Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: General Patton

I think it's something to do with the operations mode changing during upgrade. It happens to me when I change from combat to strategic as well. Did you check your M4 pool?....GP

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ORIGINAL: tiemanj

I'll have to check when I can load the editor, but I believe that the British tanks are all in an upgrade line (vickers to Valentine's to Lee's to grants to Sherman v).
However for the Americans, the m3 upgrades to the m5. The m4, I think, is a separate path.

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Thanks tiemanj. Makes sense now. Sucks for me though... Wonder why they guys that did the WC reinforcements did it like that. Would have been better to have it arrive in the right TOE? Oversight perhaps. Nothing in the OPS report about a TOE upgrade though. Only a device upgrade on the 9th. Sounds very familiar about that Indian ID. It "upgrades" to 109 squads and a couple of guns if I remember correctly...

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ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Thanks tiemanj. Makes sense now. Sucks for me though... Wonder why they guys that did the WC reinforcements did it like that.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

A tiny silver lining and won't make you feel much better, but you got Shermans on the front lines in very early 1943. They may be few, but they are fearsome. Japan has no tank in the invasion that can stand up to them.

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ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

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ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Thanks tiemanj. Makes sense now. Sucks for me though... Wonder why they guys that did the WC reinforcements did it like that.

I would be very surprised if this aspect of the game was well play-tested. While emergency reinforcements seem to be a bit of a bogeyman on the forums, they are much less fearsome in practice than they are in the imagination of the players - as you're finding out in your current game I'm sure.

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

A tiny silver lining and won't make you feel much better, but you got Shermans on the front lines in very early 1943. They may be few, but they are fearsome. Japan has no tank in the invasion that can stand up to them.

Aaaaaaactually...

M4 Sherman Armor: 45, Anti-Armor: 62, Anti-Soft: 21
Gun: Range 2, Effect 12, Pen 62, Accur 10

Type 1 Medium Tank Armor: 50, Anti-Armor: 80, Anti-Soft: 16
Gun: Range 1, Effect 6, Pen 80, Accur 10

The Type 1 is available beginning 6/42 in Scen 2, so I assume Lowpe would have it if he has upgraded his units. Its gun isn't quite as good, but it can kill Shermans. The biggest difference to me is the Range 2 vs. 1 there, because we don't really know how that works. We also don't really know how the Effect works with regard to the device or if there's a big difference between 6 and 12 - does 6 mean 40% chance of destroyed/disabled while 12 is 80%, or is it more like 40% and 50%? I don't know if anyone with authority to speak to it has ever said how those numbers all interact, in even a hinting manner.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

A tiny silver lining and won't make you feel much better, but you got Shermans on the front lines in very early 1943. They may be few, but they are fearsome. Japan has no tank in the invasion that can stand up to them.

Aaaaaaactually...

M4 Sherman Armor: 45, Anti-Armor: 62, Anti-Soft: 21
Gun: Range 2, Effect 12, Pen 62, Accur 10

Type 1 Medium Tank Armor: 50, Anti-Armor: 80, Anti-Soft: 16
Gun: Range 1, Effect 6, Pen 80, Accur 10

The Type 1 is available beginning 6/42 in Scen 2, so I assume Lowpe would have it if he has upgraded his units. Its gun isn't quite as good, but it can kill Shermans. The biggest difference to me is the Range 2 vs. 1 there, because we don't really know how that works. We also don't really know how the Effect works with regard to the device or if there's a big difference between 6 and 12 - does 6 mean 40% chance of destroyed/disabled while 12 is 80%, or is it more like 40% and 50%? I don't know if anyone with authority to speak to it has ever said how those numbers all interact, in even a hinting manner.

Double range, double effect has to be pretty good. And the anti-soft is very good against infantry with almost no AT capability. Add to that the fact that the Allies have big, local bases to pull the tanks into to fix disablements.

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

A tiny silver lining and won't make you feel much better, but you got Shermans on the front lines in very early 1943. They may be few, but they are fearsome. Japan has no tank in the invasion that can stand up to them.

Aaaaaaactually...

M4 Sherman Armor: 45, Anti-Armor: 62, Anti-Soft: 21
Gun: Range 2, Effect 12, Pen 62, Accur 10

Type 1 Medium Tank Armor: 50, Anti-Armor: 80, Anti-Soft: 16
Gun: Range 1, Effect 6, Pen 80, Accur 10

The Type 1 is available beginning 6/42 in Scen 2, so I assume Lowpe would have it if he has upgraded his units. Its gun isn't quite as good, but it can kill Shermans. The biggest difference to me is the Range 2 vs. 1 there, because we don't really know how that works. We also don't really know how the Effect works with regard to the device or if there's a big difference between 6 and 12 - does 6 mean 40% chance of destroyed/disabled while 12 is 80%, or is it more like 40% and 50%? I don't know if anyone with authority to speak to it has ever said how those numbers all interact, in even a hinting manner.

Double range, double effect has to be pretty good. And the anti-soft is very good against infantry with almost no AT capability. Add to that the fact that the Allies have big, local bases to pull the tanks into to fix disablements.

I don't know that base size matters for fixing units. I think you just need to tick these boxes for best fixing:
1) Are you at a base?
2) Does unit have enough supply?
3) Is the leader good at Admin?
4) Is there an HQ present?
5) Are you in Rest mode?

That's it, I think?


I'm actually wondering if the anti-soft is a function of the effect rating, in which case it's worth noting that the anti-armor is the same as the penetration value - maybe Effect only affects () how hard it hits against soft targets, but not armored targets?

The range factor, though... just don't know on that one. Presumably with Range 2, it will shoot first and shoot more than Range 1. Also don't know if attack vs. defense matters there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj
My guess is you are one of the few who have even seen the 2nd Armored (I haven't even looked at any US armored divisions, as I've never had any chance of using them. pitty...). The ones you get in '45 you can actually use already come with M4s.
Also, I would think the most likely time for a WC invasion would be earlier than you are seeing it - when M4s haven't even started yet (they start in 12/42). So M3s would make more sense. So congratulations, you may be the first allied player to see a WC invasion in '43!

Perhaps nothing was in the ops report because it was simply aligning your TO&E to the one defined in the editor - as opposed to actually "upgrading" the TO&E. Pure speculation on my part here.

By the way, digging at it a bit more, the US restricted armor divisions (the white restricted all players get, but few probably pay attention to), start with the M24 in slot 13 (and not the M5). I wonder if this makes a difference.

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ORIGINAL: witpqs

IMO: Not bug. Be wary of TOE changes and of device upgrades.

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ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Could the TOE change have been avoided with upgrade off or by stockpiling the Shermans?

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ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

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ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Could the TOE change have been avoided with upgrade off or by stockpiling the Shermans?

Yes, if you set the LCU to not upgrade it shouldn't switch to it's base TOE ID configuration. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but in my experience setting the unit upgrade to off prevents this).

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Lokasenna: I'm actually wondering if the anti-soft is a function of the effect rating, in which case it's worth noting that the anti-armor is the same as the penetration value - maybe Effect only affects () how hard it hits against soft targets, but not armored targets?

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ORIGINAL: JocMeister

But then I couldn´t have upgraded the obsolete squads? Or do stockpile of the Shermans prevent the TOE "upgrade" from switching out the Lees?

I suspect not...

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

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Lokasenna: I'm actually wondering if the anti-soft is a function of the effect rating, in which case it's worth noting that the anti-armor is the same as the penetration value - maybe Effect only affects () how hard it hits against soft targets, but not armored targets?

I don't know for sure but I have the understanding (perhaps read it long ago) that the anti-armour combat resolution first calculates the chance of a hit, then the chance of penetration and then applies the "effect" value against the durability of the vehicle to decide if it is destroyed or disabled.

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

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Lokasenna: I'm actually wondering if the anti-soft is a function of the effect rating, in which case it's worth noting that the anti-armor is the same as the penetration value - maybe Effect only affects () how hard it hits against soft targets, but not armored targets?

I don't know for sure but I have the understanding (perhaps read it long ago) that the anti-armour combat resolution first calculates the chance of a hit, then the chance of penetration and then applies the "effect" value against the durability of the vehicle to decide if it is destroyed or disabled.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

What I don't know, and I don't think has ever been disclosed, is what the Range variable does. Does it give the Range=2 tank a permanent first roll-to-hit, or does it double the probability of a first hit?

I would think it gives a first roll. Tank 1 is 2000 yards from tank 2. Tank 1 has Range=2; tank 2 has Range=1. Tank 2 has to roll forward 1000 yards to get a shot off, while tank 1 can fire immediately. This is easily translated into probabilities.

I would also think Range only applies to the main gun vs. an AFV or other motorized target. Anti-soft MGs on a tank shouldn't have more inherent range than an infantry MG.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

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ORIGINAL: JocMeister

But then I couldn´t have upgraded the obsolete squads? Or do stockpile of the Shermans prevent the TOE "upgrade" from switching out the Lees?

I suspect not...

My experience is you could have. The Allies get some of early 1944 IDs still with 1941 squads. I am always short of the 57mm AT gun; it's on fairly permanent stockpile. I have upgraded those divisions just fine while leaving them with 37mm AT guns.

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ORIGINAL: witpqs

There might be some special situation that I am not aware of, but AFAIK:

- TOW upgrades can only occur in a friendly base, with a Command HQ within a certain range, and with the LCU in Rest mode.
- Device upgrades can only occur if the 'upgrade' button is 'yes', the unit is in a friendly base, enough supply & enough devices in the pool.

The notion of the LCU upgrading to a 'base TOE' is something I haven't heard about before.

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But then I couldn´t have upgraded the obsolete squads? Or do stockpile of the Shermans prevent the TOE "upgrade" from switching out the Lees? I suspect not...