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RE: The Cruel Sea - 7/2/2016 2:59:13 AM

Lowpe

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Looking forward to it!

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RE: The Cruel Sea - 7/2/2016 10:33:47 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

One thing you might consider in a counter-blow is prepping for the bases the Allies occupied bloodlessly instead of the ones they took by force. Main reason is that most Allied players by this time are not going to bother with much of a garrison with the bases they didn't have to fight for. Let the Allies build up those bases and then take them back! Of course the Allies may see that your units are planning for such a move with SIGINT but that could also be a good thing; it might force units that were allocated for amphibious invasion into a garrison role.

Any kind of counter-invasion at this point is counter productive unless it's very close to the HI and the Japanese can achieve temporary local air and naval superiority. The Allies have just pushed into the gut of what should be the Japanese defenses, but it appears nothing is here. How would the Japanese get air superiority or control the seas here to counter-invade anyway? Doesn't seem likely.

If you do get a few bases what prevents the Allies from simply keeping the bigger ones and moving on forward isolating the Japanese that have counter-invaded?

What is the next layer looking like?

If this was so easy, what is to prevent the Allies from going farther? Mindanao? Borneo? Or even the Asian coastline in China or elsewhere?

If the Deathstar can create local air and sea superiority, Japan's only option is to have decent garrisons in key positions, have prepared forts and interlocking airfields so that if the Allies land the fight is not over as it appears to be in this area.

< Message edited by obvert -- 7/2/2016 10:37:04 AM >

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Post #: 2372

Game Review - 7/2/2016 2:10:04 PM

John 3rd

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Let us start with the Victory Point screen:

AIR
We had an exceptional day in the day today. Overall you see ATA to be nearly even at this late date in the war. The major areas of loss for Japan sits squarely in AA and Operational. We've lost over 15,000 planes. Wow.

GROUND
The victory point spread rests squarely on what I've done to his ground units. Look at the disparity there!

SHIPS
Prior to that debacle of a CV engagement I had the advantage in this area. The loss of all my CVEs, 2 CV, and 4 CVL for little return was horrific. Lessons were learned but at huge cost. Dan has lost over 1,100 ships but his Fleet is immense (as should be) and growing by the day.

Anything else anybody see or want to comment on?

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< Message edited by John 3rd -- 7/2/2016 2:12:53 PM >

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Post #: 2373

RE: The Cruel Sea - 7/2/2016 2:16:09 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

One thing you might consider in a counter-blow is prepping for the bases the Allies occupied bloodlessly instead of the ones they took by force. Main reason is that most Allied players by this time are not going to bother with much of a garrison with the bases they didn't have to fight for. Let the Allies build up those bases and then take them back! Of course the Allies may see that your units are planning for such a move with SIGINT but that could also be a good thing; it might force units that were allocated for amphibious invasion into a garrison role.

Any kind of counter-invasion at this point is counter productive unless it's very close to the HI and the Japanese can achieve temporary local air and naval superiority. The Allies have just pushed into the gut of what should be the Japanese defenses, but it appears nothing is here. How would the Japanese get air superiority or control the seas here to counter-invade anyway? Doesn't seem likely.

If you do get a few bases what prevents the Allies from simply keeping the bigger ones and moving on forward isolating the Japanese that have counter-invaded?

What is the next layer looking like?

If this was so easy, what is to prevent the Allies from going farther? Mindanao? Borneo? Or even the Asian coastline in China or elsewhere?

If the Deathstar can create local air and sea superiority, Japan's only option is to have decent garrisons in key positions, have prepared forts and interlocking airfields so that if the Allies land the fight is not over as it appears to be in this area.

The battle was in the Marshalls and Gilberts prior to this. Doubt if anyone could have foreseen this move and set of landings on bases that are totally undeveloped with nothing there. He has yet to land on ANY base with infantry in it.

My INNER PERIMETER of Marcus--Marainas--Yap--Babeldoap--Peleliu is well established and solid. Mindanao is garrisoned. Luzon and Formosa is beginning to get troops. The DEI has its garrisons in Java through Timor.

This set of landings--while bold--is highly risky. He must keep the Fleet there to hold it. This gives me the opportunity to nibble and take out the edges as I started to with the present game turn. Give this set of invasions six-to-eight weeks before judgement is passed. I have been in far worse situations in the game...

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 7/2/2016 2:19:28 PM >

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Post #: 2374

Allied Losses: Capital Ships - 7/2/2016 2:20:10 PM

John 3rd

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Current Capital Ship Losses:

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RE: The Cruel Sea - 7/2/2016 2:22:31 PM

obvert

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If he's paying attention to SIGINT he will know what you have and where you have it. He'll know what it's prepping for and where it's moving.

While you may indeed be able to nibble the edges here, you may have to concede this area and start on the next layer now. He can move very fast in 44. LR recon will now be able to start looking all around 25 hexes to the West and he'll find the weak spots.

I would advise a major contraction at this point. Be strong where you can be strong and don't diffuse your lines by spreading them thin or using forces in risky offensive missions.

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Post #: 2376

Allied Losses: CAs - 7/2/2016 2:24:38 PM

John 3rd

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Nineteen CAs:

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Post #: 2377

Allied Losses: CLs - 7/2/2016 2:26:51 PM

John 3rd

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Twenty-Nine Light Cruisers:

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Post #: 2378

Allied Losses: CLs - 7/2/2016 2:29:49 PM

John 3rd

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...and the rest of them...

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RE: The Cruel Sea - 7/2/2016 2:32:32 PM

Lowpe

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In my game, after I lost half of the KB...the Allies were in Hokkaido within 2 months with a 1000 ship (seemingly) armada.

Allies can simply pack up so, so much and land them wherever, and your land base air will impale itself against a good opponent. Normally you might get a few CVEs...but he has a hundred of them.

The land losses you inflicted on the Allies is very impressive, considering China still exists.

But I doubt it will buy you any more time. The Allies simply have so much.

But, my advice would be to mirror Obvert's...with the addition of really cranking out the fighter planes and engines for them.

But heck, you have defied conventional wisdom in the past...can you invade Ceylon or India again?

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Post #: 2380

Allied Losses: DDs/SS - 7/2/2016 2:33:56 PM

John 3rd

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DD 113
SS 31

...now heading to the Japanese side...

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Post #: 2381

Japanese Losses: Capital Ships - 7/2/2016 2:38:10 PM

John 3rd

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Prior to the Battle between Wake and Johnston Japan has lost no carriers of any sort. Oh, well...

Losses:
3 CV
4 CVL
8 CVE
3 BB

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RE: Allied Losses: CLs - 7/2/2016 2:41:08 PM

ny59giants

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Those lists are all well and good, but how many CAs and CLs do you have now and how many more are you going to get? He lost Wasp and three newer BBs of worth, but that isn't much as this point in time. He is getting at least 6 to 10 new DDs per month. You, not so much.

Oil, oil, oil - In three or four months he will be ready for another major leap forward, maybe less. He can go north into the Philippines or west. If I was in Dan's shoes I would be going for NE and eastern Borneo. With the range of B-25s and his CVs, he would restrict your TKs to a very narrow stretch of IndoChina right by CRB to get that precious commodity back to Japan.

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Japanese Losses: CAs - 7/2/2016 2:42:05 PM

John 3rd

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Ten Heavy Cruisers lost with four of them coming in Sumatra when I didn't understand how shore bombardments worked on non-base locations, A sad, expensive lesson to learn!

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Japanese Losses: CLs - 7/2/2016 2:45:05 PM

John 3rd

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Eighteen CL losses. These workhorses have been used and abused. They did yeoman's service...

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Post #: 2385

Japanese Losses: DDs and SS - 7/2/2016 2:52:10 PM

John 3rd

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The Japanese 'little boys' have taken hard, hard losses. Including APDs and DEs the number is at a frightening 111 ships of all sorts. A great amount of those losses occurred in the initial knife-fighting of the Sumatra--Malay Campaign.

Subs losses, until recently, have been very light. A total of 6 RO- and 25 I-Boats have been lost. Probably 2/3 of those losses have been in the last six weeks.

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RE: Japanese Losses: DDs and SS - 7/2/2016 2:53:01 PM

John 3rd

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That is the story of the Fleets. Crippling losses for both sides!

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Post #: 2387

Naval Air Production and Research - 7/2/2016 2:57:33 PM

John 3rd

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Shifting over to aircraft production and research. WE begin with the Naval Side:

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RE: Naval Air Production and Research - 7/2/2016 3:19:37 PM

Mike McCreery

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CR isnt acting crippled right now... ;]

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Army Air Production and Research - 7/2/2016 3:22:06 PM

John 3rd

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Here is the last slide we'll use for this session. Army air production shows Franks being built ASAP with heavy research into the next model. Peggy just got going. It is a testament to how far along I have in being spread about three games that I did not NOTICE my Peggys were producing. STUPID.

Am going to take half of those factories and bump them up to the TT carrying Peggy.

Know next to nothing about army aircraft beyond Frank. Could really use suggestions on where to go from here!

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RE: Naval Air Production and Research - 7/2/2016 3:25:13 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

CR isnt acting crippled right now... ;]

I think there is a DAH! factor in that comment!

I am a little fuzzy on Allied Ship production but I do believe that the Allied Players gets one--maybe two--DDs, Cruisers, and Carriers as reinforcements in 1943/1944. Now I could be wrong there. Maybe the Allied player doesn't get any? Hmmm...I could be very confused...

It still boils down to that CV Engagement. I lost all those carriers for no gain. We sank Wasp and a CVE--by SS--and that was it. Complete disaster.

Don't hold your breath currently. We'll see how he tries to exfiltrate from this situation. His only real exit is through Timor. Planes are moving into all bases within the area to see if we can chew him up some.

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 7/2/2016 3:29:42 PM >

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RE: Naval Air Production and Research - 7/2/2016 3:29:35 PM

John 3rd

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I am done Posting for a while. The house has woken up and I am about to rip apart my Laundry Room wall looking for a slow leak that has been causing some issues...

Comment away!

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RE: Naval Air Production and Research - 7/2/2016 3:55:44 PM

JohnDillworth

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Had a water leak in the basement and it was the devil to find. pinhole in a copper pipe, just a fine mist but had to replace the piece of pipe. easier at the joints. Since you asked, I do have one question. you have been marching ships all around the Pacific. Whats the fuel situation look like?

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RE: Naval Air Production and Research - 7/2/2016 4:14:26 PM

BillBrown

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

CR isnt acting crippled right now... ;]

I think there is a DAH! factor in that comment! I am a little fuzzy on Allied Ship production but I do believe that the Allied Players gets one--maybe two--DDs, Cruisers, and Carriers as reinforcements in 1943/1944. Now I could be wrong there. Maybe the Allied player doesn't get any? Hmmm...I could be very confused...

It still boils down to that CV Engagement. I lost all those carriers for no gain. We sank Wasp and a CVE--by SS--and that was it. Complete disaster.

Don't hold your breath currently. We'll see how he tries to exfiltrate from this situation. His only real exit is through Timor. Planes are moving into all bases within the area to see if we can chew him up some.

Really? In my current BTS game I am scheduled to get 21 Fletchers in Dec 1943 alone.

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RE: Naval Air Production and Research - 7/2/2016 4:16:50 PM

John 3rd

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Fuel isn't too bad. As recommended earlier, I have taken my AOs and added them to my TKs to haul fuel up to the Home Islands. There is very little fuel/oil in the eastern resource areas (currently under attack), Tarakan and Balikpapan are currently pretty much dry, and the western producing areas are being pulled as well. Have been hauling equal amounts of oil and fuel to the Home Islands. Very few TK losses so far due to Dan using his SS in more of a tactical role then commerce war. Not complaining about that at all!

As mentioned several times above, I have stockpiled caches of fuel at various points to deal with threats if they should appear. My goal has been to cache enough to refuel the entire fleet for up to a two week operation. Areas currently at that level are Etorofu, Paramushiro Jima, Saipan, Truk, Rabaul, and Tulagi. Singapore and Soerabaja are natural caches. haven't pulled fuel from the Home Islands since mid-42.

Dan's use of SS in tactical purpose has allowed to to bring in my new escorts with much stronger ASW to bolster the Tanker TFs.

All in all I would say that we're OK. Could use more at home and that is what I'm trying to do currently (have nearly 500,000 at sea presently). Had Dan not been so content to keep his CVs from burning up sorties, he might of had a realy chance of sinking about 12-14 of my smaller 1250 T TK. They stayed at Boela and the other base there sucking up oil for about two days longer then they should have. I moved them out but his CVs could have launched at them both days (12th-13th). He didn't so they make a clean getaway. Will unload their oil at Manila and then head to Mili--Sumatra to help move that area's oil-fuel.

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 7/2/2016 4:28:19 PM >

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RE: Naval Air Production and Research - 7/2/2016 4:25:02 PM

John 3rd

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My dratted leak is in the wall that joins my Master Bath and Laundry Room. It is either in the copper piping there or with the shower pan. Am about to breakout the explosives to demolish an 18" by 6' section of drywall and find out...

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RE: Naval Air Production and Research - 7/2/2016 4:28:14 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

CR isnt acting crippled right now... ;]

I think there is a DAH! factor in that comment! I am a little fuzzy on Allied Ship production but I do believe that the Allied Players gets one--maybe two--DDs, Cruisers, and Carriers as reinforcements in 1943/1944. Now I could be wrong there. Maybe the Allied player doesn't get any? Hmmm...I could be very confused...

It still boils down to that CV Engagement. I lost all those carriers for no gain. We sank Wasp and a CVE--by SS--and that was it. Complete disaster.

Don't hold your breath currently. We'll see how he tries to exfiltrate from this situation. His only real exit is through Timor. Planes are moving into all bases within the area to see if we can chew him up some.

Really? In my current BTS game I am scheduled to get 21 Fletchers in Dec 1943 alone.

Ohhhhhh.....so the Allies DO get reinforcement in 1943/1944? Now I understand! Do they get anything in 1945?

Seriously Dan has done great work despite his monstrous losses. The only area that is really bad for him is in CAs sunk (19) but that is mitigated by all those damned Clevelands!

Thanks for playing along Bill and making me laugh and cry at the same time.

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 7/2/2016 4:31:26 PM >

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Hope? - 7/2/2016 4:34:08 PM

John 3rd

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You guys are keeping me in the basement instead of working upstairs. You are all very bad boys!

There is some hope of the near horizon:

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RE: Game Review - 7/2/2016 5:14:29 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Let us start with the Victory Point screen:

AIR
We had an exceptional day in the day today. Overall you see ATA to be nearly even at this late date in the war. The major areas of loss for Japan sits squarely in AA and Operational. We've lost over 15,000 planes. Wow.

GROUND
The victory point spread rests squarely on what I've done to his ground units. Look at the disparity there!

SHIPS
Prior to that debacle of a CV engagement I had the advantage in this area. The loss of all my CVEs, 2 CV, and 4 CVL for little return was horrific. Lessons were learned but at huge cost. Dan has lost over 1,100 ships but his Fleet is immense (as should be) and growing by the day.

Anything else anybody see or want to comment on?

A 3/2 ration in aircraft losses is probably right on tract considering that you both are equal players. This reflects the ratio seen in my campaigns. As Japan you just can't prevent the OP losses or flak and that is the difference. Expect him to start to bring up the kill numbers for your AC destroyed on the ground. The late war Japanese fighters are good but they are hangar queens and it becomes easier for him to kill them on the ground as his air force grows. You probably got parity in fighters for a little while longer but as I said earlier-from this point on you just are not going to be able to compete with his ability to build and support bases. It is just a way of life for Japan later in the game.

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RE: Game Review - 7/2/2016 5:30:12 PM

crsutton

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I think your assessment is pretty good. The massive surface losses on each side pretty much negate themselves (or benefit the Allies). And your carrier force is really going to be about as strong as it would be in stock if you did not lose any carriers, so you will be fairly strong. The big thing is that his carrier losses to date have been so little. He is collecting a massive force and that is going to really push you to get creative. I know that I sound like a broken record but my mantra is that the Allies can recover from just about any disaster as long as they do not lose carriers.

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