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M1 Abrams(HA)

 
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M1 Abrams(HA) - 4/23/2016 7:04:28 AM   
MTTODD

 

Posts: 227
Joined: 12/1/2011
Status: offline 		What sort of protection does the M1 (HA) provide v missile fire ?

I only ask, as I have just seen many of my units get wiped out from long range missile fire(not sure what they were).

Was expecting the best US tank to be able to provide some level of protection against Soviet missiles.

Many thanks.
Post #: 1
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 4/23/2016 9:30:58 AM   
Rincovsk


Posts: 66
Joined: 3/13/2016
Status: offline 		I am not an expert here, but the Abrams is not invencible, besides that kills depends on a huge amount on different situations and conditions. Be on a bad spot, stressed by combat and spotted by an ATGM, you are doomed. Did those missile fires come from T-80U ATGMs? Those are deadly. One of the few advantages on the Soviet side. It takes a little time to learn the game mechanics, but is a fantastic game. Expect to feel the frustrations and pain that is involved in a War. Best.

(in reply to MTTODD)
Post #: 2
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 4/23/2016 3:18:58 PM   
Stimpak


Posts: 632
Joined: 8/23/2015
From: BC, Canada
Status: offline 		Depends on the situation. Your tanks are likely being lost to hits from the sides or rear. If they are from the front, then it may be due to these units "falling out"
A real life example occurred recently: A T-90 in Syria was frontally hit by a unknown TOW variant, but the tank itself survived without being penetrated. However, the missile likely struck the gunner's optics which rendered the tank combat ineffective or "mission killed".
A similar thing may be happening to your Abrams tanks: Hits on the optics, treads, cannon, can knock the tank out without outright destroying it. That, or the crew could simply be panicking and abandoning the tank when it is actually just fine.

(in reply to Rincovsk)
Post #: 3
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 4/23/2016 4:34:45 PM   
battlerbritain

 

Posts: 205
Joined: 11/2/2013
Status: offline 		Agreed.

The ATGM on a T-80U uses a HEAT type penetrator and the amount of armour a HEAT can penetrate is directly proportional to the diameter of the round, ie calibre, in this case 125mm.

Even using a tandem warhead won't increase the penetration capability by that much.

So a T-80U ATGM is really a normal HEAT round but more accurate.

I would expect the Chobham armour on the front of an M-1HA to be proof against a 125mm HEAT round.

Apparently a Challenger 2 in Iraq was hit by a Milan ATGM with no effect, and the armour on an M-1HA is as good if not better and a Milan could penetrate as much if not more than a T-80U's ATGM.

(in reply to Stimpak)
Post #: 4
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 4/23/2016 4:43:39 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		The particulars of the shot are a Soviet AT-11 Sniper being fired from a T-80U. The Sniper has a RHA penetration rate of about 700mm and a tandem warhead to degrade composite and ERA type armors. The M1A1(HA) sits at about 620mm RHA frontal versus kinetic and about 1000mm RHA versus HEAT on the turret. The 1000mm gets cut down by the tandem warhead and starts to make this about a 30% kill versus a fallout if hit. The M1's hull armor is much less and a hit there would be a kill in most cases. It's hard to drop exact numbers here not knowing the state of the units in the fight. There are many variables in play at any given time. As Stimpak points out, most of those "lost" M1s are probably fall outs and not hard kills. Either way in a scenario that's a lost tank and sucks, but the fall outs are more likely to return to battle another day in the war.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Stimpak)
Post #: 5
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 4/23/2016 7:23:10 PM   
MTTODD

 

Posts: 227
Joined: 12/1/2011
Status: offline 		Hi,

Just to clarify, when you say the '1000mm gets cut down by the tandem warhead', are you saying that it leaves 500mm armour ?

And because the Snipe penetrates 700mm, that means there is a 30% chance of a kill, and 70% chance of a fallout ?

Which would mean you are saying that the AT-11 missile is guarantee to take out a M1 (HA), be it kill or fallout.

Many thanks.




(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 6
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 4/23/2016 8:07:45 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Sorry, the reduction is not 50%. I don't have the exact cut down handy. There is no guarantee of a kill/fall out. Just a good chance it can create a kill or fall out and in most cases the heavy armor will limit a damaging hit to a fall out. The game only shows hits that result in kills or fall outs. That's a limitation on the way the combat engine does things between certain code modules we have right now. So there are a number of "hits" that result in no effect to combat performance.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to MTTODD)
Post #: 7
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 5/13/2016 8:02:34 PM   
KungPao


Posts: 333
Joined: 4/25/2016
From: Red China
Status: offline 		This game simulate the chance to hit side armor right? Although T80U's formation is 5km away from your M1's formation, there is still a chance to hit the side, one or two M1's turret might point to other direction try to kill targets there, or make a right/left turn to pass an obstacle.

tandem warhead is good to against ERA armor, but from what I know I don't think it has advantages against composite armor. Most part of M1A1(HA)'s front have more than 1000mm RHA vs HEAT type ammo. But there are 3 week spots, Commander hatch, Front upper hull and gun mantlet.

Even the enemy didn't achieve the penetration, they are still be able to disable your M1's gun, knock out the track, make your M1 incapable to keep in the battle

_____________________________

Sir? Do you want to order a Kung Pao Chicken or a Kung Fu Chicken?

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 8
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 5/14/2016 11:21:32 AM   
MTTODD

 

Posts: 227
Joined: 12/1/2011
Status: offline 		I don't think Capn Darwin was referring to side hits when he gave the percentage chance of a kill.

I expected the frontal armour of the M1 (HA) version to offer better protection v the AT-11.

(in reply to KungPao)
Post #: 9
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 6/8/2016 9:45:22 PM   
chromdome35

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 7/27/2009
Status: offline 		test

(in reply to MTTODD)
Post #: 10
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 6/9/2016 12:07:26 AM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		B+, you passed.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to chromdome35)
Post #: 11
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 6/9/2016 4:15:21 AM   
chromdome35

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 7/27/2009
Status: offline 		Sorry about that, dealing with some anti spam system this forum has implemented.

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 12
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 6/9/2016 4:16:41 AM   
chromdome35

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 7/27/2009
Status: offline 		I'm new to this game, but not new to war gaming.

I am playing the Meeting of the Titans Scenario as NATO

Fairly early on I have my forces deployed along the west and north ridgelines creating a large open kill zone in the valley below. My forces are on higher ground and in cover.

The first large contingent of T80's is moving up the road and my forces have spent two cycles firing at it. It is hard to fathom that over 20 M1's and 20 Bradley's could only kill 3 T80's while the T80's have killed 7 M1's and several Bradleys.

The current engagement ranges are from 2500-4000 Meters.

Weather is clear with visibility at 5000M

Since when did the T80 become a super tank and when did NATO forces become so inaccurate and ineffective?

(in reply to chromdome35)
Post #: 13
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 6/9/2016 4:24:06 AM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Which version are you running? There were some issues in the code with 2.0.10. The 2.0.11 betas have many fixes. You can get those on our website.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to chromdome35)
Post #: 14
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 6/9/2016 4:30:24 AM   
chromdome35

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 7/27/2009
Status: offline 		I bought the game via steam 3 days ago.

2.0.10bs according to the main menu

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 15
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 6/9/2016 4:36:48 AM   
chromdome35

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 7/27/2009
Status: offline 		I'm looking at your website and see several different BETA patches available.

2.0.11.5 production
2.0.11.5 Debug
2.0.11.4 Open Beta
2.0.11.2 Open Beta

Which one should I pick to update the game that was installed via Steam?

Are there instructions for using the beta patch on a steam install?

(in reply to chromdome35)
Post #: 16
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 6/9/2016 1:07:12 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Steam will use betas if you set the beta opt in on in the game's Steam settings. If you are comfortable with applying patches in Steam folders (unzipping files into folders) you can get them from our OTS website and do them. Our site is usually ahead of Steam with updates. From our site you will want 11.2 and the 11.5 production.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to chromdome35)
Post #: 17
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 6/9/2016 2:02:39 PM   
chromdome35

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 7/27/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks, I pulled the beta production exe patch and installed it last night.

Works fine so far.

I restarted the scenario and tried the same strategy, it was a Soviet slaughter. At the end of the scenario, the soviets had 4 almost destroyed units left on the entire map. Another cycle and I think I could have gotten them all.

I lost one complete troop of M1's and a couple of my other M1 troops suffered 1 or 2 losses.

In my opinion, a much more realistic outcome.

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 18
RE: M1 Abrams(HA) - 6/9/2016 2:29:41 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		Update 10 had some code get mangled in a "clean-up" just before release. That messed up some combat code. In fixing those bugs we found and fixed one day 0 bug that was incorrectly calculating direct fire accuracy beyond 2000m. A few other minor tweaks in the 11beta as well. We feel the outcomes are very good right now. Thanks for posting.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to chromdome35)
Post #: 19
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