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RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE

 
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RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/17/2016 5:48:11 PM   
savelius2

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		It seems like John's search was terrible for some reason. Getting blindsided by that many allied TFs with zero warning probably had some contribution to the poor showing.

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 2161
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/17/2016 7:06:56 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I have nearly 60 Emily searching from Wake to Tabitueau and they spotted no movement.

Have got the turn and am now running it.

Hope for calm deliberate movement from Dan. If not then this shall be a blood bath.


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Post #: 2162
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/17/2016 7:11:55 PM   
pws1225

 

Posts: 1166
Joined: 8/9/2010
From: Tate's Hell, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

I have nearly 60 Emily searching from Wake to Tabitueau and they spotted no movement.


It is hard to imagine how that many Allied TFs could get so close without being detected. Bad weather, bad luck, both?

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Post #: 2163
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/17/2016 7:14:21 PM   
savelius2

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		I wasn't saying your efforts to search were bad, but that the outcome was (which seems very odd). You had DL on nothing on the map and then planes and TFs everywhere right on top of your TFs, and you hadn't seen anything at all to the SW for a number of turns. Is something weird with your search settings or squadrons?

Lowpe, at least, seems to be suggesting that DL has a huge impact on many types of missions, from strategic bombing to sub attacks. It seems probable that the poor coordination was related in some fashion.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 2164
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/17/2016 7:24:53 PM   
Andav

 

Posts: 474
Joined: 5/8/2007
Status: offline
A screen shot with search arches turned on would be most helpful.

Wa

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Post #: 2165
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/17/2016 7:38:40 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225

quote:

I have nearly 60 Emily searching from Wake to Tabitueau and they spotted no movement.


It is hard to imagine how that many Allied TFs could get so close without being detected. Bad weather, bad luck, both?


Weather was pretty bad. That might be a factor.


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Post #: 2166
Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 7:40:42 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		He kept coming. Here is his one strike: 197 Fighters, 265 DB, and 190 Avengers. No coordination penalty at all...

They are met by 395 Zero.





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Post #: 2167
Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 7:44:09 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Here are the plane losses for the turn:





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 2168
RE: Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 7:53:54 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Looks like you only received, and almost nothing flew strikes... Don't keep us waiting ;)

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(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 2169
RE: Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 8:03:34 PM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		That's a small number of planes downed by flak relative to the number sent on the strike. Did not many get through your CAP, or...?

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Post #: 2170
RE: Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 8:08:48 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I was having trouble with my Allied CVEs reacting. But I then changed them all from Air Combat TFs to CVE Escort TFs and they have not reacted since. Did you have your CVE TF set to "air combat?" Nothing else to add since I am reading both.

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Post #: 2171
RE: Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 8:09:35 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		460 db’s and torp planes – 150ish shot down… Either the 310 remaining turned back, or struck home… ut oh…

< Message edited by AcePylut -- 5/17/2016 8:12:28 PM >

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Post #: 2172
RE: Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 8:15:11 PM   
Mike McCreery


Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline 		I only see 2 ground losses so if they did hit they may have hit surface ships rather that the carrier TF.

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Post #: 2173
RE: Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 8:18:58 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I was having trouble with my Allied CVEs reacting. But I then changed them all from Air Combat TFs to CVE Escort TFs and they have not reacted since. Did you have your CVE TF set to "air combat?" Nothing else to add since I am reading both.


That may be it Mr. Sutton. They were set on 'air combat.'


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Post #: 2174
RE: Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 8:22:39 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I was having trouble with my Allied CVEs reacting. But I then changed them all from Air Combat TFs to CVE Escort TFs and they have not reacted since. Did you have your CVE TF set to "air combat?" Nothing else to add since I am reading both.


Interesting.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 2175
Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 8:29:54 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		It COULD be worse. It, most likely, WILL get worse.

A STF of 5 DDs intercept Kaga's TF and are driven away quite easily by the escorts. As hoped though--it slows down my withdrawal by about 3-4 hexes.

Almost escaped attack this day. Bad weather in the morning prevented anything from the Allies. Unfortunately, weather cleared for the day.

My Zeros don't do too bad. They fought the huge escort for only a little while before penetrating to the bombers. You can see the losses detailed above. As AcePylut comments several HUNDRED do get through and perform their drops.

It COULD be worse.

Carriers
We are going to lose--at a minimum--Kaga (4 B--1TT), Zuikaku (3 B--1 TT), Hiyo (2 B--1 TT) and Nisshin (4B). None of the CVs actually sank last turn but they will this turn. We suffered lite damage to Hiryu (2B), Shokaku (1B), Akagi (1B), Mizuho (1B), and Chitose (1B).

Surface Ships
Kawachi (9 B--2TT) and Ikoma (4B) absorb nearly 100 plane's worth of attention. CL Yahagi takes 4 Bombs and a DD is sunk.

It COULD be worse (I just keep telling myself that)...

Note that with nearly 300 planes attacking they only scored 34 Bomb Hits and just THREE Torps. Pretty darned bad!

ORDERS
All ships with a reasonable chance of survival head for Marcus. This draws us away from his forces and brings him closer to my LBA.

The cripples shall serve as lunch for any pursuing STF.



I truly hope that Dan doesn't come any farther. It would genuinely surprise me if he does. If his blood is up then he will and this will grow far worse...


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 5/17/2016 8:33:25 PM >

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Post #: 2176
RE: Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 8:41:14 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I truly hope that Dan doesn't come any farther. It would genuinely surprise me if he does.


You know your opponent, do you think the plane losses/performance will bother him and cause him to pull back?



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/17/2016 8:43:10 PM >

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 2177
RE: Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 11:38:33 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Not much has gone right with this dismal performance. We need some self-examination and specific work on correcting problems.

Identified Issues:
1. There are a lot of questions I have regarding the fight and, particularly, the horrific raid coordination. I wonder if having so many CVs in each TF was the real culprit? I've never worked on this scale before. My creation of the CV TF was predicated on roughly 400 planes as Kido Butai was at the start of the war. Perhaps that is a total error.

Opinions on this? What do JFB's have to say from their experiences?

2. Air Search seems to be taken care of but it certainly wasn't. Someone mentioned having night searching going on as well. I've never done that--excepting bombardments--is this something useful as well?

3. We've already settled the CVE reaction issue. THANKS!

I can do nothing for how Dan likes to throw of TFs to soak up and pulverize strikes at non-important shipping. The key here is the learn from the fight so that myself and others can benefit.

Even though we're still trying to get away let us look to a post-battle briefing and discussion.

I have turns saved for the three previous days so we can look at just about anything.



< Message edited by John 3rd -- 5/17/2016 11:40:26 PM >

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(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 2178
RE: Battle of Wake: Day TWO - 5/17/2016 11:46:32 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

2. Air Search seems to be taken care of but it certainly wasn't. Someone mentioned having night searching going on as well. I've never done that--excepting bombardments--is this something useful as well?


^^^^^^^This^^^^^^
all those ships and all those TF's? Did you have a general idea of where Dan's carriers were? By bad luck or bad design it seems you had no situational awareness. This needs to be diagnosed, understood and fixed.

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Post #: 2179
Personal Note - 5/17/2016 11:47:53 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I have always differentiated on Dan as my opponent and Dan as a friend. We've played against each other dating back to Uncommon Valor and WitP. Think it is nearly 12-13 years total now that we've interacted and been there for each other. When my life nearly ended ten years ago he stepped up and provided extremely valuable consultation and camaraderie.

When this game stopped several years ago I took other people to task for their treatment of him and the personal nature of the commentary as well as direct attacks upon him. My 'flamboyant' playing style offends many and leads to very nasty commentary on the other side of any AAR I run. This is something I am used to. Have to admit I do enjoy it sometimes. Twisting the Allied tails can be quite entertaining! Dan did not deserve it years ago and it truly affronted me when he quit the game due to those comments.

Think what I am trying to say is that Dan and I's history goes so far back and runs so deep that we do truly call each other friend.

Keeping that in mind I found this note he just wrote me quite in line with him and his warm, Southern personality:

Thanks in part to the many whippings you've administered in this game and over the years, I suspect I know how you feel at the moment. There have been times when I felt like my hair was on fire, when I could feel my scalp tingle. I swear there have been occasions where I could even feel my hair turning gray. It is an agonizing feeling to get embroiled in a tough battle and then to have difficulty extracting your ships. Oh yes, you have had me right there more than once.

Thanks to lessons I've learned through matches with you (and some others), I know that it takes time to fully recover my sense of balance and determination. Usually, I try to fip turns fast so that I can rid my nostrils of any lingering stench. But sometimes it helps to breath for a spell.

As every Alied player who has suffered at your hands can attest, the climb back out of the gloomy days brings its own rewards and senses of accomplishment. The Japanese in your hands will always be dangerous. This has been a major battle, but it's just the first of many to come. I am under no illusions that you are on the ropes. You've been stung, so you will therefore be all the more cagey and dangerous.

I have the turn mostly done. I doubt you want it right now judging by your last email suggesting that your window for doing turns may have closed today, but send word when you're ready for it.

A class act my friends and readers. I HOPE that this game can bring you into good relationships as he and I (as well as Michael, FatR, Adm Nelson, and several others) have developed. May you be blessed as I have been by this great spirit and camaraderie!

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 5/17/2016 11:52:55 PM >

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Post #: 2180
RE: Personal Note - 5/18/2016 12:12:04 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Running turn.


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Post #: 2181
Battle off Wake: Day Three - 5/18/2016 1:32:51 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Well...I was wrong. Sort of describes this whole fight. Dan goes for the throat. I applaud him! Well done.






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< Message edited by John 3rd -- 5/18/2016 1:34:41 AM >

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Post #: 2182
RE: Battle off Wake: Day Three - 5/18/2016 1:35:53 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		That he pays for it is beyond question. His strike is met by 155 Zero that chew him up:





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< Message edited by John 3rd -- 5/18/2016 1:38:07 AM >

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Post #: 2183
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/18/2016 2:23:59 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Just said it in Dan's AAR and felt it worth repeating here Two serious bits of bad luck did you in. First your mini KB reacting into his range while your big KB stayed eight hexes away. Since the max range allowed for an Allied strike is only seven hexes, his "full" package has no other target than your one carrier TF-assuring it's total destruction in one strike. Then your carriers, sitting eight hexes away, launched a series of uncoordinated strikes at your eight hex max range. They got chewed to bits and no doubt many cripples were lost on the way home due to range. Had you been seven hexes away the probability is that Dan's strikes would have been split and you would have at least chewed up his attack force as he did to you. Probably ending the fight then and there and allowing you to escape.

And, I just think you went into the fight with a poorer DL than his-for whatever the reasons. I see that as the probably the reason for your scattered strikes more so than the size of your TFs. In the end if your CVEs did not react it would have been a whole different story. This simulation will eat your heart out at times. Probably why I love it so.

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Post #: 2184
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/18/2016 2:32:46 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Damn. Well said and written.

you are greatly appreciated Mr. Sutton!

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Post #: 2185
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/18/2016 2:34:12 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Lose Kaga, Zuikaku, Hiyo, Chiyoda, Chitose, and Mizuho. Next turn determines whether I stay in or not.


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Post #: 2186
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/18/2016 3:12:09 AM   
Mike McCreery


Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline 		I would think that after taking months of abuse and losses on the allied side that Dan might be disappointed if you suddenly decided to throw in the towel.

The Japanese are not finished after the elimination of the KB.

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Post #: 2187
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/18/2016 3:34:34 AM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		I think the future action without the benefit of the KB can be just as interesting, with success all the more dear and therefore rewarding. Keep at it.


(in reply to Mike McCreery)
Post #: 2188
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/18/2016 3:42:04 AM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Lose Kaga, Zuikaku, Hiyo, Chiyoda, Chitose, and Mizuho. Next turn determines whether I stay in or not.



I gotta call foul if you are thinking of quitting the game if the next turn goes "bad".

For years you've been able to crow Banzai everytime you marched all over the map and enjoyed the "Japan Time" and abused the Allied lack of power and ability to stand and fight. For years over multiple AAR's you've enjoyed the man, ship, plane, experience, quantity, advantages on everything, and taunted opponents right and left everytime you got to beatup something or did something that didn't happen irl. You've got to play with all your "big toys" time and time again while the Allies had nothing.

You OWE it to Dan to continue the fight until the bitter end.

The rest of this match will determine a lot. We all know you like to play aggressive and "hulk smash". Well, now you gotta prove that you can do more than beat up a high-school team with a pro team. Now you gotta prove that you can make the Allied march across the sea as painful as can be. That is your challenge.

But if you quit, now because you lost a CV match? That's the weakest of the weak. Your rep will suffer.

Who's going to want to play you if you quit? "John 3rd - yeah he's a great Jap player, loves to play with all the toys, but he'll quit if he loses his CV's". That's what you'd leave behind if you quit after what's happened the last few days.

So buck up. The war isn't over. You have tons of assets. Make the allied march to Japans doorstep as painful as possible. Learn to defend. Learn to husband your assets and strike when favorable, retreat when overwhelmed, sacrifice when need be.


Sorry if this sounds harsh - but the worst thing in the world as an Allied player is to suffer defeat after defeat, and then when the tables are turned, the Jap player up and quits.

Like Dan said, process it, and FIGHT ON! After all - it took Japan 2 nukes before they surrendered irl. You have to outplay what Japan did in real life!

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Post #: 2189
RE: Battle of Wake: Day ONE - 5/18/2016 3:49:19 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

I would think that after taking months of abuse and losses on the allied side that Dan might be disappointed if you suddenly decided to throw in the towel.

The Japanese are not finished after the elimination of the KB.


Seriously true. +1

(in reply to Mike McCreery)
Post #: 2190
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