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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 4:08:38 PM   
Lokasenna


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Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

John prevailed in the Sumatra campaign, but at consequences like this.



I think you are reading too much into the effects of Sumatra. That was a real victory for him; it had no bearing on the situation now.



Not tangibly... but I'm sure it factors into John's considerations and has definitely affected his strategic decisions. What if the reason he's throwing everything at the latest hotspot is because it worked once (in 1942 on Sumatra)? He may be making assumptions that he dealt the Allies such a heavy blow on Sumatra that if he can just wipe out another invasion force, he'll be able to force a longer stalemate and draw out the game until the victory conditions calendar favors him.

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 7381
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 4:09:27 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		This game has seen non-stop action since we resumed in December. The fun is due in part to our styles of play, warts and all. And to the fact that we're of similar age and have many other similarities. It's a great deal of fun. I'm having a blast.

I'm also exhausted! Every turn is tense. Ever turn involves a thousand clicks.

My ultimate objective in the game is to beat John III, my esteemed yet nefarious (and sometimes irritating) opponent. I don't care how or when the game ends as long as the Allies emerge victorious. If the Imperial comamnd concedes in shame in 1943, its good. If the Allies march into Tokyo in June '45, so be it. But the ultimate objective is the good man working behind the counter at the LaSalle, Colorado, Subway. He is the Evil Emporer.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7382
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 4:10:57 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

"I bet the Marianas and Truk are crowded and hot this time of year. Looks like the beaches in Sorong are empty, and the water is nice! Bring the KB. Come for a swim!"



I like this one. Come on in, the water's warm.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7383
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 4:13:59 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I agree that Sumatra shouldn't have had an effect beyond Sumatra (but even that was helpful in that it tied down John for eight months), but the fact is that it did have a profound effect beyond Sumatra. That's because of John's style of play. Had John resigned and a globally-minded player taken over, it'd be a different proposition altogether. But part of playing is knowing an opponent's tendencies and weaknesses. John leaves holes in his defenses. Sumatra materially aided with hole-development.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 7384
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 4:33:01 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I agree that Sumatra shouldn't have had an effect beyond Sumatra (but even that was helpful in that it tied down John for eight months), but the fact is that it did have a profound effect beyond Sumatra. That's because of John's style of play. Had John resigned and a globally-minded player taken over, it'd be a different proposition altogether. But part of playing is knowing an opponent's tendencies and weaknesses. John leaves holes in his defenses. Sumatra materially aided with hole-development.

I must say, you are playing your opponent quite masterfully. If this was RL and he got sacked by higher authority you would have to start the mind games all over again!

< Message edited by witpqs -- 7/5/2016 4:57:59 PM >

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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 7385
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 4:48:35 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		This bluster is exactly how John is. This playing style is exactly how John is. It is as predictable as the rising of the sun.

I played him once in WITP. He ran all over the Pacific with the KB shooting up transports and the like until a divided KB was defeated by USN carriers near Tahiti. Even after that he attacked Perth but Sigint picked up the prep and the attack was stopped with big losses. Then in January 43 the Allies landed behind a big Jap Army at Moulmein and ran wild until he gave up the game.

I don't think he is constitutionally able to prepare for a solid anticipatory defense

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 7386
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 5:21:55 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I think he does try to use bluster to get under the skin of his opponents or give false information to cause uncertainty but I am pretty sure CR has figured this out.
Gloating over victories can be annoying but you just have to get past it because it is quite fun to play an opponent who might show up anywhere at anytime.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7387
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 5:50:12 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I don't think he is constitutionally able to prepare for a solid anticipatory defense


Is anyone?

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7388
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 5:52:54 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I don't think he is constitutionally able to prepare for a solid anticipatory defense


Is anyone?


Yes, The Italian

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 7389
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 6:54:30 PM   
Jellicoe


Posts: 157
Joined: 9/26/2012
From: Kent, UK
Status: offline 		Indeed!

Greyjoy ground Q-ball into the ground and made him pay for every tiny gain in pretty much exactly the same spot on the map that Canoerebel has just waltzed in and taken without a by your leave. If I recall Q-ball ultimately conceded the game after Greyjoy bled him dry with multiple KB ambushes and shocking CVE losses. Q-ball also had the advantage of holding the whole Australian coastline including Darwin which Greyjoy had evacuated.

Truly a study in contrasting Japanese play styles

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7390
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 7:35:08 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

Indeed!

Greyjoy ground Q-ball into the ground and made him pay for every tiny gain in pretty much exactly the same spot on the map that Canoerebel has just waltzed in and taken without a by your leave. If I recall Q-ball ultimately conceded the game after Greyjoy bled him dry with multiple KB ambushes and shocking CVE losses. Q-ball also had the advantage of holding the whole Australian coastline including Darwin which Greyjoy had evacuated.

Truly a study in contrasting Japanese play styles

quote:

Indeed!

Greyjoy ground Q-ball into the ground and made him pay for every tiny gain in pretty much exactly the same spot on the map that Canoerebel has just waltzed in and taken without a by your leave. If I recall Q-ball ultimately conceded the game after Greyjoy bled him dry with multiple KB ambushes and shocking CVE losses. Q-ball also had the advantage of holding the whole Australian coastline including Darwin which Greyjoy had evacuated.

Truly a study in contrasting Japanese play styles


Ah, Greyjoy! I learned how to spell from him. If I had the time I would create a mod with a map showing the Greyjoy place names. The allied code breakers would have had fits with that

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Jellicoe)
Post #: 7391
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 7:45:40 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

Indeed!

Greyjoy ground Q-ball into the ground and made him pay for every tiny gain in pretty much exactly the same spot on the map that Canoerebel has just waltzed in and taken without a by your leave. If I recall Q-ball ultimately conceded the game after Greyjoy bled him dry with multiple KB ambushes and shocking CVE losses. Q-ball also had the advantage of holding the whole Australian coastline including Darwin which Greyjoy had evacuated.

Truly a study in contrasting Japanese play styles


Yes. Precisely the same islands. Every dot hex had a garrison. Interlocking airfields. Minefields. Mobile forces behind reading to exploit.

(in reply to Jellicoe)
Post #: 7392
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 7:49:12 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Then Mr Kane did the same to GreyJoy as well! That game ground down when the Allies simply couldn't break through at all due to never being able to gain air superiority.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 7393
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/5/2016 9:47:22 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/20/43

Big Tent: A good day as Death Star bleeds enemy carrier air and reasserts its position in the Ceram Sea with minor losses.

Death Star's journey is uneventful, though she only makes four hexes due to refueling. She ends up two hexes east of Boela. KB moved strongy west and ended up eight hexes to the north, east of Morotai. Unescorted Judys sortied in large numbers and were downed in larged numbers, though they did manage to get through bleedover CAP and damage some empty AKAs and a few other ships north of Death Star. On the day, John lost 130+ Judys. He also lost about 70-80 Jills and Lilies against bleedover CAP in strikes against shipping at Boela.

John should be able to replace Judys with land-based squadrons, but the day's frustrations may leave him leery of Death Star (what if it jumps north tomorrow? he'll have to consider that). Or it may leave him so frustrated that he pounces.

Death Star and most of the herd will take position a hex east of Boela tomorrow as many other TFs head into port there - I'm going to try to unload a bunch of strat-loaded troops, some supply and fuel, and position one AE and two TKs in port for replenishing activity. Two combat TFs will patrol to provide protection. Here there be danger due to proximity of enemy LBA plus the possiblity of raiding combat TFs or a KB strike, though I rate that as improbable.

Enemy land-based fighters flew in waves against Sorong's meager CAP, manhandling the Kittyhawk IV, which apparently doesn't belong in this arena.

The Allies took Babo, Kai-Ellenden and Taberfane. The bombardment at Dobo shows it's a bit too strongly held for the Canadians until they are reinforced and get more supply. The enemy division fragment has about 40 AV - not strong, but not coup-de-main weak either.

Babo and Boela produce a combined 45 fuel. Not a huge deal, but since I can't strat bomb 'til '44 it's a little progress (especially combined with the near destruction of Merak earlier).

Sorong airfield should go to level two in a day or two. Morotai is a day from level one. Manikwari is probably a week from level two. Boela needs engineers (coming ashore tonight, hopefully) to get airfield building underway.

Third Ring: Bombing of Horn Island has trashed it. PM and Merauke are tougher nuts. PM is mostly damaged. Merauke is about 20% damaged.

Bearded Lady: Washington is ten hexes east of Maloelap and seems to be safely away from enemy air, if not yet enemy subs.


< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 7/5/2016 9:51:10 PM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7394
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 12:08:55 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Lots of Allied and Japanese forces in close proximity. Interesting. Colorful. Dangerous.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 7395
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 12:54:25 AM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		How many subs do you own? I see 6 subs. you should have 2 dozen in this part of the world

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 7396
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 1:00:55 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		A lot of JFB's never even really bother with Boela and Babo. The ports are super small, and it is difficult to pull the oil from them.

I would wish you good luck, but you don't need any anymore.

So, instead, my your turns be interesting...which so far they have been.


(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7397
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 1:01:49 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Not yet. There are currently nine in theater with another returning to Oz to refuel. A half-dozen more are inbound and close. But many of the vast number of subs posted around the Marshalls are low enough on fuel that it doesn't make sense to bring them over. Rather than send them to Big Tent for a day or two, they'll head that way after replenishing.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 7/6/2016 1:06:46 AM >

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 7398
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 1:03:58 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		John was working Babo. I had subs posted off the mouth of the bit occasionally in early '43. There were quite a few contacts with TKs. But it mightn't have been more than a minimal amount of fuel he was getting.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 7399
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 1:59:21 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
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quote:

Sumatra was not effective, it was a massive defeat for the Allies.


If the objective was to make the game interesting and avoid the "doldrums" period where the Japanese are building defenses while the Allies gather strength, then the Sumatra campaign must be considered a brilliant success for Canoerebel.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7400
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 8:07:31 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		I think Alfred got it right, CR lost the battle for Sabang, but JIII wasted the victory.

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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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Post #: 7401
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 11:43:27 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		No Alfred got it wrong.

CR took the initiative away from John and kept it.

He has not relinquished and will not from here out.

At Sumatra John started reacting instead of acting. He has been reacting ever since and will continue doing so for the remainder of the game.

Regardless of what he lost he tied down the bulk of the Japanese army and navy and forced it to spend '43 reconquering already conquered territory instead of either expanding further or building up defenses.

Sumatra was an Allied strategic victory.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 7/6/2016 11:46:17 AM >

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 7402
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 12:02:20 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		My wife and I will be out of town today. John will be out of town tomorrow and Friday. So I'll probably get the turn from him when I'm back tomorrow. But other than that we're on a brief hiatus.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 7403
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 1:03:15 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

No Alfred got it wrong.

CR took the initiative away from John and kept it.

He has not relinquished and will not from here out.

At Sumatra John started reacting instead of acting. He has been reacting ever since and will continue doing so for the remainder of the game.

Regardless of what he lost he tied down the bulk of the Japanese army and navy and forced it to spend '43 reconquering already conquered territory instead of either expanding further or building up defenses.

Sumatra was an Allied strategic victory.


Too early to tell...if John spent the time preparing his defenses within a 25 hex circle of Honshu...well, then perhaps he hasn't lost. But he has lost the initiative (how many JFBs have the initiative in 44?).

I don't see the point of Japan using 43 to extend their borders. John did seek a carrier battle in 43 and was chastised for it...but is still in strong CV shape. But he seems to be looking for another fight which argues against a turtle defense.

John earned a boatload of victory points that won't go away, and with prudent use of supplies, plane r&d, and ground troops, he could set up a really strong nest style defense while trading space for time elsewhere.

Just a thought. I am always wrong about these kind of things however.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 7404
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 4:53:07 PM   
poodlebrain

 

Posts: 392
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From: Comfy Chair in Baton Rouge
Status: offline
quote:

John earned a boatload of victory points that won't go away, and with prudent use of supplies, plane r&d, and ground troops, he could set up a really strong nest style defense while trading space for time elsewhere.
The problem is that CR has been taking more space in less time than John can afford. The constant pressure has made it difficult for John to tidy up his perimeter when John has been forced to focus on preventing its collapse. CR's efficient, and quite effective, use of the initiative he gained at Sumatra has been writing the tale of this game for the last year. John is just along to play the foil.

_____________________________

Never trust a man who's ass is wider than his shoulders.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7405
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 5:29:32 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain
CR's efficient, and quite effective, use of the initiative he gained at Sumatra has been writing the tale of this game for the last year. John is just along to play the foil.


No initiative was gained in Sumatra. Period. The IJ shouldn't be expanding in late 43. They should be doing exactly what Lowpe and Alfred have mentioned, along with others including myself over many iterations of this discussion; preparing for defense, counterpunching judiciously and conserving economic resources for the future.

What I think upon further consideration is that (obviously) Dan played this entire game catered to JIII and it would have been very different had it been a different player. This psychological understanding of an opponent is probably his biggest strength as an AE player. He also doesn't get too rattled when something (even major) goes wrong and he simply plans a creative solution to counter the problem (the almost Hokkaido and actual Aleutians and Cent Pac invasions after Sumatra).

In a subjective sense, playing against JIII, Sumatra may have been a positive for the Allies psychologically, as it somehow led him to believe he could pleasure cruise the KB anywhere and disregard his preparation behind the lines. Had it been njp72, Lowpe, Lokasenna, me or just about any other Japanese player at that point, they would have conceded the Eastern Aleutians and Cent Pac and used the time to avoid what is now happening in game by reorganizing and allocating forces to likely Allied invasion vectors; No Pac, So Pac and Cent Pac. They would have also tucked away the KB for a surprise moment later.

I'm beginning to understand Dan's idea about Sumatra, because I see that he is only seeing this in a subjective sense, playing this game against JIII, where some of us see other possibilities outside of that dual psychology.

Whatever. He's kickin serious ass now, and it's fun to watch.

< Message edited by obvert -- 7/6/2016 5:32:30 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to poodlebrain)
Post #: 7406
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 7:37:48 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

Indeed!

Greyjoy ground Q-ball into the ground and made him pay for every tiny gain in pretty much exactly the same spot on the map that Canoerebel has just waltzed in and taken without a by your leave. If I recall Q-ball ultimately conceded the game after Greyjoy bled him dry with multiple KB ambushes and shocking CVE losses. Q-ball also had the advantage of holding the whole Australian coastline including Darwin which Greyjoy had evacuated.

Truly a study in contrasting Japanese play styles


IIRC there was a change made in response to 'impregnable cap' complaints that that limited the # of attacking passes (200?) made by the cap. With adequate escort is was easy to overwhelm the formerly impregnable cap without having any attacking bombers touched. Needless to say, the results were devastating. Anybody for a 20mm vs. .50cal argument? Good times. Good times.

(in reply to Jellicoe)
Post #: 7407
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 9:10:15 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

No initiative was gained in Sumatra. Period. The IJ shouldn't be expanding in late 43. They should be doing exactly what Lowpe and Alfred have mentioned, along with others including myself over many iterations of this discussion; preparing for defense, counterpunching judiciously and conserving economic resources for the future.



Stating categorically that the initiative didn't change hands won't change my mind on the subject.

I couldn't agree with you and Alfred more about what a Japanese player should be doing in '43.

However, we see plenty of games with the Japanese continuing to run rampant in '43, mostly due to an Allied player struggling to figure out how to wrest the initiative from him.

Dan accomplished it. Sure the operational initiative swung back to J3 for the duration of the time it took him to destroy the invading forces, but the strategic initiative had been wrested from him and has not been returned.

This is what is supposed to happen, so it isn't the greatest feat ever accomplished in AE, but after seeing so many Allied players struggle to accomplish it, I feel its worth lauding as an accomplishment.

nuff said....I won't belabor the point any further.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 7408
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/6/2016 10:09:13 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

nuff said....I won't belabor the point any further.



I wouldn't say that, you have very interesting insights that cause me to think.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 7409
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 7/7/2016 4:27:27 AM   
Mike McCreery


Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline 		The Sabang Campaign and the Carrier duel in the pacific are 2 separate events.

I am not sure whether actions can be defined as right or wrong in this game.

John is not a strong defensive and/or late game player so all the advantages are to CR now.

< Message edited by Wargmr -- 7/7/2016 4:30:20 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7410
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