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Matrix's Surviving WON... - 9/23/2000 3:52:00 AM

moore4807

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Dear Gents and Gamers, I may be jumping the gun but reading between the lines about Talonsoft's actions scuttling WON

, it would seem that this hits a developing gaming company like Matrix below the financial belt. I dont even pretend to know the total picture but even I have enough common sense to realize that you need income to survive. If you post a site here where we can send money or use our credit cards, I would gladly pay you ($25-bronze/$50-silver/$100-gold)for a years membership in a Matrix Wargamers Club- This would be either yearly or permanent fee to get into those secret development rooms of yours! And more importantly keep your Matrix families eating and paying those bills. I've seen in a very short time how serious you are about wargaming- I'm willing to show you how serious I am about supporting your efforts

.

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- 9/23/2000 4:02:00 AM

GulFalco

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Sounds good to me, hell I'm gonna buy the War in the Pacific game even though I probably won't play it much, just because I want Matrix to make it. ------------------ Men are cheap, but women can never be payed for. Napoleon

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Post #: 2

- 9/23/2000 4:47:00 AM

Marc Hameleers

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From: Amsterdam, Netherlands
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This sounds like a good plan....If there is anything we gamers can do to help you guys, let us know!!!! Marc

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Post #: 3

- 9/23/2000 6:10:00 AM

Grok

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I like moore4807's idea... I'd like to suggest these possibilities as well: pre-sale of upcoming games, T-shirts with Matrix logo and some wording about WON, or small Matrix logo with large cover art of different games, caps, jackets...etc The ideas are endless ------------------ understanding requires patience Grok

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Post #: 4

- 9/23/2000 8:42:00 AM

Joe Osborne

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You guys are fabulous...I don't know what to say. As part of the Matrix team I just want to thank you for your kindness and support. We at Matrix are in this for the long haul, as we believe in the wargaming community as a great market to support. The guys here at Matrix are all dyed-in-the-wool long time wargamers who have set out on a mission. We intend to run this company and design and produce war games and provide additional wargaming support of a caliber we have always expected and rarely received. Yes, this sets us back a bit, and some of your ideas for generating income are indeed interesting. So far the "wolves" (and I speak only for myself in this matter

) are not at the door. We actually have discussed selling Matrix hats, shirts, etc. and who knows this may become a reality. The idea of offering subscriptions for a Wargamers Club however, is interesting, something we've kicked around a bit, but haven't implemented. As always we'd be willing to listen to any ideas you folks might have. Thanks again for your kindness and support. It actually helps to be appreciated!!

Regards, Joe Osborne Director Matrix Games Network

quote:

Originally posted by Grok: I like moore4807's idea... I'd like to suggest these possibilities as well: pre-sale of upcoming games, T-shirts with Matrix logo and some wording about WON, or small Matrix logo with large cover art of different games, caps, jackets...etc The ideas are endless

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Post #: 5

- 9/23/2000 9:44:00 AM

Grok

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I couldn't get moore4807s' idea out of my mind, and one thing led to another. It's really off the wall. Why not "sell" the right to a new skunk works room, where a totally new game can be designed from scratch? Only, everyone who buys into it will have a chance at determining what the new game will be. From subject matter, to design, to development, to play testing. I know this was done during SPWAW, but that was a game that was already existing. This would give the gamers an opportunity to get in on the ground floor. Each decision could be voted on by the gamers. The research and design could be done by gamers as well and the programming would be handled by Matrix Games. This project would not have to take precedence over anything existing in the works at Matrix games. Matrix Games would still retain all rights to the program and authority to moderate that board. The price for all this could be $100-$200 per gamer for the duration of that project. Not only would Matrix Games gain cash flow, but the gamers would actually see THEIR ideas used in a totally new game designed by them and maybe published as well. I for one would go buy that game...and where else can a gamer pay only $200.00 + $40.00(retail price of game) to have their game developed, published and then actually played? Warned you it was a wild idea... Whatever is eventually decided count me in 100% !!! ------------------ understanding requires patience Grok

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Post #: 6

- 9/23/2000 1:29:00 PM

Marc Hameleers

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Hi, Although this is a very interesting idea, i doubt that having a few hundred gamers combine their wishes will result in good game. Probably it will end up a monster of a game, ranging from roman times to space opera warfare and from single soldier scale to movement of armies

However, the wargame club really is a great idea. Somethings that could be included in membership: -A newsletter -10% off games purchased in preorder -10% off t-shirts etc. -access to the beta tester forums -garantueed access to beta testing for one game ( perhaps more for gold membership) Matrix could also use the members for general feedback....What game to produce next, etc Marc -

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Post #: 7

- 9/23/2000 1:34:00 PM

moore4807

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quote:

Originally posted by Grok: Why not "sell" the right to a new skunk works room, where a totally new game can be designed from scratch? Only, everyone who buys into it will have a chance at determining what the new game will be. From subject matter, to design, to development, to play testing. I know this was done during SPWAW, but that was a game that was already existing. This would give the gamers an opportunity to get in on the ground floor. Each decision could be voted on by the gamers. The research and design could be done by gamers as well and the programming would be handled by Matrix Games. This project would not have to take precedence over anything existing in the works at Matrix games. Matrix Games would still retain all rights to the program and authority to moderate that board. The price for all this could be $100-$200 per gamer for the duration of that project. Not only would Matrix Games gain cash flow, but the gamers would actually see THEIR ideas used in a totally new game designed by them and maybe published as well. I for one would go buy that game...and where else can a gamer pay only $200.00 + $40.00(retail price of game) to have their game developed, published and then actually played? Warned you it was a wild idea...

Yo Grok, Why do you think its such a wild idea? I'm right there with you... (unless that makes me... Nahh) I think the whole idea would mesh together well but would take some planning. I do have experience with fundraising (Fire/EMS shirts, hats, jackets etc.)and have some knowledge of subscription services. The biggest drawback to this is clothing is generally small revenue stuff and more for P/R advertising than true cashflow. Subscription with a buy in is where the big kills are made. It has a double positive effect, if successful in that 1) It's all positive cashflow and 2) It also easier to show investors (the ones with the DEEP pockets) when the buzz gets around about it being sucessful. Your idea- even better than mine I might add- would allow Matrix to show potential investors the amount of interest in wargaming by PAYING members AND defray production costs = greater profits long term. What we get out of it for a small fee is the input you talked about AND a steady supply of wargames... Sounds good to me! Jim

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- 9/23/2000 2:31:00 PM

Grok

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Hey Jim... Thanks for the support of the idea, and its really YOUR idea(maybe thats why you like it?) I just added a little to it. If enough others post to this thread and give postive feedback as you have, then maybe the guys at Matrix will consider it. I agree that it would take some planning, but I think it would be well worth it all around. Moore4807:"Subscription with a buy in is where the big kills are made. It has a double positive effect, if successful in that 1) It's all positive cashflow and 2) It also easier to show investors (the ones with the DEEP pockets) when the buzz gets around about it being sucessful." You pointed out some important aspects that would eventually have an impact on Matrix Games. I'm sure there a lot of people out there that can add to this with their good ideas and if it takes off, with their abilities and talents as well. I do want to stress that the project would have nothing to do with the regular administration, operations, or any other business related matters of Matrix Games. That if such a project were to ever be a reality, it would be worked on as time and resources permit on the part of Matrix Games(and thats all the legal lingua I know). ------------------ understanding requires patience Grok

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Post #: 9

- 9/23/2000 3:14:00 PM

Joe Osborne

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This idea is indeed of having a game designed by wargamers in general is very interesting. The logistics would indeed have to be worked out. My initial thought to this was similar to Marc's "Probably it will end up a monster of a game, ranging from roman times to space opera warfare and from single soldier scale to movement of armies" But if managed properly, and setup properly it could have some merit. I'd like to hear more details. The subscription idea is also fascinating, and I saw Marc's post re:"Wargamer Club" ideas...not bad. I'd like to hear more ideas along both of these lines... Anyone else? Regards, Joe Osborne Director Matrix Games Network

quote:

Originally posted by Grok: Hey Jim... Thanks for the support of the idea, and its really YOUR idea(maybe thats why you like it?) I just added a little to it. If enough others post to this thread and give postive feedback as you have, then maybe the guys at Matrix will consider it. I agree that it would take some planning, but I think it would be well worth it all around. Moore4807:"Subscription with a buy in is where the big kills are made. It has a double positive effect, if successful in that 1) It's all positive cashflow and 2) It also easier to show investors (the ones with the DEEP pockets) when the buzz gets around about it being sucessful." You pointed out some important aspects that would eventually have an impact on Matrix Games. I'm sure there a lot of people out there that can add to this with their good ideas and if it takes off, with their abilities and talents as well. I do want to stress that the project would have nothing to do with the regular administration, operations, or any other business related matters of Matrix Games. That if such a project were to ever be a reality, it would be worked on as time and resources permit on the part of Matrix Games(and thats all the legal lingua I know).

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- 9/23/2000 4:57:00 PM

degen

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Where we purchase the games will also make a difference to Matrix. To avoid the middle man taking a share of Matrix's profits, we, the core group that visit this site, should purchase our games directly from Matrix rather than from the retail stores. We will pay a little extra on shipping and need to be patient to wait for the games to arrive, but we will be helping Matrix maximize what it earns from games sales.

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- 9/23/2000 6:28:00 PM

Grok

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Joe Osborne:"But if managed properly, and setup properly it could have some merit. I'd like to hear more details." Intially, I hesitated in posting too much detail, for I had worked out most of the fundamentals, but I wanted to know what others thought of the basic idea. And truley it was Jim's(Moore4807)idea that steered me in this direction. Pricing for involvement for this project would be up to Matrix Games. My earlier post of that example was arbitrary and was not meant as absolute. I was thinking of a management group of 10 gamers, who would be nominated and elected by the rest of the gamers involved with the project. These 10 people would be responsible for sifting through all submissions(theme, design, development), clarifying them and making sure that they fit within the agreed upon proposal. Then presenting that material to Matrix Games where it would be determined if it would be feasible to work with. Since each person involved would have a say so, it would undoubtly be a huge task. But by having the gamers who propose these ideas do the research and some of the mechanics, it would help minimize the work of the management group. If further work needed to be done then it could be presented back to the gamers to work with it more. The management group would not be deciding what would go into the game, just making sure it fit whatever the game is supposed to be. The selection of the game subject and all related items would be decided by majority. And once the ONE theme had been decided then everyone would work towards developing it. Unfortuantely, not everyones wish or idea will be able to be used. However, if the first game worked out, and the gamers were still inclined to continue with designing new games and Matrix agreed, then everyone would have a second chance at getting their game made. Failing that, if Matrix decided to design a game using someones subject matter or idea(s) maybe Matrix could compensate them in some way(co-designer, co-developer)? I have no doubt that this endeavour would take some time before we're able to see the fruits of our labors in production. But everyone would get a taste of what goes into a game as well being part of its making. It would give new meaning to.."games for gamers by gamers" ------------------ understanding requires patience Grok

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Post #: 12

- 9/23/2000 6:31:00 PM

Grok

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quote:

Originally posted by degen: Where we purchase the games will also make a difference to Matrix. To avoid the middle man taking a share of Matrix's profits, we, the core group that visit this site, should purchase our games directly from Matrix rather than from the retail stores. We will pay a little extra on shipping and need to be patient to wait for the games to arrive, but we will be helping Matrix maximize what it earns from games sales.

Another good idea... Since I'm going to buy Matrix games, might as well give every cent to them, instead of a percentage. And I wouldn't mind waiting for a game to be shipped nor paying for shipping. ------------------ understanding requires patience Grok

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- 9/23/2000 11:33:00 PM

moore4807

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quote:

Originally posted by Grok: Intially, I hesitated in posting too much detail, for I had worked out most of the fundamentals, but I wanted to know what others thought of the basic idea. And truly it was Jim's(Moore4807)idea that steered me in this direction. I was thinking of a management group of 10 gamers, who would be nominated and elected by the rest of the gamers involved with the project. These 10 people would be responsible for sifting through all submissions(theme, design, development), clarifying them and making sure that they fit within the agreed upon proposal.

Grok Thanks for your credit, but my original proposal was just getting into the development rooms to see what was cooking. Yours is much more refined and thought out. It would be cool AND productive I think to start a live chatroom going weekly. I for one am interested in the committee idea for a game, and even then if Matrix can handle it, sub-committees to do the various things you talked about ( Concept, Design, Coding, Production, Marketing, etc.) I would recommend someone from Matrix be the moderators so they can keep text logs of the chats (for business purposes) and to resolve the disputes that will no doubt arise. It sounds like a great idea and one that has'nt been attempted before to my knowledge. (" If your going to do it, shoot for the moon" ) Anyway if we are serious about this then I recommend this gets moved to it's own thread as soon as possible so more people can get onboard. PS Grok I'd really be interested to exchange ideas on this, you really DO have a good idea going, Remember crude always has to be refined, whether its oil or ideas or action! Jim

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- 9/24/2000 2:48:00 AM

Marc Hameleers

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Well, i am game as well.....although I still think the whole thing needs more refining, to prevent it ending up as a monstrosity, it is something that might work. Well, Matrix guys, do you think it is a good idea? and if so will we get a special room to continue the discussion? There should definetly be a programmer in this from day one as well, as we will off course demand the impossible from a programmer

Marc

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- 9/24/2000 4:56:00 AM

Grok

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Hi Jim... My intial motivation for proposing the idea was to help the guys at Matrix overcome the slight set back brought on by the trouble with WON. Incidently, I hold no ill will towards Talon Soft or the people who work there. My main contention with Talon Soft is the poor quality of games that have been released recently. I do question there ethics and methods in regards as to how suddenly, they wish to gain re-entry back into wargaming. And their re-aquisition of WON and its designer does make me wonder if it isn't more along the lines of professional jealousy. However, I digress... My suggestion is just one idea, which could help Matrix Games finanically. As much as you or I may like it, it need not be "the" idea or at least the only one. I had been hoping more people would post to this topic with their ideas or at least their comments on the previously posted ones. Five people have posted to this topic, with one from Matrix expressing interest. Sure...I'd like to develope and implement what I suggested and I wouldn't mind if others took the lead. But it really needs to be a group effort for it to succeed and whatever it takes to insure the survival of quality games and indirectly wargaming, I'm all for. IMO the guys at Matrix Games have proved without a doubt that they feel the same. And thats why I wish to do what I can. moore4038:"It would be cool AND productive I think to start a live chatroom going weekly." I once proposed an IRC chat room, exclusively dealing with Matrix games and related topics. That was prior to Game Net, but a chat client that allowed file sending would be very convienent. moore4038:"PS Grok I'd really be interested to exchange ideas on this, you really DO have a good idea going, Remember crude always has to be refined, whether its oil or ideas or action!" I'd be more than willing to trade ideas with you and develope what we can, but we do need to garner more support and involvement. Maybe giving this discussion its own thread would help. "If it seems hard, it isn't! The hard part is that which seems impossible" Gene

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- 9/24/2000 5:08:00 AM

Grok

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quote:

Originally posted by Marc Hameleers: Well, i am game as well.....although I still think the whole thing needs more refining, to prevent it ending up as a monstrosity, it is something that might work.Marc

I share your concerns Marc, but as you, Joe and Jim have stated, proper planning and refinement would help prevent that from happening. So got any ideas on planning and refining it further?

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Hameleers: There should definetly be a programmer in this from day one as well, as we will off course demand the impossible from a programmer Marc

I agree, however before the programmer gets directly involved, shouldn't the basic decisions of design and developement be agreed upon first and then submitted to the programmer? "If you go first...I'll be the first one to go second. I promise!" Gene

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Post #: 17

- 9/24/2000 6:25:00 AM

Holger Wilcks

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quote:

We at Matrix are in this for the long haul, as we believe in the wargaming community as a great market to support. The guys here at Matrix are all dyed-in-the-wool long time wargamers who have set out on a mission. We intend to run this company and design and produce war games and provide additional wargaming support of a caliber we have always expected and rarely received. [/B]

As a recent refugee from Talonsoft I'm a 100 per cent with you guys. You might actually want to post this message to the unofficial Operational Art of War forum that's taken refugee on your site. Believe me: a lot of those guys are the kind of hardcore gamers, that wouldn't mind paying for a yearly subscribtion of a club. I got one concern though: please don't forget us unfortunate Europeans :-) I don't know whether you got an European distributor or not, but you should definitely have one. Lots of wargamers live in Europe (hey, we had all the wars), and importing a game from the US is so expensive it might make your head explode - I actually paid 100 US dollars for TOAW II. The horror. The horror :-) Regards, Holger Copenhagen, Denmark

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- 9/24/2000 8:10:00 AM

moore4807

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quote:

Originally posted by Grok: I agree, however before the programmer gets directly involved, shouldn't the basic decisions of design and developement be agreed upon first and then submitted to the programmer?

To Mark Gene and anyone interested in this topic; I took the liberty of e-mailing Joe Osborne about this, of course he was quick with a response- There is interest at Matrix! Also Joe said something that really warmed the cockles of my battle-hardened heart. Matrix Games is a team oriented, team first concept. Thats a big plus in any project- no big EGO's to rule the charts... Yes there's gotta be a boss, however a team leader is so much more successful than a boss... Anyway Matrix folks are going to be in touch with interested parties either by email or boards, so keep it going. It only proves these guys are the real deal when it comes to wargaming. Joe Osborne told me about the programmers post on another thread, I missed it completely! Grok- good job heading him over here... Maybe though we should start a new thread with a clear concise heading about what we want to do here, until Matrix gets a chance to go over this and set something up....(pending the approvals-of course!)

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- 9/24/2000 10:37:00 AM

VictorH

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I had posted a message I listed on the message forum at Talonsoft at another reply on this forum and GROK asked me to post here. I am a wargamer and a programmer. A wargamer since I was 12, started with Avalon Hills 1914, now 43. A programmer since I was 20. Work as a Project Manager, Network Engineer and Research Technology for Software purchases. I am willing to help anyway I can. [This message has been edited by VictorH (edited September 23, 2000).]

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Post #: 20

- 9/24/2000 1:09:00 PM

Grok

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quote:

Originally posted by moore4807: Grok- good job heading him over here... Maybe though we should start a new thread with a clear concise heading about what we want to do here, until Matrix gets a chance to go over this and set something up....(pending the approvals-of course!)

I was thinking the same thing...You have a good idea about the club thing..why not call the new topic "Club Matrix"? Or if anyone else has something in mind...? Also, got to thinking more about the club and what Marc suggested as well and have come up with a few more "refinements"(more on that at a later time). Gene

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Post #: 21

- 9/24/2000 1:44:00 PM

Grok

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quote:

Originally posted by VictorH: I had posted a message I listed on the message forum at Talonsoft at another reply on this forum and GROK asked me to post here. I am a wargamer and a programmer. A wargamer since I was 12, started with Avalon Hills 1914, now 43. A programmer since I was 20. Work as a Project Manager, Network Engineer and Research Technology for Software purchases. I am willing to help anyway I can. [This message has been edited by VictorH (edited September 23, 2000).]

Thanks for posting here Victor, if we can keep suugestions and comments centralized, it will be much easier for everyone. BTW: Don't stop with just your qualifications, if you have any input please post it, every idea has merit, and it may even help someone else form another idea off it

Gene

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Post #: 22

- 9/25/2000 4:44:00 AM

VictorH

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Here are a few ideas I have for game topics. First, I like the idea of a WWII game in the vein of a game called "High Command", originally published by Colorado Computer Creations, then bought by 360(who went out of business). A second idea is one similar to that posted on another Topic. That is a game on the Colonial Period. I played a boardgame many years ago called Pax Britannica by Victory Games. It would be a great model for a computer wargame, multi- player, diplomacy, naval actions, and land action. The other idea I had again from anothe topic would be a WWI game. I suggest something similar to an old Strategy & Tactics magazine game called WWI. [This message has been edited by VictorH (edited September 24, 2000).] [This message has been edited by VictorH (edited September 24, 2000).]

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Post #: 23

- 9/25/2000 6:39:00 AM

laurent Favre

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One stupid idea: Matrix could sell scenario packs for SPWAW like Novastar did. I don't play SPWAW much ( CM) but I would buy these packs.

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Post #: 24

- 9/25/2000 6:54:00 AM

moore4807

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quote:

Originally posted by laurent Favre: One stupid idea: Matrix could sell scenario packs for SPWAW like Novastar did. I don't play SPWAW much ( CM) but I would buy these packs.

I dont think Matrix could do that with the agreements they have with Mattel/SSI. It would be SWEET to have a deal struck with SSI for add ons, for obvious reasons (call it clawhard, anybody??? ) Just Kiddin!

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Post #: 25

- 9/25/2000 7:03:00 AM

laurent Favre

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quote:

Originally posted by moore4807: I dont think Matrix could do that with the agreements they have with Mattel/SSI. It would be SWEET to have a deal struck with SSI for add ons, for obvious reasons (call it clawhard, anybody??? ) Just Kiddin!

Why? Scenarios are useless without the game so I don't see the reason Mattel/SSI would oppose.And even if royalties should be payed, Matrix would earn money.

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Post #: 26

- 9/25/2000 7:04:00 AM

moore4807

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quote:

Originally posted by Grok: Thanks for posting here Victor, if we can keep suggestions and comments centralized, it will be much easier for everyone. BTW: Don't stop with just your qualifications, if you have any input please post it, every idea has merit, and it may even help someone else form another idea off it Gene

Ditto that here too Victor, Gene and Marc and I seem to be co-ringleaders of this so far and MOST heartily welcome everyone to these postings, The more people in the team, the more the team is able to do. Keeping Matrix Games in the black (cashflow) and making great games and experiences for us wargamers seems to be the primary purpose here. Jump in folks-Waters Warm!

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Post #: 27

- 9/25/2000 7:53:00 AM

Randy

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From: Torrance, Calif. USA
Status: offline

Hi, I had this idea on another post and Victor H suggested I should post this idea at this location. My idea is a strategic/ tactical level military game. It would start out as a strategic level game such as TOAW (corps/divison/brigade level). Once the forces became engaged, there would be the option to conduct the battle at the battalion+ level using the SPW@W format. Just think, you have a corps or a division doing stategic manuever and then at the point of engagement you have the option of going tactical at battalion to squad level as we do in SPW@W. Thanks Semper Fi Randy

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Semper Fi
Randy

The United States Marines: America's 911 Force-The Tip of the Spear

(in reply to moore4807)

Post #: 28

- 9/25/2000 8:09:00 AM

VictorH

Posts: 309
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, U.S.
Status: offline

The Ashton Virus has struck Talonsoft's Message Board. The post I put out there yesterday has mysteriously dissapeared. It's the post I list on the "Matix vs. Talonsoft" topic on this forum. Funny that out of the 6 posts only mine was deleted by the Virus. Looks like Talonsoft is digging it's own grave. Once this sort of behavior gets around the wargame forums on the net, no one will buy Talonsoft games anymore. "I love the smell of Napalm in the morning. It smells like VICTORY"! [This message has been edited by VictorH (edited September 24, 2000).]

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(in reply to moore4807)

Post #: 29

- 9/25/2000 9:44:00 AM

VictorH

Posts: 309
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, U.S.
Status: offline

Laurent, I noticed you had posted to the same site on Talonsoft that I had, before being Purged by the Ashton Virus. I responded back to you. I'm sure Matrix will do well in the future with the help of the folks that post on these forums. There are many that can contribute. Has Matrix considered partnerships with other wargame publishers such as: Forgotten Fronts and Schwerpunkt? [This message has been edited by VictorH (edited September 24, 2000).]

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(in reply to moore4807)

Post #: 30