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Large Games Unplayable - 5/27/2016 3:50:19 PM   
ASLifer

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline 		Made a large map with editor and found out that doing so is basically worthless because
to insert enough troops to make map useful, makes game unplayable. To be honest I'm a little bit miffed that anything over
15 squads with leaders and SW's slows game almost to a stop. I have a good computer (Alienware) it exceeds requirements for game
but large numbers of troops kills the game. That is a serious issue for me. I didn't buy the game to be limited to playing only
small scenarios with a limited number of troops. I like bigger, the bigger the better. Unfortunately at this time, my preferred
playing style is severely hampered. I will continue to play the small scenarios though, in the hopes that over time the
developers will be able to correct this serious deficiency. I like the game, don't get me wrong but I just feel that a game
shouldn't offer something that it is unable to support.

Thanks
David


_____________________________

"You see what you wanna see, And you hear what you wanna hear."
Harry Nilsson "The Point"
Post #: 1
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/27/2016 7:22:30 PM   
fuselex

 

Posts: 788
Joined: 8/2/2014
Status: offline 		I understand where you are coming from ASLifer , any scenarios with 3 mapboards I`m very hesitant to get:)
Played another ww2 strategy game tonight that i had sunk a lot of hours into , just for a break, and the entire
time i compared it to Toth ,
Guess by the fact I'm on the Toth forums may imply something :)


(in reply to ASLifer)
Post #: 2
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/27/2016 7:30:16 PM   
Paullus

 

Posts: 1058
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Try to limit the Daylight Visibilty in the Scenario Attributes to say 16 hexes. You can experiment with this setting until yo find a good balance that suits you.

_____________________________

For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to fuselex)
Post #: 3
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/27/2016 11:05:36 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Sorry, the bigger the map the heavier the LOS processing because the LOS engine calculates LOS down to a pixel level.

(in reply to Paullus)
Post #: 4
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/27/2016 11:34:00 PM   
Code Talker

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 10/3/2001
From: The Colony, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paullus

Try to limit the Daylight Visibilty in the Scenario Attributes to say 16 hexes. You can experiment with this setting until yo find a good balance that suits you.


Paullus,

When I go into the Scenario Attributes area it is all grayed out and can't be modified.

(in reply to Paullus)
Post #: 5
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/28/2016 1:55:52 AM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Sorry, the bigger the map the heavier the LOS processing because the LOS engine calculates LOS down to a pixel level.


I understand this, but doesn't the visibility setting also affect game speed? I suppose LOS is only calculated up to the visibility limit.

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 6
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/28/2016 3:05:15 AM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844


quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Sorry, the bigger the map the heavier the LOS processing because the LOS engine calculates LOS down to a pixel level.


I understand this, but doesn't the visibility setting also affect game speed? I suppose LOS is only calculated up to the visibility limit.



Yes of course, if you reduce the maximum LOS for scenario you improve the LOS processing speed.

(in reply to UP844)
Post #: 7
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/28/2016 9:00:10 AM   
Paullus

 

Posts: 1058
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Code Talker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paullus

Try to limit the Daylight Visibilty in the Scenario Attributes to say 16 hexes. You can experiment with this setting until yo find a good balance that suits you.


Paullus,

When I go into the Scenario Attributes area it is all grayed out and can't be modified.

You will have to change the scenario in the scenario editor. So open the Scenario in the Editor. Go to Scenario Attributes and change the Daylight Visibility setting and save the Scenario. Now try it out. You will see a difference.

_____________________________

For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to Code Talker)
Post #: 8
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/28/2016 7:50:11 PM   
PDiFolco

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		Well, that's kind of an issue if even a Alienware cannot handle a 3 maps scenario ...
maybe the LOS calculation should be done less accurately (ie for a pack of n pixels) at long range (anything over MG range, where only guns can shoot) ?

(in reply to Paullus)
Post #: 9
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/28/2016 7:59:44 PM   
ASLifer

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline 		[
quote]Sorry, the bigger the map the heavier the LOS processing because the LOS engine calculates LOS down to a pixel level.[/quote]

Then I would say that that is a problem that needs to be resolved. I would also have to re-iterate 2 things.. 1) I didn't buy
the game to be limited to play only small scenarios with a limited number of troops, 2) I just feel that a game shouldn't offer
something that it is unable to support.

Now having said that, I did try Paullus's possible fix to the problem. Limiting Daylight visibility helped out tremendously!!
I set it to 14 hexes and I went back and reset number of troops at start. I will experiment with how much I can add
till it goes caflooy. So far I have 21 squads on both sides, 5 leaders both sides, various SW's, and 6 AFV's. AI AFV movement
is the only trouble spot but delay is less than 5-7 secs. I can live with that. I also have reinforcements due to come in
later in game for both sides so I will see how that impacts the game. I will also go back into editor with my scenario and add squads
and such till I find the upper limit. (Not the Outer Limits, teehee, I just couldn't help myself) I will repost my results
as they become available.

Thanks for your time and effort
This is a good game it
just needs some tweeks..
David AKA: ASLifer


Well my quote at top didn't work out like it was suppose to... The quote was from Peter.

One last edit, I swear!! I made a big map 12 sectors. The size of the map isn't the issue at all. Well only partially
as long as you remember to limit daylight visibility on a large map you should be ok..The issue is the number of
troops added to the scenario..


< Message edited by ASLifer -- 5/28/2016 8:18:12 PM >

_____________________________

"You see what you wanna see, And you hear what you wanna hear."
Harry Nilsson "The Point"

(in reply to ASLifer)
Post #: 10
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/28/2016 8:16:17 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
Well, that's kind of an issue if even a Alienware cannot handle a 3 maps scenario ...
maybe the LOS calculation should be done less accurately (ie for a pack of n pixels) at long range (anything over MG range, where only guns can shoot) ?


I rather write the code for LOS properly the first time because the logic is quite complex and then let the hardware catch up, otherwise I will have to rewrite the code twice or more and that potentially introduces bugs as I make the code changes. Something I wanted to avoid...

(in reply to PDiFolco)
Post #: 11
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/30/2016 2:11:16 PM   
Code Talker

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 10/3/2001
From: The Colony, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paullus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Code Talker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paullus

Try to limit the Daylight Visibilty in the Scenario Attributes to say 16 hexes. You can experiment with this setting until yo find a good balance that suits you.


Paullus,

When I go into the Scenario Attributes area it is all grayed out and can't be modified.

You will have to change the scenario in the scenario editor. So open the Scenario in the Editor. Go to Scenario Attributes and change the Daylight Visibility setting and save the Scenario. Now try it out. You will see a difference.


Yes sir, I tried it on a scenario that had been excruciatingly slow. This did the trick. Thank you very much.

(in reply to Paullus)
Post #: 12
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/30/2016 6:12:45 PM   
Paullus

 

Posts: 1058
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		That's nice to hear Enjoy your gaming

_____________________________

For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to Code Talker)
Post #: 13
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 5/30/2016 7:13:57 PM   
PDiFolco

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		LOS limiting is a good workaround... as long as you don't want to pit Tigers and Nashorns vs hosts of T/34 tanks !

(in reply to Paullus)
Post #: 14
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 6/10/2016 3:17:56 PM   
ASLifer

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline 		Hello everyone:

I thought I'd give everyone an update on the scenario I created using large numbers of troops.
Before I get started though, I just wanted to let you know what I had for dinner last night. Main course consisted
of a large helping of Crow, and for dessert I had a big piece of humble pie... This game will support large amounts
of troops, as Paullus stated, you must definitely reduce daytime LOS visibility. Unlimited lol will not cut it. I shoulda
been able to figure that out myself. I am playing a large game, 12 sector map with a total of 69 squads on each side,
for a total of 138 squads, 20 leaders each, Germans have 10 crews for ordinance and 17 AFV's. Americans have 27 AFV's.
I have daytime visibility set at 16 hexs and game runs smooth as silk. Thanks Paullus for the most important tip, and
thank you Peter for a great game. I'm having a blast! It would be nice if you could play comp vs comp though... Since I made
the scenario, I kinda know where everyone is at. A comp vs comp game would be a lot of fun since comp's have no idea where anyone is.

Thank You
I am humbly yours
David (ASLifer)

_____________________________

"You see what you wanna see, And you hear what you wanna hear."
Harry Nilsson "The Point"

(in reply to ASLifer)
Post #: 15
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 6/10/2016 4:49:14 PM   
UP844


Posts: 1662
Joined: 3/3/2016
From: Genoa, Republic of Genoa (occupied by Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ASLifer
Since I made
the scenario, I kinda know where everyone is at. A comp vs comp game would be a lot of fun since comp's have no idea where anyone is.


This is the disadvantage of playing one's own scenarios :D.

Did you set up units in specific hexes or in "deployment zones"? If you use the second option, the AI usually deploys in the highest TEM terrain (e.g. if you include open, woods and stone building hexes in a deployment zone, expect to find AI units in stone buildings only). This nothwithstanding, the is sometimes able to surprise you :D.


(in reply to ASLifer)
Post #: 16
RE: Large Games Unplayable - 6/10/2016 4:55:25 PM   
fuselex

 

Posts: 788
Joined: 8/2/2014
Status: offline 		Thanks for the taking the time to experiment ASLifer :)
A lot of ppl would have just spat the dummy , blamed the developers , and walked away from a great game.
You took the time to ask , wait for a response , then have another go at it.
There is no humble pie involved
Your thread has helped a fellow player understand just a little bit more of the game.


(in reply to ASLifer)
Post #: 17
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