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RE: WitE 2 - 5/14/2016 11:13:14 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		One thing that could be considered - lose prep points when the HQ of a combat unit is changed... there is no penalty for doing it a present and people can do it on the fly too much I think. A unit should lose something when the org changes. This reflects the inevitable loss of focus and change in priorities when a division transfers to a new Corps. It penalises the old tricks of breaking out, meeting up with the other pincer and just changing HQ etc.

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Post #: 571
RE: WitE 2 - 5/16/2016 4:16:03 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Not sure whether already suggested, but will there be any correlation among national or unit morale and captured territory/cities? Just some thoughts:
When germans advanced, it must have been caused some enthusiasm to enter major soviet cites like Kiev or Rostov. On the other hand, loosing your hometown must have hurted soviet morale.
Such a rule is maybe a motivation to defend forward in 1941 to deny fast morale gains to germany?
Of special importance are major cities like the L, M, R, Sev., Stal., for sure you can read in international press if they fall and soviet press can hardly deny the loss when it happens.
On the other hand, if soviets capture area like in winter 1941/42 or after stalingrad, this gives back a lot of morale because it shows that there is a chance to pay back/win.
This recapture-rule will increase the temptation for the late war defending german player to hold some dangerous positions to delay the soviet morale gain. I really miss the crazy bulges of the historic frontlines in WITE!
In some games players will probably pull out most troops of leningrad. Stalin would have never allowed to abandon the hometown of the bolshevik revolution!
The system would be: Loosing a city hurts, seizing it increases morale (and maybe number of volunteers?).
In addition, the morale of german allies should maybe increase when the front comes closer? I am sure hungarians and finns fight better when defending their home compared to fighting somewhere deep in russia for german imperialism.
Their should also be some "forgetting" included, so soviets do not suffer for the rest of the war when loosing moscow. But a short shock should be there.

<<Edits>>
It was not intended to be a reply to HMSWarspite!
And i just realized that the morale thing was already mentioned some fourty posts ago, but in less detail.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 5/16/2016 4:21:28 PM >

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Post #: 572
RE: WitE 2 - 5/16/2016 4:23:04 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		On the other hand some soldiers become really stubborn/berserk/desperate with every city of the Motherland/Fatherland lost.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 573
RE: WitE 2 - 5/16/2016 4:47:28 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		I agree morale is a difficult topic.
In some wars the capital was taken and the country surrendered immediately.
In some wars the capital was taken and the country fought even harder. Russians, or better soviet, including all minorities, showed their will to fight on and keep their land free of the barbarism of hitler.
Maybe their should only be a bonus when Soviets are advancing, because retaking cities will for sure boost morale.
But in some AARs you see people withdrawing from entire regions without hesitation. This is not realistic.

How it looks in detail has to be discussed, but i would like to see a system where the national morale is linked with the ground action. Loosing or winning battles, taking ground and cities should influence the morale of the whole country.
I am sure the loss of stalingrad/6th army also reduced the will to fight of units located at leningrad.
While the loss of Kiev might have made some soldiers more stubborn, the capture of hundred of thousands of comrades for sure reduced morale (will this happen to me too? Will we ever beat the germans?).


Another question: Is there an alternate blizzard system in WITE 2? So no simple reducing combat efficiency by a multiplier?
In a "perfect" simulation, the reduction of combat effectivity should only be a result of worser supply situation due to blizzard, frostbitten losses, raising fatigue after month of fighting, resulting in a small percentage of TOE still ready to fight and much damaged, while soviets get rested far eastern troops etc.
THx for the interesting discussions here!
I don't know whether i will ever have time for WITE 2 but it sounds like one of the best games ever.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 574
RE: WitE 2 - 5/16/2016 4:48:38 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		This discussion about morale comes up periodically. The way Gary sees morale in WitE/WitW is probably better described as doctrine/national training level. It is not intended to be morale in the sense it is used in games covering pre-20th century warfare (Napoleonic period comes to mind). When you think of it this way, you can still make the argument that instead of a fixed morale table over time, that it should be impacted by the disorganization caused by heavy casualties and/or loss of territory. It is used in the game as a way to heavily impact the experience level that a unit can obtain and to double up the importance of these values. Having dynamic morale levels sounds like a good idea, but do not underestimate the difficulty of getting the numbers right.

The complexity of the game system and the size/length of the game makes it virtually impossible to test these kinds of changes except in AI vs AI tests, and those of you that play head to head are constantly reminding us of the weaknesses of the AI. I do believe the AI, especially in defense, is good enough with some help to provide most players with a satisfying experience. However, it it can't compare to an experienced player in terms of thinking outside the box. Sometimes I long for the simplicity of a boardgame that can be played to completion in 3-4 hours, but then, that's not what WitE/WitW is all about.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 575
RE: WitE 2 - 5/16/2016 7:23:56 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Thx for the discussion, i haven't read the entire thread because its too much, so sorry for warming up old food.
When seeing morale as a kind of operational brilliance of a unit it makes a bit sense, but why not divide into "national experience" which includes doctrine, training etc. and national morale including the will to fight?
To make it short:
Experience: How should i fight? Teach me!
Morale: Do i want to fight? Convince me!
Fatigue: I am exhausted from marching. Feed me!

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 576
RE: WitE 2 - 5/24/2016 8:51:21 PM   
barrykimmerly


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/6/2010
Status: offline
quote:

As for other theaters, we are developing a system of Theater Boxes to represent other fronts in WitE2 (like Western Europe, North Africa). These boxes will have events that can be triggered based on what's in them. In theory we could remove these boxes and replace them with a playable map area in the future (thus moving from WitE to a multi-front game, but that's way off in the future). We currently expect that the game will be structured to allow historical flow of units between the map and the theater boxes for those that want to follow the "historical flow" (and most likely for the AI), while it can also be set to allow player management of the forces (with consequent impact on the events).

This system will take time to properly develop, but we feel it's the best way to deal with this going forward.


Thanks for the explanation Joel. I have another idea to submit to this forum however:

As always I fully accept this approach and love this whole game, and game system, but what about this: In the interim, (Before this game encompases multiple fronts in one game release), would it be possible to create a utility that modified the contents of the, "East front box", and, "West front box", with data from game saves of WITE2 and WITW? In this way players could play both games, (As long as they kept the dates in sync), save the turns.... then run a separate utility that would rewrite the contents and state of the respective other front boxes with the data from the game turn saves. In this way you could in effect play both fronts using WITW and WITE2 when it comes out.

If this would be too much of a diversion of effort would 2by3 allow another agency to write a utility that would do this? I am NOT volunteering as I do not have the programing skills for a project such as this but I wonder if there is the will and the talent, "Out there", among this community to do this? Is this something that you guys would even want to have?

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Post #: 577
RE: WitE 2 - 5/25/2016 8:46:31 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barrykimmerl

Thanks for the explanation Joel. I have another idea to submit to this forum however:

As always I fully accept this approach and love this whole game, and game system, but what about this: In the interim, (Before this game encompases multiple fronts in one game release), would it be possible to create a utility that modified the contents of the, "East front box", and, "West front box", with data from game saves of WITE2 and WITW? In this way players could play both games, (As long as they kept the dates in sync), save the turns.... then run a separate utility that would rewrite the contents and state of the respective other front boxes with the data from the game turn saves. In this way you could in effect play both fronts using WITW and WITE2 when it comes out.

If this would be too much of a diversion of effort would 2by3 allow another agency to write a utility that would do this? I am NOT volunteering as I do not have the programing skills for a project such as this but I wonder if there is the will and the talent, "Out there", among this community to do this? Is this something that you guys would even want to have?


This was in fact one of the ideas that we considered at the outset. However we decided against it as the challenge of matching two separate games was too complex. It's not just the units - that is easy-ish. It is all the production, where you draw the line on the map as well as the challenge of maintaining data integrity.

I still have a mind to create a WitE2 May 43 scenario that matches the starting setup of WitW and has the arrival/departure synched for play with the Boxes switched off. Production would be out of synch and you would lose the flexibility to move units between theatres but it would be sort of there.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to barrykimmerly)
Post #: 578
RE: WitE 2 - 6/4/2016 2:29:26 AM   
A game


Posts: 97
Joined: 5/9/2012
Status: offline 		Is there any information yet on the balancing of victory conditions for WitE 2?

One of the fatal flaws of WitE has been the ability of the Soviets to simply run for the hills in 41 with very little consequences. Which really just makes a boring game to play for both sides.

Im hoping there is some work being done for version 2 on creating rewards vs punishments for actually fighting forwards with the soviets.

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 579
RE: WitE 2 - 6/4/2016 7:51:20 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline 		You can use sudden death scenario or agree house rule for victory conditions to limit excessive withdrawls by either side

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Post #: 580
RE: WitE 2 - 6/4/2016 8:54:39 AM   
A game


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

You can use sudden death scenario or agree house rule for victory conditions to limit excessive withdrawls by either side


True but it would be nice to have actual game systems, for example political consequences for losing cities.

But maybe thats beyond the scope of this game which is more focused on being a super combat simulator.

I have not played WitW but it appears to have a slightly more complex VP system, so maybe there will be something like this for WitE 2

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Post #: 581
RE: WitE 2 - 6/4/2016 1:31:15 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		It seems like there should be a sort of global morale hit when major cities are lost/abandoned, contrary to the prewar expectations of the combatants. At least this concept should be studied to assess its applicability to this conflict. Russia had used a strategic withdrawal/scorched earth strategy against Napoleon in 1812, yet I haven't gotten the impression that such was contemplated in 1941.

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Post #: 582
RE: WitE 2 - 6/4/2016 2:35:04 PM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		+1 Sillyflower and +1 A game (in re having a game system do it.)

If one were adept at using the editor, one could make the Lvov opening much more difficult, make losing Western Soviet Union resources more costly, and make Axis stronger/Soviets weaker through the early moves (even to 3/42.) Alas, I'm not.

As things stand, there are significant adjustments that can be made through the balance factors and force factors (defense/attack +/-)

But a more elegant approach would be appreciated, if only to mask the mechanics and simplify play.

Adjusting morale through time could be useful, but who can say what effects there are to losing key centers at different times, in different circumstances. All this would be moot.

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Post #: 583
RE: WitE 2 - 6/4/2016 8:37:58 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill

....

If one were adept at using the editor, one could make the Lvov opening much more difficult, make losing Western Soviet Union resources more costly, and make Axis stronger/Soviets weaker through the early moves (even to 3/42.) Alas, I'm not.

... .


believe me, the WiTE Lvov fantasy is off the agenda in WiTE2, there is a rather nice modelling of the differential level of combat and command capacity/readiness between the SW and Western Fronts in the opening days.

... and any German player planning to support the Ukraine campaign off the Romanian-Soviet rail net is in for a shock too.

its hard to say where things end up but at the moment both sides have real problems in the opening 20 turns. The Germans curse every Soviet counterstroke for burning off supplies etc needed to push forward. The Soviet player had better get used to defending with 4-6,000 man rifle divisions.

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Post #: 584
RE: WitE 2 - 6/7/2016 1:08:16 PM   
TomaszPudlo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Morale: Do i want to fight? Convince me!



Because surrender is sometimes worse than death. It's no coincidence that Germans were more willing to surrender to the Allies than to the Soviets. Perhaps a self-preservation variable would be a good idea?

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 585
RE: WitE 2 - 6/7/2016 4:23:25 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
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From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Sometimes I long for the simplicity of a boardgame that can be played to completion in 3-4 hours, but then, that's not what WitE/WitW is all about.


True happiness would be your games with real cardboard. A true successor to DNO/FiTE etc


_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 586
RE: WitE 2 - 6/8/2016 2:15:55 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TomaszPudlo


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Morale: Do i want to fight? Convince me!



Because surrender is sometimes worse than death. It's no coincidence that Germans were more willing to surrender to the Allies than to the Soviets. Perhaps a self-preservation variable would be a good idea?


This is important when it comes to fighting in pockets like in stalingrad (where they were holding out very long, but to a lesser extent when it comes to offensive operations, but the Wehrmacht excelled in this area too.

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Post #: 587
RE: WitE 2 - 6/8/2016 6:43:25 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		Fighting in pockets isn't really any different to fighting out of pockets. If troops have supplies of ammo, they can fight, if they have food they will be able to fight, if they have hope they will want to fight. The first too are obviously covered anyway (by supply quantity) the latter is harder to simulate. I do not know how you could cause a decline in will to fight over the weeks and maybe months of a typical eastern front pocket without causing as many issues as you solve.

I think the WitW style supply will give pocket resilience or lack of it quite happily. If you are isolated with a few well stocked depots a WitW pocket almost doesn't notice it is one... and I think trrops with food and ammo dont tend to give up in RL.

I know, Singapore but there is always an exception...

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Post #: 588
RE: WitE 2 - 6/10/2016 5:07:06 PM   
Metatron


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/19/2014
Status: offline 		Really excited for WitE 2, the first was awesome so can't wait for an new and improved game

I don't know if this has been talked about previously but one thing that has left me a bit uneasy is the presence in game of the SS-Kavallerie Brigade and the two mot. SS-Brigaden.

I understand you need anti partisan units in the game but those units committed terrible war crimes and participated from the start in the mass murder of jews, partisans, prisoners of war etc. Unlike some other anti partisan units in the game these units were under direct command of the Kommandostab Reichsführer SS trough the RSSHA and the piece of garbage that was Höherer SS- und Polizeiführer Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski and were directly responsible for tens of thousands of murders from the start of operation Barbarossa. No other units in the game are so closely tied to the genocidal part of the German invasion of the Soviet Union on their own and in cooperation with the Einsatzgruppen. Just a few concrete examples: on August 2nd 1941 SS-Kavallerie Regiment 1 killed about 5000 jewish men, women and children at Chomsk and Motol; on Augst 4th 1941 in Ostrog the SS-Infanterie Regiment 10 (mot) killed up to 3000 jews; a direct order of SS-Führer Gustav Lombard to his SS-Kavallerieregiment 1 dated July 29th 1941 literally says "No male Jew is left alive, no families left in the villages". (examples taken from the article by Martin Cüppers see below)

True these units were later reorganized a to some extant and used on the front lines but I think it would be better not to have these units as separate entities in the game in the early part of the war.

I personally don't think these units deserve a place in such a great game as WitE and I would be interested to hear the opinion of other fans of the game and/or the game developers.

(if this issue has been discussed before my bad didn't see it anywhere)

some interesting reading about what these units were implicated in:

- "The Origins of the Final Solution. The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942" by Christopher R. Browning is a good read about the early German racial policies and how they evolved from persecution and “ethnic cleansing” to the Final Solution of the Holocaust.
- "Wegbereiter der Shoah: Die Waffen-SS, der Kommandostab Reichsführer-SS und die Judenvernichtung 1939-1945" by Martin Cüppers which does a great job at showing the direct link between Himmler, the units linked to his Kommandostab and and the genocide.
- "Auf dem Weg in den Holocaust. Die Brigaden des Kommandostabes Reichshführer-SS im Sommer 1941" p. 286-301 by Martin Cüppers in: "Die Waffen-SS. Neueste Forschungen." published by Jan Erik Schulte, Peter Lieb and Bernd Wegner, an article in which Cüppers directly shows the war crimes committed by the SS Cavalry Brigade and 1. and 2. SS Infantry Brigades in the Summer of 1941 alone.

_____________________________

-There is safety in numbers.
-Well there is also death in numbers. It's called a massacre.

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Post #: 589
RE: WitE 2 - 6/10/2016 8:21:23 PM   
uw06670


Posts: 221
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		The Eastern front was rife with war crimes committed by both sides. Millions of soldiers and civilians were killed directly and indirectly by both German and Soviet actions from local situations, such as killing prisoners out of hand, to scorched earth retreat by Soviets leading to deaths of their own people. I don't think that the targeted death of specific groups (not limited to Jews by the way) is more tragic than the many others killed during the course of the war. I think that to pretend that removing these 3 units somehow makes the game/war more clean is to ignore all the horrors that the war entailed.

If you are the German player and they offend you, disband them. If you are the Soviet and see them, go kill them.

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Post #: 590
RE: WitE 2 - 6/11/2016 9:35:41 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Yes both sides commited war crimes but the german level of determination, planning and use of an ideology to justify it is uncontested in modern history i think. However, i dont see the reason to remove the units from the game. They were in the world and ignoring them makes the game a bit unrealistic. I would however appreciate a small unit history for every division, this were the right place to mention war crimes.

(in reply to uw06670)
Post #: 591
RE: WitE 2 - 6/12/2016 3:57:53 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		Please do not try to sanitize my historical war games.

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Post #: 592
RE: WitE 2 - 6/12/2016 4:39:59 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Units participating in real combat should be present in the game, regardless of their other activities (but it should be mentioned in unit history page, if such functionality exists). Units performing only dirty deeds in the rear can be removed.

(in reply to Capitaine)
Post #: 593
RE: WitE 2 - 6/13/2016 2:05:38 AM   
barrykimmerly


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/6/2010
Status: offline 		I think this is a more important issue than it would seem. Yes, there were lots of atrocities perpetrated by both sides, but this game is not about that. It is a military strategy game. To sanitize it of all reference to atrocities would be to delete the entire game. A lot of the war production and forced labour were atrocities as well... we could not start deleting all the war material that was produced by slave labour, all the fortifications dug by forced labour. The game is just not about that. If you ask me war is an atrocity, pure and simple. I like to play strategy games though- my electronic units hurt no one.

I do not mean to be insensitive in any way. Remember the past, remember the wars, remember the atrocities. Fight to stop them from ever happening again. BUT- Do not pretend they did not exist by removing any uncomfortable references to them. Understanding the whole reality of of the eastern campaign is a good thing in my opinion. Leave the units in the OB.

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Post #: 594
RE: WitE 2 - 6/13/2016 3:33:02 AM   
Der Kuenstler


Posts: 168
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline 		I agree with Barry - and we should also remember that most of WWII history was written by the victors. With the internet, we now have access to sites like "Justice for Germans" to hear the German view. I have read SS memoirs of soldiers that personally saw no atrocities committed and even made friends with many of the local populace that were later slaughtered by the Bolsheviks after retreating.

It's likely we will never know the full truth about either side, so I'm in favor of just leaving all historical units in the game instead of trying to make judgments about them without knowing the all the facts.

(in reply to barrykimmerly)
Post #: 595
RE: WitE 2 - 6/13/2016 10:11:26 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		I disagree a bit with you Kuenstler but i dont want to start a discussion here, maybe i will pm you.
However, i agree this is a wargame, not a war crimes game, so i dont want units to be removed because they commited war crimes but were regular fighting units.

(in reply to Der Kuenstler)
Post #: 596
RE: WitE 2 - 6/14/2016 2:09:48 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		These battle delay MP I have heard of, I assume the units who participated in the attack are not hit with that extra cost?

And why if the attacker has won the battle should he have to pay MP to occupy the hex (other than zoc costs) he has just fought a battle in?

I guess what I am getting at here is why can't the attacker advance for free (other than zoc costs) in to a just cleared hex he has won. This aspect has always made me wonder about WITE. As almost every other game I have played has an advance after combat that is virtually free for the attacker.

_____________________________


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Post #: 597
RE: WitE 2 - 6/14/2016 7:12:36 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		I agree with Michael, attacker should enter the cleared hex for free. The delay should apply only for units not participating in that particular battle.

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Post #: 598
RE: WitE 2 - 6/14/2016 8:02:40 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		Combat Delay only applies when you leave the combat hex. There is no extra charge to occupy the hex after battle. The amount of combat delay is set by the type of attack and the final odds.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 599
RE: WitE 2 - 6/14/2016 8:08:27 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Ok that's good.

But what about occupying the battle hex with the attacking units? Is that for free now?

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