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Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 7:50:04 PM

santino250

Posts: 147
Joined: 6/17/2009
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Hi all

I am playing the Allies in 2/45. I just conquered Naha, and had several Carrier TF with over 800 planes..
Pilots all trained over 70 in their attack field- "Escort, Naval Torp, Naval DB, ect" many of my fighter pilots
are over 80 exp. A Japanese TF with 5 carriers and assorted BB, CA, Dest. They attacked and lost almost all of there
Torp bomb, and such, and only had around 50 fighters left...

My force attacked in multiple waves, and never made a hit!! Not once, and lost over 350 planes.. This has been like this since
about 2 patches ago... I can't hit there Carriers!!! My SUb's can.. My carriers are able to hit everything except Carrier TF??
Also, Many of my Airgroups back in USA are not progressing training wise... I've changed commanders, added everything I can think of..
Some of these groups have been training for over a year, and still have not made it to 70 in the attack field I have them training...
I should have tons of trained pilots by 45, but I have very few besides the top pilots I send to training command... Why do only fighters get above 70 expience??

thanks

Post #: 1

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 7:53:17 PM

Anachro

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From: The Coastal Elite
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A picture of your settings for your carriers (and their air groups_ and training groups would be helpful. I don't have the problems you describe; sank 3 Japanese carriers and 2 Japanese light carriers in January 1942 recently in a carrier battle.

< Message edited by Anachro -- 7/4/2016 8:08:13 PM >

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 2

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 8:21:21 PM

santino250

Posts: 147
Joined: 6/17/2009
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I have my carrier fighters set to escort Cap 40 at varying alt. 18k to 14k, I have my DB set to naval and search set to 20, at 10k,
I have the TBF-3's set to naval-with torps, at 4k with search set to 20, I have my CA's CL's Ac set to search 40 at 8k...
they send a large formation but get slaughtered with no hits? All at max range of fighters.

On the home front-Training

I have the Heavy bombers set to training - patrol level 10k, Airfield Attack, 100%

anytime I see anyone with higher than 15 fatigue, I dial it down to 70% I try to put an experienced pilot in each group...

Does their Base matter? I notice my east coast planes train faster than My other bases.. all bases built to max level.. and have supplies..

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Post #: 3

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 8:31:48 PM

Yaab

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From: Poland
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For fastest training:

- air HQ present at the base - this is a MUST
- biggest airfield possible
- as many avaition support squads as you can spare
- plenty of supply
- great leader, range 0 etc.

In my opinion, air HQ has the greatest influence on training speed.

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 4

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 8:38:17 PM

Anachro

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From: The Coastal Elite
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Are you saying that your escorts are not escorting your bombers towards the enemy carriers? If that's the case and your bombers are getting chewed up as a result, it's no wonder you aren't getting any hits. What range do you have your escorts set to?

(in reply to Yaab)

Post #: 5

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 8:38:29 PM

santino250

Posts: 147
Joined: 6/17/2009
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And the strange thing is I had very good success pre 44 in bombing other Carrier TF's, but have had horrible results since...

I have to keep my Carriers as defensive in regards to enemy carriers...

here is one of my saves right before battle near NAHA...

tried to upload my saved game as zip and was rejected???

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 6

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 8:41:32 PM

santino250

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I have them all set to a range of 10...DB,TB and escorts... and in this battle the enemy is 6 spaces away

a few escorts show, like 20....

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 7

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 8:42:52 PM

Anachro

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From: The Coastal Elite
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post the save on dropbox or something and I can take a look at it...is this with DBB? vanilla?

What's the fatigue like on your carriers for your air groups?

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 8

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 8:47:39 PM

santino250

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Dropbox??

I tried to upload the zipped save and was denied

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 9

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 8:48:56 PM

Anachro

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From: The Coastal Elite
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https://www.dropbox.com/

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 10

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 8:58:51 PM

santino250

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here is the dropbox link

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1czxuxf0nav7ou6/wpae013.pws?dl=0

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 11

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 9:19:14 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: santino250

I have my carrier fighters set to escort Cap 40 at varying alt. 18k to 14k, I have my DB set to naval and search set to 20, at 10k,
I have the TBF-3's set to naval-with torps, at 4k with search set to 20, I have my CA's CL's Ac set to search 40 at 8k...
they send a large formation but get slaughtered with no hits? All at max range of fighters.

This is the source of all or most of your results.

Only 60% of your fighters are even available for Escort. Of those, you set them far above the strike package. A mile and a half above the DBs, and so far above the TBs they are transiting naked.

Set the entire strike package at one altitude. Make sure it's above minimum dive-bombing altitude. The TBs will dive to attack height automatically. Transit them with the escorts. If you set the altitudes all the same the escorts will auto-fly at 2000 feet above; the code does this invisibly.

USN carriers cannot strike at ranges greater than 7 hexes. The only time you want to set range greater than that is for Search, and in that case you may have DBs and TBs searching naked. If you set Escort to 10, then the 40% on CAP will CAP out to 10 hexes, which guts your TF protection.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2519074

So you had attack planes going in alone pretty much. If you watch the replay slowly I'd bet you see a lot of "jettison ordnance" text lines as your attackers dump in order to evade. Beyond that they were jinking all over the sky trying to live, and aim isn't good in that case. Then they hit AA fragmented. It's no wonder you got no hits.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 7/4/2016 9:23:28 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 9:21:27 PM

geofflambert

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From: St. Louis
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The weather wins the battle every time, because it doesn't care, and it can turn geniuses into morons. What was the weather over your target when each wave arrived?

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 13

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/4/2016 9:34:05 PM

Anachro

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Looking through the save. Some things I noticed:

1. Fatigue is a little high on some, but not too bad.
2. You had a couple of your fighter groups set to training - escort instead of on escort.
4. Additionally, some of your escorts were still targeted towards Naha.
5. Your torpedo bombers were set low to 4k altitude. I thought I read somewhere it needs to be at least 6k, but I could be wrong. I set them to a mix of 6k/7k, not to mention the lower they are the farther they are from your escorts if you set your escorts too high
6. Try to better mixup the altitudes of your bomber groups to achieve better coordination.

The multiple waves seems tough, but I managed to pack quite a punch against the enemy carriers in your save: intelligence says I sunk 3 main carriers and 3 light carriers. Overall, I think altitude settings and air coordination are the main things you need to focus on. I'd recommend the Air Coordination guide in the War Room sub-forum.

quote:

Japanese Ships
CA Yakumo
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CVL Zuiho, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Adatara, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Kumotori, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Urakaze
DD Asashimo
DD Asagochi, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Anzu
DD Shikinami
DD Chinen
BB Fuji, Bomb hits 6, on fire
DD Otori

CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk

CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
BB Fuji, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 11, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Yakumo, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Mikuma, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CL Kumotori
DD Tatsukaze
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Akebono, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Noyate, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Shiokaze, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

(in reply to santino250)

Post #: 14

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/5/2016 10:54:57 AM

geofflambert

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Good points but as I recall (and someone will correct me if I'm not, as usual) the altitude you set for your escorts is completely irrelevant. My understanding is they will come in 2k above what they are escorting, regardless.

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 15

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/5/2016 3:45:28 PM

crsutton

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There are just too many unknown for anyone here to offer up creative suggestions. Leaders, morale, fatigue, air group settings, weather in the hex, range, TF composition, difficulty setting, DL of the enemy (critical). You need to post a lot of screen shots and combat reports before you are going to get any real help. Three critical things that can affect coordination of strikes in carrier fight. First is DL. If you don't have a good DL number on the enemy then you will most likely go in uncoordinated. Second is weather, bad weather in a target hex causes loss of accuracy and can cause loss of coordination (due to low DL). Third is number of carriers in your TF. If you have too many you increase the chance of lack of coordination. Personally, I think the risk is low and tend to over stack my carriers but you may have just been the unlucky one and paid the penalty. Could be one of these factors played out, could be all three and then some. But we don't know.

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Post #: 16

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/6/2016 9:11:54 AM

paradigmblue

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From: Fairbanks, Alaska
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I think Anachro demonstrated pretty conclusively that it was just a matter of ensuring that the squadrons were set correctly.

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RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/6/2016 2:55:50 PM

AcePylut

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IIRC Dive bombers need to be at an alt of 11k to dive bomb, if they are set below that the glide-bomb and don't hit squat...

but someone, please clarify!

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Post #: 18

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/6/2016 6:59:59 PM

paradigmblue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

IIRC Dive bombers need to be at an alt of 11k to dive bomb, if they are set below that the glide-bomb and don't hit squat...

but someone, please clarify!

Dive Bomber altitudes:

<1k - Low-level attack
1k-9k - Normal Level Bombing Attack
10k-14k - Diving Attack, Exit Altitude 1k-4k
16k-19k - Glide Attack, Exit Altitude 2k-5k
20k+ - Normal Level Bombing Attack

(in reply to AcePylut)

Post #: 19

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/6/2016 7:03:37 PM

Anachro

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I think those are correct, paradigmblue, but I want to ask/confirm something with you all. Are these the same altitudes for training as well, because I think I recall that on some of my bombers when training for naval attack, I've had them gain in low-level nav bombing skill at any altitudes below 5k, but I could be remembering wrong.

(in reply to paradigmblue)

Post #: 20

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/6/2016 7:56:44 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

I think those are correct, paradigmblue, but I want to ask/confirm something with you all. Are these the same altitudes for training as well, because I think I recall that on some of my bombers when training for naval attack, I've had them gain in low-level nav bombing skill at any altitudes below 5k, but I could be remembering wrong.

While the penalty for level bombers (reduced bomb load) kicks in below 6k you have to set 1k to train in Low (Anything).

Training at anything above 1k results in gains to the normal bombing skill, Nav or Grnd.

Training for Low skill at 1k also spurs gains in Defense.

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Post #: 21

RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/11/2016 4:01:12 PM

Macclan5

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From: Toronto Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paradigmblue

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

IIRC Dive bombers need to be at an alt of 11k to dive bomb, if they are set below that the glide-bomb and don't hit squat...

but someone, please clarify!

Dive Bomber altitudes:

<1k - Low-level attack
1k-9k - Normal Level Bombing Attack
10k-14k - Diving Attack, Exit Altitude 1k-4k
16k-19k - Glide Attack, Exit Altitude 2k-5k
20k+ - Normal Level Bombing Attack

Indeed this is a direct quote from information readily available.

I would encourage ALL new players to read the top two threads in the WAR ROOM forum as they answer all these questions in full.

1) Air Coordination Guide
2) FAQ's for Newbies which is quotes above

Just scrolling through those threads has made my game 100% better.

--

Additionally as linked in those same threads - Sadaukar's Newbie AAR provides tremendous insight for your first ever Grand Campaign.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4111324

Ser Sadaukar opines in pages 1 and 2 about his Carrier Task Force Air OOB.

QUOTE: By the way, if someone wonders why I set all of my Dive Bombers and Torpedo Bombers, both land and on CVs to 13 000ft, explanation is this:

Escort fighters fly 2k above strike planes, so putting strike to 13k puts escort fighters to 15k. This is inside the optimum altitude band of Allied early war fighters. 15k is actually the highest altitude for max maneuverability of about all early war Allied fighters. Putting strike at for example 15k would put fighters to 17k and already above "best altitude". And putting attack planes to 10k would put them at 12k..which is sub-optimal too, while in best altitude band, they'd be lacking that extra 3k of altitude..and altitude advantage can be crucial.

--

Generally his initial settings as I recall are:

1) Set Carrier Fighters at Escort ~ 50% CAP ~ Altitude = 15000

2) Set all Dive Bombers / Torpedo Bombers at Naval Attack ~ Altitude = 13000 as per above.

--

With minor refinements (personal choice) I set my early war carriers (till mid 1943) defaults as follows:

1) Fighters ~ Escort : 30% Training 10% Rest 10% Alt = 15000

2) Dive Bombers ~ Naval Attack : Search 10% Training (secondary) Airfield Attack 10% Rest 10% Alt = 13000

3) Torpedo Bombers ~ Naval Attack ASW 10% Training (secondary) Port Attack 10% Rest 10% Alt = 13000. Further in a carrier TF I will mix some with Torpedo's some with Bombs until USN Torpedo's become reliable in 1943.

But those settings are cruising settings... so that you never get caught flatfooted.

You still have to manage / optimize them if you intend to engage a target be it Naval or Land based.

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RE: Carrier battle problems - 7/12/2016 5:46:13 PM

geofflambert

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From: St. Louis
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Where did this Macclan5 fellow come from? My experience is that smarter and smarter fellows become forumites over time, but my theory has been that they see that I'm here and realize that they will be forgotten by history if they don't come in as well. In the case of Macclan5, I must have truly outdone myself. Three cheers for me!

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Post #: 23