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So I thought... - 8/3/2016 3:34:07 AM

jolly_pillager

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...putting guys into TRACOM did not increase the skill of the trainees...just moved them through faster?

My Navy trainees are not following that paradigm at all.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/3/2016 3:51:40 AM

rustysi

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Just so you know (if you don't already) you need at least 10 in TRACOM in order for it to work. TBH I believe its not working any longer, but until I have something to back it up I can't take it any further. Right now I've downgraded my patch level to a point where I think it last worked. I thought it would be a simple operation to get to where I wanted to go. Just let the computer play itself. Stop it occasionally, put some pilots into TRACOM and check from there. Problem is every time I put pilots into TRACOM, the computer pulled them out.

So I decided to play the game at the lower patch and its taking longer than I expected to come to a point where I can post 'proof'. Not to mention my own hair pulling with losing all the little goodies that were added over time. Does make me appreciate Michaelms' efforts all the more though. In addition my own experimenting with game play is consuming more time. At least this way I'm learning more about the game and how I like to play. In addition to what will and what will not work, in game play that is.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 8/20/2016 12:24:30 AM >

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RE: So I thought... - 8/3/2016 4:40:52 AM

jolly_pillager

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I can confirm it works...currently have 700 Navy pilots in my TRACOM pool and the guys in the 9 to 12 month cycle have an XP of 84 while the guys in the pool have a 77.

I just remember someone (The Elf?) saying that it wouldn't do that, just think of TRACOM as a place to stash pilots for later.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/3/2016 5:01:17 AM

rustysi

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Its not supposed to raise the level of experience in the training pool, its only supposed to advance some pilots to the next month in the training cycle. So if what you say its doing its doing then its wrong, and you are the only one I've heard say that pilots in the training cycle have an experience that high. In your case I'd say something else is wrong, although I could not even venture a guess as to what.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/3/2016 10:09:35 AM

PaxMondo

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+1

Are you playing a stock scenario or a mod?

I've seen where when I have pulled say 500 pilots from the school that I have gotten one or two that were >70 exp before, BUT the average for all 500 was what the national average was. For the IJ in most scenarios, that is ~35 exp.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/3/2016 10:52:51 PM

rustysi

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If you would post some screen shots that would be helpful, because really I gotta see this with my own eyes. (As bad as they are.

)

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RE: So I thought... - 8/4/2016 1:22:44 AM

jolly_pillager

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Sure...here you go. Note this is a stock scenario (the start 12/8/41 one) latest version of the game:

Pilots

TRACOM

A bunch of fresh pilots added to a group

< Message edited by jolly_pillager -- 8/4/2016 1:24:22 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: So I thought... - 8/4/2016 2:45:39 AM

Lokasenna

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That's....absurd.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/4/2016 3:04:34 AM

PaxMondo

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Assuming these are real shots, and they look it, then as JWE would say, you been bit by the bug.

What I mean is that WitPAE ran into memory problems on your machine and your game got corrupted. Some other program overwrote memory that WitPAE thought it had reserved ...

go back in your saves to where you don't see these exp's and replay your game from there. Be sure that you aren't running other software, try and turn as much off as possible and resume.

Sorry.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/4/2016 3:13:50 AM

jolly_pillager

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Not sure about the bug theory...XP has been steadily improving as I have been putting guys into TRACOM (though it really took off about January '44 when TRACOM reached ~500 men). It has not been 35 since...I don't know, maybe mid '42 or so.

Also note how the Army pilots have lower XP...this is because I was pulling as many men as I could into training units and had the Army pool beat down so there were only men in the 1-3 month pool through early '44 or so when I had to slow down and begin retraining the guys who were already in the Reserve in defense skill (I had been getting the guys to 70 air skill and then graduating them...this did not work out so well...).

In any event this is not a sudden change but something that has been noticeably tracking along with the number of TRACOM slots I have filled and has been going on for 2 to 3 game years.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/4/2016 4:35:03 AM

rustysi

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Holy crap!!!!

That just doesn't look normal or WAD, but there it is.... ????

How on earth did you manage to get ~700 IJN pilots into TRACOM in the first place. Inquiring minds want to know.

I did a game out to Dec'42 and had only ~70-80. Though the fleet had many, many more.

AFAIK its really not intended to work that way, but have no idea as to why your game has. Is this the first time you've noticed this?

< Message edited by rustysi -- 8/4/2016 10:51:10 PM >

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RE: So I thought... - 8/4/2016 11:53:31 AM

Encircled

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Is it possible that because he has so many pilots in TRACOM, thats why he is seeing these figures?

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RE: So I thought... - 8/4/2016 12:10:47 PM

Yakface

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D'oh - being dumb. Didn't spot date

< Message edited by Yakface -- 8/4/2016 12:20:14 PM >

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RE: So I thought... - 8/4/2016 4:56:31 PM

Yakface

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Something very wrong going on........ some of those pilots you just pulled can go straight into Tracom. Now that's a positive feedback system if ever I saw one.

[Edit] Looking at the pictures you posted there are already a number of pilots in Tracom with 0 missions under their belt.

< Message edited by Yakface -- 8/4/2016 4:57:55 PM >

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RE: So I thought... - 8/5/2016 12:52:52 AM

jolly_pillager

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Holy crap!!!! That just doesn't look normal or WAD, but there it is.... ????

How on earth did you manage to get ~700 IJN pilots into TRACOM in the first place. Inquiring minds want to know.

I did a game out to Dec'42 and had only ~70-80. Though the fleet had many, many more.

AFAIK its really not intended to work that way, but have no idea as to why your game has. Is this the first time you've noticed this?

On Day 0 (Dec 8, 1942...remember we chose the scenario that starts on this date) I went through every single air unit on the map and transferred everyone available to TRACOM.

After that I would transfer anyone eligible when I did my monthly pilot checks (on the 1st of every month I check every air unit and bring in new pilots, promote to TRACOM, bring in newbies to training units, etc.).

Additionally I check all my units that are engaged in combat each turn (combat increases XP a lot).

As to why there are 700 some odd Navy guys vs. only a hundred Army that's basically because of the carriers...leaving a fighter unit on a carrier at 30% CAP increases XP quickly...and the Navy pilots on the carriers don't have very far to go to get to 81. Also the new build carriers come in with air groups filled out with a lot of guys above 81, so there's that source too.

As to why I did this, there were two reasons...first I wanted to save HI as much as possible and I figured a guy who makes it through training in 9 months instead of 12 costs 75% of the HI. The second reason is that I wanted a large pool of excellent pilots available in '45 to fly my Shindens and Sams.

So that got me to about 500 total in TRACOM (100 Army and 400 Navy) by the beginning of 1944. At that point I had already noticed that XP for the trainees was going up...this started in mid '42 and was up into the 60's by the beginning of '44.

What really tipped things over was by July '44 or so, the trainees broke 70 XP...at that point some percentage of newly drafted pilots came in at 81 XP and could immediately be cycled back into TRACOM. Even without abusing this (I didn't change how I was pulling new guys into units) I was able to add a whole lot of TRACOM guys in a few months. As Yak noted there are a bunch of guys in TRACOM with zero missions...a bunch are the guys brought in on 12/8/41 but a bunch (more? less? I don't know) are guys who came in in the second half of '44 with an 81 xp.

What prompted me to post was the 84 xp in my 10-12 month guys this December...that's the first time they have broken 80. Last month it was pool at 75 and 10-12 month guys at 71...so a big jump in one month.

Anyways just thought it was neat that my plan to save HI by stashing a bunch of guys in TRACOM also lead to an actual increase in skill of my trainees to the point where the secondary objective of maintaining a pool of good pilots for home defense in '45 seems to be not really needed.

***EDIT***

I am somewhat proud to note that it is 12/4/44 and I have a grand total of three KIA pilots on the list with xp 81 or higher...everyone else either didn't make it to the leader board or got promoted to TRACOM.

< Message edited by jolly_pillager -- 8/5/2016 12:54:31 AM >

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RE: So I thought... - 8/5/2016 1:48:40 AM

PaxMondo

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So, maybe it is a bug. I would take your data and screenshots and post in tech forum. Maybe Michael can look into it ... i've never had that many tracom pilots ... he'll need a save as well as some point.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/5/2016 4:54:17 AM

rustysi

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I get what you're saying, but highly doubt that's WAD. I recommend what Pax says. Are you playing PBEM or AI? If AI finish it out and have fun. I'd still post a save to Michael though.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/5/2016 6:40:43 AM

paradigmblue

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If this is WAD this is potentially game-changing.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/12/2016 2:36:30 PM

Marshall

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Perfectly possible to get that amount of pilots in your TRACOM, i just added the 650th pilot to my TRACOM in my game against admiral Dadman.
I have over 2000 pilots in my reserve as well, my training schedule is ruthless and working like clockwork.

The Question is always how many pilots do you need until the end of the war, i personally calculate 2000 casualties a year for 45 and 46 (5 a day on average)
1944 will be less harsh, with 1250 casualties, due to the fighters available.

PBEM game numbers that is.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/12/2016 11:34:45 PM

rustysi

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quote:

Perfectly possible to get that amount of pilots in your TRACOM, i just added the 650th pilot to my TRACOM

OK, but it still should not be running up the experience numbers as shown. If you would check yours and report back.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/13/2016 9:01:47 AM

Marshall

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Here is my report,
First of all to understand my situation i will explain:
I have a massive training schedule going on, that depletes my replacement pools for the navy pilots, i am already snatching naval pilots from from their class room.
Not a big thing, as the training program delivers them in fine shape after a period of time, with over 2000 fighter pilots in reserve, i feel confident that it will not become an issue.
Current play date is OCT 1943

I did not put my best pilots into TRACOM because of the reasoning that it only speeds up basic training, and i felt that my training program would not need this.
I opted for them to be in elite squadrons, and that worked very well over Burma and Australia, In Burma the RAF is completely shattered, and the US needed to send in squadrons of new fighters to cover the gap.

I had 86 pilots in TRACOM for most of the war time so far.
I moved all of my top pilots to TRACOM about 6 weeks ago in the war, to make a buffer for 1945, when the new generation of wonder weapons will appear.
The new generation of elite pilots is replacing the TRACOM fighters, they all have high numbers, and many sorties on their name, they will become the new TRACOM feed in 6 months.

So i will have to see the effect of having 650 TRACOM pilots the coming 12 months of play i think.
If i can get the same results in experience, i will be a very very happy japanese commander in chief.

So far, TRACOM did not do much for me, with the 86 in it. But i will grow the TRACOM number now, and i will see if i can get to a 1000 in the coming year.
Based on the report of Jolly_Pillager, i am willing to invest heavy in the TRACOM, and i will keep an eye on the developments, but here is the current situation:
I have 2 Squadrons of TRACOM pilots still on duty, they are not in the pool yet. (around 100 pilots), i moved them out of TRACOM yesterday to form 2 new ACE squadrons on the location i expect the D day landings within a months time. so 560 left in TRACOM.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marshall -- 8/13/2016 9:21:44 AM >

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RE: So I thought... - 8/13/2016 2:11:59 PM

Alfred

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This is a bug which michaelm said he would address after patch 3 was released. It seems it may have slipped his mind to get back to it.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2382146&mpage=1&key=instructor&#2387563

The problem stems from going into negative territory.

It really should be taken to the Tech sub-forum.

Alfred

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RE: So I thought... - 8/13/2016 7:30:07 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall

The Question is always how many pilots do you need until the end of the war, i personally calculate 2000 casualties a year for 45 and 46 (5 a day on average)

way low i think even for the allies. Look at some recent AAR's that got late into '45.

IJ pilots losses can be easily 500 in a day due to kami.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/13/2016 11:06:48 PM

rustysi

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Hey, thanks Marshall for the post and explanation.

Alfred, wow thanks for the link. TBH I've had a problem of no TRACOM advancement since I upgraded to 1108r9 and above. I've been seeking a solution by regressing my patch to 1106 Oct 2010, where I believe it last worked for me. Was going to get a save from it and then a later level to post to Mr. M. Maybe the whole thing is related, don't know. Can a thread be moved or does a new one need to be started?

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RE: So I thought... - 8/14/2016 8:31:05 PM

Yaab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall

The Question is always how many pilots do you need until the end of the war, i personally calculate 2000 casualties a year for 45 and 46 (5 a day on average)

way low i think even for the allies. Look at some recent AAR's that got late into '45.

IJ pilots losses can be easily 500 in a day due to kami.

Hundred a day into Tokyo Bay?

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RE: So I thought... - 8/15/2016 12:16:03 PM

Marshall

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Sorry for the confusion, i was referring to fighter pilot losses, not bomber losses.

I do not train my Kamikazes up to veteran, i give them 10 days of naval bombing training and a cup of sake,a hug from the empress, and off they go!
If things get really bad, i grab them from the streets, give them an aviation manual of the plane they will fly, 2 hours of preparation and a of course ... a cup of sake and the best wishes from the emperor
I prefer the Ohka attack over kamikazes, but if the going gets though, the kamikazes come out.

i do not see the use of sending a 70+ exp and 70+ skill naval bomber pilot on a kamikaze mission, i think that is an utter waste of talent.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/15/2016 4:41:48 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Hey, thanks Marshall for the post and explanation.

Alfred, wow thanks for the link. TBH I've had a problem of no TRACOM advancement since I upgraded to 1108r9 and above. I've been seeking a solution by regressing my patch to 1106 Oct 2010, where I believe it last worked for me. Was going to get a save from it and then a later level to post to Mr. M. Maybe the whole thing is related, don't know. Can a thread be moved or does a new one need to be started?

As a forum moderator, wdolson is able to move an entire thread to a new sub-forum.

Alfred

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RE: So I thought... - 8/16/2016 4:01:37 AM

wdolson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Hey, thanks Marshall for the post and explanation.

Alfred, wow thanks for the link. TBH I've had a problem of no TRACOM advancement since I upgraded to 1108r9 and above. I've been seeking a solution by regressing my patch to 1106 Oct 2010, where I believe it last worked for me. Was going to get a save from it and then a later level to post to Mr. M. Maybe the whole thing is related, don't know. Can a thread be moved or does a new one need to be started?

Where would you suggest moving it?

Bill

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RE: So I thought... - 8/16/2016 11:00:28 AM

Sardaukar

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I copy my answer to similar thread on main AE forum..just my 2 euro cents:

My main use of TRACOM is to store elite pilots to use later to form elite squadrons and improve good squadrons to be great squadrons. In TRACOM, your aces are safe (as Allies, you can think them as sent to war bond tour for a while).

For Japan, TRACOM is bit more useful in pilot training, but Allies should never have much problem with trained OK pilots. Things with AUS/NZ/Brit/CW/Chinese pilots might be bit different, though. But USN/USAAF usually never lack trained pilots and Allied player has enough restricted squadrons on West Coast to use for pilot training.

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RE: So I thought... - 8/18/2016 1:11:53 AM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Hey, thanks Marshall for the post and explanation.

Alfred, wow thanks for the link. TBH I've had a problem of no TRACOM advancement since I upgraded to 1108r9 and above. I've been seeking a solution by regressing my patch to 1106 Oct 2010, where I believe it last worked for me. Was going to get a save from it and then a later level to post to Mr. M. Maybe the whole thing is related, don't know. Can a thread be moved or does a new one need to be started?

Where would you suggest moving it?

Bill

I thought it should go to the tech forum for Michealm to look at if he hasn't already. The experience gain shown by jolly_pillager just doesn't appear to be WAD. In my experience with TRACOM I'm having different problems (its not working). Unfortunately at the current time I don't have any saved games to post and show what I'm dealing with, although the two may be related.

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