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German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 7/28/2015 10:52:25 AM   
Gripen

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 7/23/2015
Status: offline 		At the moment I'm playing a lot of GWTC and what I'm finding out is that VS the AI it seems the British tanks are much more accurate. The first few times I was like ok bad luck but I can literally play battles over and over the same happens, even when I properly outflank them. I need 3 Panzer IVH on one British tank, be it Cromwell or Churchill.

Is this something that is a known issue? Because to me it seems the IVH must be at least on par with the British tanks if they aren't better?

I'm running the v1.02 steam version. If you need more info let me know :)

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 7/28/2015 3:37:54 PM   
Kanov


Posts: 312
Joined: 5/21/2012
From: México
Status: offline 		The pz4 has very thin armor, even a mortar can manage to disable one as I got the gunner of one of my panzer 4 killed after a constant barrage of 3 mortar tubes which interestingly enough, the AI kept pounding it until it expended all its mortar ammo, so the AI knows too that pz 4 are made of paper

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 7/31/2015 8:14:01 AM   
Housies

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 3/4/2014
Status: offline 		The Panzer IV get's shot pretty easily indeed. In my multiplayer games against british churchill tanks it's usually 2:1 ratio.

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 7/31/2015 10:02:29 AM   
Gripen

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 7/23/2015
Status: offline 		I had a game versus a lot of Shermans, no problem at all hitting them, switch back to Churchills and I'll have to be as careful as I can be. Flank them, quickly roll out take one shot, hope not being killed and move back. And kinda repeat that... One on one, won't work AT ALL.

But ok... I guess I'll just have to live with it. I'm kind of using them as infantry support and avoid contact with other Churchill's as much as possible and just hope to take out HQ units so the moral drops.

Also Tigers vs Churchills, kinda the same thing but they do hit a lot more.

< Message edited by Gripen -- 7/31/2015 11:04:26 AM >

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 7/31/2015 11:03:42 AM   
Housies

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gripen

I had a game versus a lot of Shermans, no problem at all hitting them, switch back to Churchills and I'll have to be as careful as I can be. Flank them, quickly roll out take one shot, hope not being killed and move back. And kinda repeat that... One on one, won't work AT ALL.

But ok... I guess I'll just have to live with it. I'm kind of using them as infantry support and avoid contact with other Churchill's as much as possible and just hope to take out HQ units so the moral drops.

Also Tigers vs Churchills, kinda the same thing but they do hit a lot more.


Same here. Don't know if it's historical but it sure helps in game balancing.

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 8/15/2015 8:05:22 PM   
Kanov


Posts: 312
Joined: 5/21/2012
From: México
Status: offline 		To add fuel to this













But really, those 3 Panzer IV fired at least 5 shots against the firefly.

In another ocassion, all the platoon was destroyed by two shermans, pretty embarassing, I don't know why Germany contiuned to produce the Panzer IV if it was such a piece of junk.

< Message edited by Kanov -- 8/15/2015 9:08:55 PM >

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 8/15/2015 8:31:58 PM   
Kanov


Posts: 312
Joined: 5/21/2012
From: México
Status: offline 		Here it is the platoon that was destroyed by two shermans.

3x Pz 4 and a StuG. The Panthers are from another BG that has already advanced to the next map.


imagen

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 8/17/2015 11:28:11 AM   
Housies

 

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Status: offline 		That's really bad luck. The panzers should not perform that bad. BUt it can happen indeed.

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 8/17/2015 11:01:15 PM   
SteveMcClaire

 

Posts: 4472
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		The stock game has the same base accuracy for most tank guns, and the crew experience and morale ratings are usually the same for both side (the SS tanks can have higher experience but I have not sorted through all the unitstructure data and forcepools to see what BGs get those.)

The only difference I can see in the screenshot-engagement is that the Sherman is firing its smoke discharger. Once that goes off, all tanks firing through the smoke have a low chance to make an accurate hit. While the 3 vs. 1 engagement should still result in a win for the 3 (as it did) there is going to be more random luck involved when they're firing at each other through smoke.

Steve

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 8/18/2015 6:47:44 PM   
Kanov


Posts: 312
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From: México
Status: offline 		I'll buy that.

Just had two consecutive battles with no losses for the Panzer 4.

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 8/22/2015 9:09:33 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		the MK 4 is a superior tank to the Sherman. the mk 4 has a better gun than the Sherman and the Churchill. the german 75 mm has much more punch and accuracie and should kill at long ranges easily. the mk 4 has good armour and there not junk...they were the main battle tank for the germans thru most of the war.the Churchill in this game is an up armoured version and is hard for a mk 4 to kill. the panthers and tigers should be able to kill this Mark of Churchill tho, altho the game doesn't reflect this well. the mk 4's should make a better account of themselves in this game but they don't for some reason. one reason is the cant hit the broad side of a barn syndrome that matrix has taken since TLD.
its a shame really.

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Post #: 11
RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 8/22/2015 9:14:32 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		oh ya...and smoke dischargers...the germans used them more than the allies did. why is it most allied tanks in GWTC have them now? [ LSA too ] I don't recall shermans and FF's having smoke dichargers at all. the Mk 4 and tigers did tho.

< Message edited by STIENER -- 8/22/2015 10:14:55 AM >

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 8/24/2015 7:09:32 PM   
SteveMcClaire

 

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Status: offline 		M4 Shermans produced mid-war (I don't have exact dates handy but I think it was much of 1943 and 44) had a short 2" smoke mortar built in. It fired through a hole in the turret roof.

My understanding was that the Germans tried external smoke-dischargers on their tank turrets in 1942-43 but removed them because the smoke candles would be set off by small arms or artillery fire, which left the tank (and crew) stuck in a cloud of smoke until it burned out. At least some German tanks produced later in the war had built in smoke dischargers (via the Nahverteidigungswaffe.)

Gateway to Caen is a fairly early Normandy time-frame. Both sides are still fighting with late-1943 equipment and organizations, for the most part. So I think the smoke discharger availability in the game is roughly correct.

Steve

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Post #: 13
RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 8/24/2015 9:06:36 PM   
vobbnobb

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

the MK 4 is a superior tank to the Sherman. the mk 4 has a better gun than the Sherman and the Churchill. the german 75 mm has much more punch and accuracie and should kill at long ranges easily. the mk 4 has good armour and there not junk...they were the main battle tank for the germans thru most of the war.the Churchill in this game is an up armoured version and is hard for a mk 4 to kill. the panthers and tigers should be able to kill this Mark of Churchill tho, altho the game doesn't reflect this well. the mk 4's should make a better account of themselves in this game but they don't for some reason. one reason is the cant hit the broad side of a barn syndrome that matrix has taken since TLD.
its a shame really.


A sherman could easily take out the mark iv with a frontal shot and with a flank shot not much armor. The earlier mark iv's easy target. Later when the mark iv upgraded to a high velocity 75 watch out sherman! I think they were equal, mark iv was I believe a hair better.

< Message edited by vobbnobb -- 8/24/2015 10:17:33 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 8/25/2015 1:43:06 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		the german tanks don't seem to pop smoke at all in GWTC and LSA but the allied tanks all do now. its an advantage to the tank that pops smoke when its fired at. it would have been nice to see the option for both sides as both sides have the capability historically.

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Post #: 15
RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 11/2/2015 4:44:03 PM   
CGGrognard


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/3/2013
From: USA
Status: offline 		Jumping in late to this discussion, but I must add this context to armor on both sides. In a recent battle, I had a Tiger and a Panther square off against a Churchill Crocidille. The Tiger and Panther and even the Crocodille scored several hits. Only after a couple minutes of exchanging fire was the Crocodille destroyed. The Tiger had is right armor exposed, while the Panther had its left armor exposed. The Crocodille had its front armor exposed.

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 11/2/2015 4:54:06 PM   
vobbnobb

 

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/23/2013
Status: offline 		You have to tank in account the crews experience, if a tanks crew member is killed say the driver, and a new member joins the crew he is going to turn weakest armor to enemy, drive backwards etc and make mistakes like that in the first battles because he doesn't know better. (unless he is in command team circle?)

If the gunner is killed and is replaced by a greenhorn he is going to make horrid shots.

If an elite loader is killed the replacement will take ages to reload a shell.

if radio op is killed then replacement wont shoot mg that well.

If a commander is killed I think moral for crew drops hard

This is what I have seen in all CC campaigns. That's why crew bolts off so fast (and small guys anyways) when tank is hit, so they can pilot a new tanks with their current skills, which did happen in ww2.

Keeping a command guy or team near that greenhorn tank will help them a lot! Better yet try not to let your tanks even take casualties.

< Message edited by vobbnobb -- 11/2/2015 6:03:13 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 11/3/2015 2:37:51 PM   
CGGrognard


Posts: 594
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From: USA
Status: offline 		Good point vobbnobb. Crew stasis was something that I didn't consider as these tanks exchanged shots. My big concern was losing the Tiger or Panther to the Crocidille.

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 5/24/2016 1:58:57 AM   
Gullyfoyle

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 5/24/2016
Status: offline 		Hi I am new to the game. I have recently had 3 instances that when I asked my PZK IV's to fire on a Churchill III, twice from the front and once from flank, the crews replied "we can't hurt that". All the distances were 75 metres and in. I assume the PZKV IV are equipped with KwK 40 which should be able to penetrate at that distance.

Am I missing something here?

Thanks

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Post #: 19
RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 5/24/2016 8:18:21 PM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		well..your not really missing anything per say. GWTC has a few issues for sure. tank pathing being a huge one. as far as your mk 4 getting a "we can't hurt that" against the Churchill mk 3....ive had that sometimes....usually with the crock tho. the crock is VERY heavily armored. its a mk 5?

in GWTC ive found that the shermans and mk 4's are pretty evenly matched the churchills and the mk 4's too....mostly. it can go either way in a tank duel with them.you have good battles and bad battles. ive played about 8 GC so far H2H.

the interesting thing with the Churchill mk 3 with the 6 pdr gun is it appears to have the APDS round and ive seen it take out a tiger or a panther...3 times now. [ im using them more to fight cats now ]

all I can tell you is in GWTC weird **** happens all the time in the tank duels.
the tank pathing is the biggest thing...total BS...you wait and see what your tanks do in the long run......FN AMAZING....

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 5/26/2016 4:21:17 PM   
Gullyfoyle

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the feedback. I just had a game in which I had 4 Tigers blasting on a Croc, 2 from the from the front and one from each side and it took about 6 hits to take it out. And yes I am discovering the tank pathing is very bad. Cheers

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 5/29/2016 7:25:13 AM   
Jagdtiger14


Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline 		The Churchill should not be able to do much against the Panzer IV, etc...while the German AT guns can knock them out.
Check this out (39min to 42min):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or9J1uBiJr4

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 5/29/2016 11:39:53 PM   
Gullyfoyle

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 5/24/2016
Status: offline 		Thanks for the video. I'll watch it at work tomorrow....:)

I just had the same "we can't hurt that" from 2 PZKIV's firing on the side of a Sherman V (M4A4?) from 80 metres. I know Matrix is probably trying to balance the game but that is a bit much.

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 5/30/2016 8:49:28 PM   
SteveMcClaire

 

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Status: offline 		Gullyfoyle,

Just looking at the data files, the Churchills all have quite good side armor. Not enough to stop a Pz IVH's 75mm, but if the target Churchill were at an angle (which uses the front-side columns in the data file) rather than broadside on, this could be enough to go over the threshold and give you a 'can't hurt that.'

Steve

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 6/1/2016 4:15:47 AM   
Jagdtiger14


Posts: 1686
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From: Miami Beach
Status: offline 		Ok, so lets say the problem for the Panzer IV's in this/these situation(s) is that the firing angle is front-side. The report above mentions that the 6pdr gun is taking out Tigers/Panthers...unless its a rear-end shot...maybe, but the 6pdr didn't have the penetration capability.

Its sounds like to me this is an AI cheat to keep things interesting. I think in real life the Allies called in air support, or medium/heavy artillery to deal with this.

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 6/1/2016 5:08:15 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		not sure why gullyfoyle is having issues with the mk 4 shooting at the side of a Sherman. as steve says the angle could be an issue but it shouldn't be against a Sherman. my experiences with the mk 4 vs Sherman is that there very evenly matched. ive seen lots of weird stuff happen in tank duels in GWTC tho.

jagdtiger14 ...the issue with the 6 pdr vs the tigers and panthers. we discussed this in another thread or maybe this one. at the time of this GC in GWTC the allied 6 pdr had the APDS round. the 17 pdr did not yet have it yet. the 6 pdr with the APDS rd was capable of knocking out the tigers and panthers.
in GWTC I have had good success with the 6 pdr a/t guns vs the cats and a few success's with the Churchill with the 6 pdr vs the cats.

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RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 6/1/2016 6:45:51 AM   
Jagdtiger14


Posts: 1686
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From: Miami Beach
Status: offline 		Stiener: I think that discussion you had was with someone else. No matter. The British APDS round for the 6 pounder was very excellent! The problem was availability. I read somewhere that all British tank special ammo was 4 rounds. Churchills and Comets had 4 rounds of APDS. The AT guns probably had a much larger supply of APDS. Also, there were trajectory issues with the APDS, which were solved later (not sure of the date on that, but probably after Caen).

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Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

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Post #: 27
RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 6/1/2016 9:14:30 AM   
STIENER

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline 		jagdtiger14: I didn't mean you and I had this discussion before...I meant to say that it has been discussed before ;-)
I believe the availibilty of the APDS for the 6 PDR in the GWTC time frame is good. yes the tanks didn't have as many rds as the a/t guns. yes they had trajectory issues but those were solved real fast by the gunners themselves. they were issued the APDS with no training or info on how to use it and the 1st rds fired were messed up trajectory wise. they soon figured out what the issue was and compensated for it.

Steve: I had the same issue as gullyfoyle tonite....I had a panther shooting at the side of a Sherman [ no angle ] at around 60 to 80 m and had a black circle with cant hurt that. is there a too close range for some tanks?

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Post #: 28
RE: German tanks vs British tanks, seems odd - 6/7/2016 8:01:55 PM   
SteveMcClaire

 

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Status: offline 		Steiner,

No, 60-80m should not be too close. Did the Panther have HE loaded at the time (i.e. had just been shooting at infantry?) Was the Sherman behind a wall or hedgerow, perhaps? I haven't reviewed the terrain protection data values in GTC but that's the only other thing I can think of that might have caused a "Can't Hurt That" for a Panther vs. a Sherman from any angle.

Steve

(in reply to STIENER)
Post #: 29
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