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Life without 5th FBD - 8/24/2015 9:17:35 AM   
MishaTX


Posts: 79
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline 		So, having stared at the screen for days now, counting hexes and MPs, planning advances to coincide with the forwards march of FBDs, I decided to throw it out there (after having run a search to see if the question had already been answered):

How do y'all use the 4 FBDs left to us, and what routes, roughly, do you make them follow?

I keep finding myself one FBD short all of a sudden. OK, so I know it still comes in, only not until May of '42 when it's no longer needed. Or at least not as badly needed.

The best I can come up with is:

Tilsit-Taurage-Dünaburg-Pskov-Leningrad

Kaunas-Minsk-Smolensk-Vyazma

Brest Litovsk-Baranovichi-Bobruisk-Gomel

Chelm-Kovel-Rovno-Shepetovka-Smela-Krivoi Rog

But that still leaves a big hole in the far South along the Black Sea.

< Message edited by MishaTX -- 8/24/2015 10:25:54 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/24/2015 1:05:47 PM   
VigaBrand

 

Posts: 303
Joined: 12/19/2014
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Hi,
here you can see the start from the FBD in the South. Rail the one from the Lvov area in the first turn to the Border and than you can start the repair in T2 and you will be faster.





Attachment (1)

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(in reply to MishaTX)
Post #: 2
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/24/2015 1:36:02 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		My 'trick' is to move a couple FBDs early in the game.

The furthest north FBD moves from Kretinga (1 hex NE of Memel) to Siauliei (9 hexes east). That is easier for me given the way my movement/combats go.

By the same token, the FBD west of Kaunas is going to move TO Siauliei starting on Turn 2. From Slaulei, one FBD goes toward Riga-Cesis-Valmera-Valga-Pskov

On Turn 2, the other FBD at Siauliei goes this route:
Siauliei-Radviliskis (1 hex SE)-Daugapils-Polotsk-Vitebsk

You will find this route faster, and there is a very good reason not to go to Minsk at all: It is too far away from the Land Bridge to do much good supplying your troops. By coming from the Northwest, you get to use the Baltic cost longer. By piggy-backing on the other FBD, the turn you spent moving it north is paid for without much cost.

In the south, I use the FBD west of Brest-Litovks ONLY for two turns. Just as the FBD west of Kaunas, if you take a route along the northern edge of the Pripyet marshes, you're still doing a terrible job of supplying Army Group Center, and you're taking much longer to get to the Dnieper there. Since you re-prioritized the Kaunas FBD, the Brest Litovks one can also move (but it has to wait until Turn 3 anyway for Hungary to get into the action).

So on Turn 3, I start moving it. It may not be able to move through Hungary, it may. By Turn 4, you want it joining the 11th Army FBD in working a path from Romania to Vinnitsa. But at Vinnitsa itself, once the rail network is there, I splet these two. One heads toward Cherkassy. One heads toward Kiev.

In the South, you're just going to have to suck it up because it takes longer.
I like to go to Cherkassy-D-town-Stalino. By the time you get to Stalino, you are on your own with Rail. Fill your needs.

The one bound for Kiev I send specifically because it is the shortest way to Kursk. By Winter, Kursk is in the center of the map. You can get to Kursk in enough time that you can build the rail north toward Tula (which will help army group center) or you can head south toward Kharkov. Depending on what your other two FBDs are doing north and south of Tula/Kharkov, you can link up the networks so that you have two avenues of support around Kursk.

Sometimes the fastest way requires you to sacrifice a turn of using the FBDs.

One last note: People forget the importance of the line from Vinnitsa to Lvov. You need to let automated FBDs fill in that line (I go so far as to use the RHG command HQs loaded with 5 rail construction battalions to help fill in important rear areas over time). Try to ensure this gets completed. It saves time for Germany to move reinforcements.

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Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to VigaBrand)
Post #: 3
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/24/2015 6:06:23 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		FBD-1 rails to Ungeny on the Romanian Border and repairs to Beltsy to Kotovsk to D-Town to Stalino to Rostov.

FBD-3 rails to 47,46 and repairs the first hex going to Riga, FBD-4 then does more hexes towards Riga.
Turn 2 they both RR towards Riga. Turn 3+ FBD-4 RR’s to Poskv and turns south at DNO to link up with FBD-3 line headed for Tula. After they link up FBD-3 heads for Tula and FBD-4 heads for Orel to link up with FBD-2

FBD-3 turn 3 heads for Daugavpils starting from the swamp hex 54,42. From there go to Vitebsk and on to Tula.

FBD-2 RR’s to Kaunas to Vilnius. Then head to link up with FBD-3 at Daugavpils and help RR to Vitebsk. Once at Vitebsk RR north and link up with FBD-4. Once linked up rail FBD-2 to D-Town and RR to Kursk to Orel to link up with FBD-4.

Why this way?

It’s the shortest to North/Center/South and it makes sure AGN/AGC can not be cut by partisans because both lines are looped together 2 times and come winter AGS is looped with AGC also. So its next to impossible to have rail lines cut even during blizzard.

Also I put 12 construction units in AGS/OKH/AGC and move 1 to Gomel, 1 to Keiv and one to Nikolaev. This will speed up AI RR. The Romanian HQ can also be used. By winter even the south will have several loops.


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Post #: 4
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/24/2015 8:24:14 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		Do you get more than 6 rail hexes (Baltic), 4 otherwise, repaired per turn, per rail line, in this manner?

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 5
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/25/2015 1:35:08 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Do you get more than 6 rail hexes (Baltic), 4 otherwise, repaired per turn, per rail line, in this manner?


You can get 7 some times as things don't work as designed and can not heheheh very old issue with RR that can not be fixed as it simply moves from one cross roads to the next/ before morveals time



< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/25/2015 2:39:06 AM >

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Post #: 6
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/25/2015 5:19:16 AM   
MishaTX


Posts: 79
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline 		Wow. That's some excellent advice from some of the best WitE players around! Thanks!

I guess my "problem" has mainly been one of being afraid to NOT use an FBD for even a single solitary second, failing to see that a turn spent moving it to a GOOD position is more than made up for later, compared to forcing it to repair where it happens to start the campaign. 10 rail hexes where you need them later on is still better than 30 where you DON'T. Much like shooting, really. One bullet in your target's shoulder is still far better than ten in the wall behind him.

Thanks to all of you for enlightening me on this. This game is so huge (and I love it for it) and keeping track of it all is going to take a bit of learning. And it will be great fun doing so. But getting your supply lines at least started out right as the German is vital or it's game over before you even have a chance to realize you've lost.

If I'm understanding you right, Pelton, (I've been cross-referencing between the forum and the game map while reading this thread), you're basically focusing 3 out of the 4 FBDs in the North/North Center and then leaving the fourth to clear up a main line in the South, right? That makes sense, seeing as how the main effort is likely to be in that area and how, once those three get closer to Moscow, will be able to spread out in any direction they like, thanks to the layout of the Soviet rail system. And I like the piggy-backing system to speed up the progress of your main line(s). I wasn't sure if it would work due to the hex limitations on how far you can be from an already repaired line (previous turn) and still be able to repair another.

Also, thanks for the hint on how to use the "random" RR done by the Construction Btns. I never quite could figure out what to use the AG HQs and OKH for, now I finally have a use for them.

Vigabrand: Just want to make sure that your picture is a suggestion of two alternative starting points for the B-L FBD. Or are you suggesting railing two FBDs to Romania?

Heliodorus: Thanks also for another good use for the B-L FBD. Not to mention the Lvov one. You send the Lvov one to Romania as well, right? That one was giving me a headache since it's pretty useless where it's at. Moving it towards Lvov, although an important and conveniently direct line to where you want to be later, requires you to pretty much give up creating a pocket in that area, which, to me, would be inexcusable. You send the B-L one to Romania as well? Also, by "using the B-L FBD for only two turns", what do you use it for? Where does it repair, if anywhere, before moving to Romania?

Once again, thanks so much for the advice! This forum is every bit as awesome as the game.

On a side note (wholly unrelated): That Pioneer Btn with the SEC in AGN... Seriously? Is there any reason at all to not immediately transfer that one to where it might do some good? Such as with an actual COMBAT unit? What was the OKH thinking?

< Message edited by MishaTX -- 8/25/2015 6:20:28 AM >

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 7
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/25/2015 6:14:31 AM   
VigaBrand

 

Posts: 303
Joined: 12/19/2014
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Hi,
it is two options, but as Pelton sad, the one in the South is better for a fast rush to D-Town. You need this rush, to catch some industry there.


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Post #: 8
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/27/2015 5:19:13 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Also, thanks for the hint on how to use the "random" RR done by the Construction Btns. I never quite could figure out what to use the AG HQs and OKH for, now I finally have a use for them.

You can use the HQs to basicly pull the RR in the direction you want.

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Post #: 9
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/28/2015 2:26:57 AM   
folgra

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 7/26/2015
Status: offline 		Kind of weird having OKH in the middle of Russia.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 10
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/28/2015 4:09:13 AM   
MishaTX


Posts: 79
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Also, thanks for the hint on how to use the "random" RR done by the Construction Btns. I never quite could figure out what to use the AG HQs and OKH for, now I finally have a use for them.

You can use the HQs to basicly pull the RR in the direction you want.

quote:

You can use the HQs to basicly pull the RR in the direction you want


Another useful tip. Again, I generally used them as way behind the lines depots for reinforcements until I could march them up to a corps HQ. so many details and so much depth to this game as you learn. Now not only do I have something to use them for and a reason to move them forward, it's a reason that makes logical and historical sense.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 11
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 8/28/2015 4:32:57 AM   
MishaTX


Posts: 79
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: folgra

Kind of weird having OKH in the middle of Russia.


You can use OKC up there instead. To me it still gives me a logical reason to move it at all.

Saying what I've already said elsewhere: what I really love about this masterpiece of a game is that you can jump right into it and start moving divisions while achieving historical results (my favorite example is that I, with just the knowledge of how C&C and supply works from real life, could jump right in and duplicate v. Manstein's advance to Dvinsk, something that other otherwise fantastic east front games won't allow for "balance" reasons). You'll then get clobbered by a human opponent if he understands the game better than you, but you can DO it.

Take Unity of Command, a GREAT beer and pretzels game with a lot of fun and challenge that I love, but you can't. You simply don't have the MPs for it.

In WitE you can just go for it and have fun being the best German OKH you can be and enjoy beating the Soviets senseless in the early game, only to find yourself at a distinct disadvantage later on because you missed the fine print. And then you learn from that and, thanks to this excellent forum and the wealth of additional tools available, learn where you effed up so you're ready for the next game.

But you will still have fun in your first attempt. No "I'll never get this" barrier.

For a game with this kind of depth, that's pretty amazing, if you ask me.

(in reply to folgra)
Post #: 12
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 6/2/2016 4:37:42 AM   
Ramblinman

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/5/2005
Status: offline 		A Question about the map in post #2. I am unable to rail the FBD into Romania on Turn 1. Because of this, I can only barely get it across the border at Ungeny on Turn 2; no actual rail repair until Turn 3.

So, I am always 1 turn behind the schedule depicted in the post #2 graphic.

Is this the result of a patch, or am I doing something wrong?

TIA

(in reply to MishaTX)
Post #: 13
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 6/2/2016 5:26:23 AM   
VigaBrand

 

Posts: 303
Joined: 12/19/2014
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Hi,
you must reach the Romanian Border in Turn 1 and let your FBD "in" the trains near the Romanian Border. Than you could rail it in the second turn to Ungeny and should be able to repair one hex.

And T1 in the red Hex is T2 in the game, but the first turn you could repair something in the South.

< Message edited by VigaBrand -- 6/2/2016 5:29:12 AM >

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RE: Life without 5th FBD - 1/13/2017 6:55:52 AM   
wktr8222

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 11/17/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Do you get more than 6 rail hexes (Baltic), 4 otherwise, repaired per turn, per rail line, in this manner?


You can get 7 some times as things don't work as designed and can not heheheh very old issue with RR that can not be fixed as it simply moves from one cross roads to the next/ before morveals time



How can i repair more than 6/4 hexes using two fbds on one rail line?

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 15
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 1/13/2017 11:00:30 AM   
Hunter63

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 6/14/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wktr8222


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Do you get more than 6 rail hexes (Baltic), 4 otherwise, repaired per turn, per rail line, in this manner?


You can get 7 some times as things don't work as designed and can not heheheh very old issue with RR that can not be fixed as it simply moves from one cross roads to the next/ before morveals time





How can i repair more than 6/4 hexes using two fbds on one rail line?


I am a RL friend of Pelton so I will answer your question with a quote from

German Players Hand Book for WitE 1.0, authored by Pelton

Rail Repair:

FDB-1 turn one gets on rail and heads for Romania.
Turn 2 it can RR starting in hex 67,102 or hex if Russia is blocking 60,95 then head for 67,98 then to 74,101 then to D-town 100,94 from there to Stalino area.

FBD-3 turn 1 rails to 47,46 gets of rails and repairs hex 47,45 then FBD-4 RR up that line 51,44. Turn 2 FDB-4 RR the next 3 hexes and then FBD-3 RR the swamp then FDB-4 RR the line headed for Riga then to Pskov then hex 80,30 It then heads south to link up with FBD-2. Once they link up its free to go where needed generally towards Moscow.

Then FBD-3 RR the line headed for 65, 43 then on to Smolensk then 96, 54 and turns south to link up with southern front.

FBD-2 heads for Vilnius then turns north to hex 65, 43. At this pt. it assists FBD-3 then turns north and links up with FBD-4. Once it has linked with FBD-4 it is railed to the south on FDB-1 line. Then starts RR starting at hex 91, 92 and heads for Kharkov then to Orel to link up with FBD-3.

Why the loops? It’s next to impossible for partisans to cut lines because there is 2 ways or more to get supplies to the front. I also put 8-10 con units in OKH and AGN,AGS,AGC and move units to areas I want linked up like Kiev,
Nikolayev and hex 71, 35. You will need to do this by turn 10ish. Start with AGS-10 then AGN-8 then AGC-8 then OKH-8

There are several areas of the map where rail lines split, where they split in some cases you can repair more then the # per turn. This has been an known issue for years, if they patch out one area another opens up.

Most of the Old Guard of players who don't play any more knew each one and how to turn them on as you RR. Some times you RR 3 hexes on a line and the following turn you can RR 7, so you can do 10 in 2 turns instead of 8 or far more in Riga area.

The Old Guard play tested the first 7 turns 100's of hours (both sides just not German)so they knew the game better then the people who write the code.

Which is not their fault. 1.0 was done on very old code by todays standards, so they really worked wonders with what they had.

2.0 should be far better.



< Message edited by Hunter63 -- 1/13/2017 11:01:41 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 1/13/2017 11:24:46 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		In a future version you may see a romanian rail repair group with limited rail repair capacity that will be removed in 8/41

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Post #: 17
RE: Life without 5th FBD - 1/13/2017 11:44:55 AM   
wktr8222

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 11/17/2016
Status: offline 		Thanks, I'll try next time. FBD north of pripyat marsh isn't very efficient.

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 18
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