[RESOLVED] Noob question about sensors

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[RESOLVED] Noob question about sensors - 7/19/2016 10:12:17 PM

Jakers123

Posts: 32
Joined: 10/16/2015
From: Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline

Hi, the thing I like to do most in CMANO is to have ,,planes vs sam's" scenarios, but I have a problem with EMCON settings or with something else idk, no matter what settings I put, I get pretty bad results from even the best SAM's there are.

For example if I take an old Mig 21, non-modernized and have it fly over modern S-300 versions, it usually takes 4 and sometimes even more than 7 or 8 missiles to hit it and I have no idea why, I mean yeah, there's a chance that that could happen in real life, but probably not, so since I have such bad results with a crappy Mig 21, I shouldn't even mention how bad the results are with F-16's, Grippens, I manage to waste all the missiles without getting a single shot sometimes.

I remember that earlier, when I had different settings (I don't remember which ones) I didn't have any problems and I got far more realistic results, but now I literally fly the Mig 21's just a few km's from the S-300 sites and still nothing. So my question is basically what should be my settings for ,,sides", to make all emcon things active or passive or what? Any other suggestions are also welcome.

< Message edited by emsoy -- 7/30/2016 12:54:17 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Noob question about sensors - 7/19/2016 10:20:21 PM

Rory Noonan

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline

Try changing the WRA settings to fire at a maximum of about 70% of the SAMs max range, you could also increase the amount of rounds fired in a salvo.

This is because the speed and angle of aircraft relative to missiles affects PoH; when the missile has to travel further there is more time for the aircraft to manoeuvre and the midsole has less energy remaining to adjust. OODA also plays a part if I recall correctly, so giving the pilot less time to react to your launch increases the chances of having a shot against a non evading target.

(in reply to Jakers123)

Post #: 2

RE: Noob question about sensors - 7/19/2016 11:20:25 PM

Jakers123

Posts: 32
Joined: 10/16/2015
From: Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline

I've already flown the planes as close to the SAM's as possible, even above them, so I doubt that the range is the main problem, but what about the emcon settings, can someone explain what exactly is the difference between passive and active and how they affect sam's?

< Message edited by Jakers123 -- 7/19/2016 11:23:22 PM >

(in reply to Rory Noonan)

Post #: 3

RE: Noob question about sensors - 7/20/2016 12:43:28 AM

ColonelMolerat

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Joined: 9/23/2015
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On your EMCOM, set 'Radar' to 'Active'. This will turn on your Radar, so that it will detect things from further away. 'Passive' is basically sensors that don't emit anything (so your eyes, or a TV camera, or any other sensor that only receives data). 'Active' sends out a ping to gather information - it's 'noisier', but can get better info from further away.

If you turn your SAM's radar to active, if it's got a radar that has an active mode, it will be better at detecting things - but is more likely to be detected itself.

You have three 'EMCON' settings to play with - the 'Side' EMCON (the default for everything under your control), the 'Mission' EMCON (obeyed by everything assigned to a particular mission) and an individual unit's EMCON (only applies to an individual unit). Setting an individual unit's EMCON will override its Mission EMCON, which will override the Side EMCON.

So you could have the Side EMCON set to passive (so most units won't emit radar), but that individual SAM set to active if it's willing to take that risk to look for planes.

(in reply to Jakers123)

Post #: 4

RE: Noob question about sensors - 7/20/2016 2:37:45 AM

Rory Noonan

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline

Hey Jakers123; welcome to the community and the rabbit hole of CMANO.

ColonelMolerat has done a pretty good job of answering your question above, but if you have any further questions it would help to upload a savegame showing the situation.

There are many, many variables that affect this stuff and it's not practical to describe them all in text. To upload a savegame, you need to put it into a .zip file first.

Another thing you could do to help you understand what is taken into account (although there is a lot more calculation done 'under the hood') is to turn on all of the 'weapon end-game calculations' and other data feeds in the message log. Hope that helps.

(in reply to ColonelMolerat)

Post #: 5

RE: Noob question about sensors - 7/20/2016 3:17:37 AM

thewood1

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Joined: 11/27/2005
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Might want to read through this thread and a few others before getting too far on..

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3607586

(in reply to Rory Noonan)

Post #: 6

RE: Noob question about sensors - 7/20/2016 12:38:35 PM

DWReese

Posts: 1824
Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline

Have you tried playing the game and watching the results from the Scenario Editor? If you have the proper settings for watching the results, then you can "see" if the missiles are "blind" or if they are actually "attacking" the air craft. If the missiles are "blind" then there is an illumination issue. If they are actually attacking, then you can see what the calculations are.

I have a similar issue. Mine was caused by having the scenario teleport the unit, and then later, after many modifications, either moving the unit, or something, and then the unit appears on the map, and fires, but it never hits anything, just as you said. Was the unit teleported at some point?

Finally, what I do if I want to test something is to build a practice scenario out on the flat sand of northern Africa. Put the S-300 unit on one side and give it some kind of distance radar unit, and then put MIG-21 on the other. Have the MIG fly toward the SAM unit. The radar unit will obviously pick up the plane. The SAM unit will obviously fire at the plane, as well. Then watch the calculations. Again, this time teleporting has been removed from the equation, so it has to be an illumination issue. If the missile attacks the unit, then everything is fine, and it's likely your scenario (like mine) that has been altered because of teleporting. If it fires and misses, then look at the calculation numbers. If, as others said, the SAM is firing at max distance, then the success numbers go way down. But, because you mentioned that it flew directly overhead and the SAM still missed it, I would think that it has something to do with teleporting.

In summary, watch it from the Scenario Editor first; if the problem, persists, create a special scenario with just those units and watch it again; then report back. I'll be glad to help you.

Doug

(in reply to Jakers123)

Post #: 7

RE: Noob question about sensors - 7/20/2016 2:38:03 PM

ComDev

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Joined: 5/12/2006
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Game version?

Savegame?

Thanks

_____________________________

Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!

(in reply to DWReese)

Post #: 8

RE: Noob question about sensors - 7/20/2016 3:20:47 PM

ColonelMolerat

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Joined: 9/23/2015
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Also - hover the mouse over the SAM site and look at how high the clouds are - are the planes flying above the clouds?

Or could the planes be flying too fast for the SAMs?

If you open the mission in the scenario editor, you can change sides (Alt+S, I think), so that you're controlling the SAM site. If you then use Shift+F1 to select 'manual fire' and target the aircraft, it will tell you if the SAM site can target the plane (and if not, why not).

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 9

RE: Noob question about sensors - 7/22/2016 1:39:46 PM

Jakers123

Posts: 32
Joined: 10/16/2015
From: Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline

Solved it, apparently I didn't use radars (other than those on the sam itself). I made 2 scenarios, 3 Mig 21's and one S-300PS, in the first scenario I added 4 P-18 radars in various locations and in the other scenario I didn't have any radars.

In the scenario with the radars, it took 4 missiles to shoot the 3 planes and in the no radar scenario it took 6 missiles, the Mig's were at about half the range of the SAM in both cases.

Also one kinda related question, does CMANO model maneuverability or does it just have something generic like ,,class 3 plane" vs ,,class 6 missile" and then just gets a random result depending on probability of hit? I ask because you can have a real life 3.rd generation plane that is more maneuverable than a newer generation plane and I heard that the Mig 21 is pretty maneuverable, so I wonder if that makes any difference.

< Message edited by Jakers123 -- 7/22/2016 1:43:21 PM >

(in reply to ColonelMolerat)

Post #: 10

RE: Noob question about sensors - 7/23/2016 12:19:52 AM

Rory Noonan

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline

Aircraft agility is modelled; turn on weapon end-game calcs and you can see some of the factors modelled in to-hit calcs.

(in reply to Jakers123)

Post #: 11