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Need help - 7/10/2016 9:22:48 PM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		I am playing another game pbem and getting beat as the Germans. I have made it to Narva and stopped with Panzer Group 1. Secondly, in the Center, made it to Minsk and now the Soviets are pushing me back. In the South, almost made it to Kiev and stopped again and no luck with Odessa. Unable to get the siege artillery there due to the rail lines being destroyed and never getting fixed. It's around mid September and I might throw in the towel again. I don't have any troops to cut off the small area in northern Pripyet marshes and the Soviets like to slip troops through this area.

I still find the Soviets quite strong for a Country that had a inexperienced General staff, troops, and totally rocked by the invasion.

Not sure of my next step and all my Group commanders are distrustful and I am getting penalties.

What's the best AAR for me to look at, can't get any farther and need help.
Post #: 1
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 7:16:39 AM   
lancer

 

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		Hi demjansk,

The game has been extensively tested and is at a point where we believe the balance to be about right. Probably not perfect as that's beyond us but we've got an awful lot of metrics data which gives hard information across hundreds of different players and many more games that gives us some confidence that the balance is within the ball park.

PBEM is different however as you are playing a human opponent and there can be, at times, a significant disparity of skill or experience which is outside of our control Not saying that this is the case here but there are a number of game options available that will allow you to shift the balance point closer to where you think it should be.

Cheers,
Cameron

(in reply to demyansk)
Post #: 2
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 9:24:47 AM   
Isokron

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 7/31/2012
Status: offline 		About pbem balancing I would say it currently favours the germans. I just finished a mirror game against Jadgfluger where we both won as the germans (him by rushing moscow in mid july!)

AGN germans will usually win once the finns joins. AGS the soviets have no way of holding the line once the initial regular armies are gone and they are stuck with lots of conscripts. AGC the soviets will usually be able to form a quite formidable wall but you can grind through it at fairly favourable exchange rates if you are patient and will win once 1PG joins from the south.

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 3
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 12:07:50 PM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		Where can I find a specific AAR that will show me an advance by turns or even a video. I am not sure if I am too conservative with my attacks. I usually get stopped after Minsk and Narva. I never get to use the siege artillery outside Odessa since that rail line is always non functional.

(in reply to Isokron)
Post #: 4
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 1:18:00 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Maybe by now there are enough human-to-human games that have been reporting metrics back to be statiscally intereseting. I'll see if i can find some time to run them through the calculator and see how the current balance stands.

Best wishes,
Vic

< Message edited by Vic -- 7/13/2016 1:20:59 PM >

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(in reply to demyansk)
Post #: 5
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 4:54:53 PM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

About pbem balancing I would say it currently favours the germans. I just finished a mirror game against Jadgfluger where we both won as the germans (him by rushing moscow in mid july!) AGN germans will usually win once the finns joins. AGS the soviets have no way of holding the line once the initial regular armies are gone and they are stuck with lots of conscripts. AGC the soviets will usually be able to form a quite formidable wall but you can grind through it at fairly favourable exchange rates if you are patient and will win once 1PG joins from the south.







Hello Isokron.

I say this with good spirit. I am having a hard time believing your report here and would love to play you or your partner as Soviets. Game options would be Past history and plots off. House rule: no use of help buttons.
Let me know and I will set up a challenge/s.



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Walt

(in reply to Isokron)
Post #: 6
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 4:57:28 PM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Great you are taking a look at this Vic.
I can send you some files from recent games which in my opinion provide a fair amount of evidence of the state of the balance in the game if that would be useful.



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Walt

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 7
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 6:27:07 PM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Screenshot of the state of Moscow defenses, August 29, 1941 turn, PBEM game against an experienced German Opponent.





Attachment (1)

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Walt

(in reply to Isokron)
Post #: 8
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 6:44:31 PM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Screenshot of the state of the Leningrad Defenses, Aug 29, 1941 turn.




Attachment (1)

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Walt

(in reply to wadortch)
Post #: 9
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 6:49:56 PM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		And last, Soviet Defense in the South, Aug 29, 1941.




Attachment (1)

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Walt

(in reply to wadortch)
Post #: 10
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 6:55:19 PM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Troop Totals, Aug, 29, 1941 turn.





Attachment (1)

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Walt

(in reply to wadortch)
Post #: 11
RE: Need help - 7/13/2016 10:15:55 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		The PBEM game IMO is very much in favor of the Germans. One of the reasons I stopped playing it. I came to realize the devs were really only interested in making the AI players happy. Which is fine as they make up the bulk of sales. As a PBEM player I just moved on.

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Post #: 12
RE: Need help - 7/14/2016 2:24:11 AM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Hello there Michael.

Well, after I beat Isokron and then Cameron playing the Reds, I hope I will be able to entice you into a return to DC game, you playing the evil Huns.



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Walt

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 13
RE: Need help - 7/14/2016 2:41:55 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I would take me two weeks to get back up to speed. Get my opening down pat again, get a feel for the combat again etc.

Time I don't have ATM. And I would need more enticement. A prize perhaps...

Anyway I would bet on Isokron taking you out. Not because I think he is that much better than you, just because the game favors the Germans so much. If they really know their business.

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Post #: 14
RE: Need help - 7/14/2016 2:59:23 AM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Hello there

Well now if I take Isokron out I will be back and yes, a prize to get you back would be on the table.

If you win that is. And we can agree on that when we got to the contest if it happens.

Walt

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Walt

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 15
RE: Need help - 7/14/2016 3:11:42 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Well I last played with version 1.02. Which was even more pro German than 1.01. I don't see anything in the change log to suggest my opinion of balance would change.

Unless I missed something. I know siege artillery has been nerfed. But has the reinforcement schedule changed or Conscripts suddenly grown a leg?

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Post #: 16
RE: Need help - 7/14/2016 8:23:58 AM   
Isokron

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 7/31/2012
Status: offline 		Wadortch, Im on vacation right now but we can start one in two weeks if you want.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 17
RE: Need help - 7/14/2016 4:55:35 PM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Hello Isokron.
We will be on vacation for about 6 weeks (sailing) but depending on where we cruise this year, I will be able to connect to the server.
I will set up a challenge and send you an email as to the p/w and will watch for you to accept it.
So--options
FOW-on
Historical-off
Mild Winter-off
Easy mode-off
Tougher Soviet-off
Free set up-off
Imperial measurements-off
Decisions limited-off
Past History-off
Plots-off
War Diary-on.

Let me know if these options are good and I will set it up.

Looking forward to our contest!

Walt

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Walt

(in reply to Isokron)
Post #: 18
RE: Need help - 7/16/2016 9:17:58 AM   
Isokron

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 7/31/2012
Status: offline 		Sounds fine to me.

(in reply to wadortch)
Post #: 19
RE: Need help - 7/16/2016 5:34:11 PM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Hello Isokron

Challenge issued, emailed you the password.

Looking forward to our contest!

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Walt

(in reply to Isokron)
Post #: 20
RE: Need help - 7/18/2016 1:18:16 AM   
Ichili

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 6/11/2007
From: United States
Status: offline 		I agree with Isokron and Michel T. The PBEM game is unbalanced in favor of the German player. The main reason, in my opinion, is Stalin's paranoia episodes and its effect on the Russian timetable of reinforcements. Stalin's rage keeps reinforcements from getting to the front, and as a result, many times at the beginning of the campaign, the German counters outnumber the Russian ones.
Besides that, it is possible for the German Panzer Groups to easily skirt Russian defenses by penetrating through the Pripet Marshes, and that is not historically correct.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 21
RE: Need help - 7/18/2016 1:26:46 AM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Hello Ichili

Well, we shall see. Isokron and I have started a game. Not to say that will prove anything definitive about the balance but at least it will show if my opinion about it being balanced in favor of the Soviets is incorrect!

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Walt

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Post #: 22
RE: Need help - 7/19/2016 12:42:59 AM   
lancer

 

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		Hi,

Stalin's paranoid episodes don't actually prevent Soviet Reinforcements from arriving. These are the only Action cards that aren't affected by an episode.

Cheers,
Cameron

(in reply to wadortch)
Post #: 23
RE: Need help - 7/19/2016 4:40:32 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Here is run down of the human-vs-human games registered into the metrics database.

http://www.vrdesigns.net/img/humanvshuman.jpg

It seems to me like the results are relatively balanced and there about as many good Soviet as good German runs.

Keep in mind that the average bar (thick line) can be betraying since I have noted a tendency for games going bad for the Germans to not be continued for to many rounds.

Hope this graph helps to shine a bit of light on the discussion.

Best wishes,
Vic

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(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 24
RE: Need help - 7/19/2016 8:35:56 PM   
Philippeatbay


Posts: 855
Joined: 12/3/2014
Status: offline 		Not sure how to interpret that graph. It would be a little clearer if it explicitly said that it was some kind of victory tally.

What do the x- and y- axes represent ?

The vertical axis is probably victory points and the horizonal axis is probably time or number of turns, but that's just a guess.

And is there a key somewhere for what the different colored lines represent (other than the scenario number, which is confusing because there is only one scenario in the game)?

I would assume that the thick red line refers to something like average Soviet wins and the greenish line refers to average German wins, but the key in the lower left-hand corner doesn't seem to indicate that. (And what's the short orange-yellow line)?

Apart from that, metrics trumps anecdotal every time.

If this graph shows what I think it shows, the Germans don't have significantly more wins than the Soviets.

The problem with a single player's perspective on this is that there is no way to be sure that the human opponents are evenly matched, except in a solo human v. human. And even then you have far too much insight into what your opponents plans are.

< Message edited by Philippe at bay -- 7/19/2016 8:56:40 PM >

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 25
RE: Need help - 7/19/2016 10:38:19 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Once the German knows his business he should win every time. It is a fact that attacking is an order of magnitude more difficult than defending. So with two beginners the Soviet should win mostly, simply because playing the German is more difficult and outweighs the balance issue. These results will skew the metrics. As skill improves with experience the pendulum will swing toward the attacker in this game due to the imbalance that experienced players have been flagging for months. Eventually the penny will drop. But who knows when.

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Post #: 26
RE: Need help - 7/20/2016 10:48:50 AM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Hi Philippe,

The Y axis is the number of victory points held by the Germans.
The X axis is the round number.

The thick lines are the averages for a specific scenario version. The higher the number the more recent.

Best wishes,
Vic

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Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 27
RE: Need help - 7/20/2016 2:50:50 PM   
Philippeatbay


Posts: 855
Joined: 12/3/2014
Status: offline 		Thanks for that.

Is there a similar metric for the Soviet player in human v. human ?

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 28
RE: Need help - 7/20/2016 4:56:25 PM   
wadortch

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 3/19/2011
From: Darrington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Hi Vic

I suppose I could count the individual lines on the graph but I expect you could answer this one quickly--how many games is the data based on?



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Walt

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 29
RE: Need help - 7/21/2016 1:53:09 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I have to admit I might be changing my mind balance wise. I based my view on 1.02.

1.03 has two key elements that favor the Russian's.

1. Starting fuel reduced.

2. Major change. Free Defensive Posture for Soviet armies depending on Axis advance rates. I have to say I really hate the essence of this rule but it most likely will help the Russians a lot.

So in my mind the jury is out on balance. Walt and Isokrons game may indicate a swing too far in Russia's favor. I last played with 1.02 and it really was a German cakewalk.

I don't know about 1.03

I do know I despise rules like free assists for players who find themselves in trouble. Which is what this free defensive posture rule is.

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Post #: 30
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