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RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/4/2016 4:57:28 PM

mussey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

Thanks for a good suggestion.

This is a part of the game that that frustrates me, namely the micromanagement of very mundane actions that could be automated. It would be nice if AC had 'weather' settings where an air squadron can have an option not to fly in stormy weather, or automatically stand down once a certain plane fatigue is reached.

So a question. What is more important for air transport missions, General experience or Trans skill?

Hans, thanks for the clarification. I think it's time to bring the manual back to my nightstand for emergency bedtime reading!

< Message edited by mussey -- 8/4/2016 4:58:33 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/4/2016 4:59:43 PM

Yaab

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No. Transport planes have the lowest durability out of all twin-engine aircraft in the whole game. That is why they die like flies in bad weather, and your experienced fighter pilots will not change that. Actually, try using bombers for supply runs. B-26 Marauder has 40 durability ( 10 points more than DC-2 Coffin) and carries 2 points of supply (they have 4000 capacity). Best Allied early transport for sure.

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Post #: 32

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/4/2016 5:26:25 PM

bobdina

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yes, since using this guide I have very few squadron leaders with high aggression and haven't noticed any change and this is going into 1946 in 2 complete campaigns. Makes choosing squadron leaders much easier instead of always looking for good aggressive leaders. Again this is over 2 complete games of a couple years. I've done 4 complete campaigns 2 with using high aggression leaders only then changed everything after reading that guide and have had no problems. I think ,although for me thats pretty hard ,my ops loses were way down choosing leaders the guide way or I would have discarded it. This is for Mussey sorry about that. And I always train transport to 70 trans no matter if they drop troopers or supply.

< Message edited by bobdina -- 8/4/2016 5:28:39 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/5/2016 12:31:54 AM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

No. Transport planes have the lowest durability out of all twin-engine aircraft in the whole game. That is why they die like flies in bad weather, and your experienced fighter pilots will not change that. Actually, try using bombers for supply runs. B-26 Marauder has 40 durability ( 10 points more than DC-2 Coffin) and carries 2 points of supply (they have 4000 capacity). Best Allied early transport for sure.

Am I right in thinking that cargo planes, like the C-47 for example, were really nothing more than civilian airliners with some modifications to carry out the cargo mission? Meaning that they weren't really 'militarized' in having the armor protection of the purpose built bombers. If so, you can see how they would be so vulnerable to anything that could shoot at them.

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Post #: 34

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/5/2016 12:41:20 AM

rustysi

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More or less, at least early war. Not sure about C-46 or some other later models. Some like the Helen were mods of bombers. I even think the 'Iron Annie' (Ju-52) was an early bomber design.

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Post #: 35

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/6/2016 8:27:27 AM

Shark7

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The JU-52 was a 17 passenger pre-war airliner, but had the benefit of an all metal construction even in its civilian form. It was modified to fill the bomber role as well as cargo transport. Probably one of the better aircraft of the time period, being all metal made it very robust.

I think it is safe to say that in reality, any transport aircraft presents as a large, slow target. Don't use them where enemy fighters have control.

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Post #: 36

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/6/2016 9:05:28 AM

LoBaron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Thread resurrection.

No-one has addressed one thing yet, namely aviation support numbers at the RECEIVING airfield. If you fly 30 transport aircraft laden with supply to a level 6 airfield with just 20 aviation support squads there, will that affect operational losses on the return leg?

EDIT: Actually, I guess there are situations when the receiving airfield has no aviation support at all.

No.

And be careful in what you conclude from this thread, it is full of another set of urban legends.

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Post #: 37

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/8/2016 12:05:33 PM

Yaab

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Just made a short test on Friday.

I damaged Paoshan airfield 100%, put the units there on rest ( so engineers do not fix the airfield) and tried flying supplies from Kunming with 21 DC-2s while there were 10 aviation support squads in Kunming.

Results.

- Paoshan airfield was being fixed anyway. Turn 2:97%, turn 3: 95% etc. So even with the engineers at Rest the airfield was getting repaired.

-there was no on-map message about supplies being delivered during the AIR TRANSPORT phase.

-the DC-2 pilots were accruing missions flown. On turn 3 some had 4 missions flown

-after three turns 15 aircraft were operational,while 6 were being repaired in Kunming

SUMMARY

Test inconclusive. Since I cannot cut-off Paoshan from supply from other cities, I don't know if the aircraft have delivered the supplies or not.

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Post #: 38

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/8/2016 8:11:49 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Just made a short test on Friday.

I damaged Paoshan airfield 100%, put the units there on rest ( so engineers do not fix the airfield) and tried flying supplies from Kunming with 21 DC-2s while there were 10 aviation support squads in Kunming.

Results.

- Paoshan airfield was being fixed anyway. Turn 2:97%, turn 3: 95% etc. So even with the engineers at Rest the airfield was getting repaired.

-there was no on-map message about supplies being delivered during the AIR TRANSPORT phase.

-the DC-2 pilots were accruing missions flown. On turn 3 some had 4 missions flown

-after three turns 15 aircraft were operational,while 6 were being repaired in Kunming

SUMMARY

Test inconclusive. Since I cannot cut-off Paoshan from supply from other cities, I don't know if the aircraft have delivered the supplies or not.

Any unit can repair runways (but engineers are best of course), but the Airfield Service component needs engineers.

Did you observe any increase to delivered supply from the aircraft? (don't know how it can be separated from normal supply unless the AF usually gets supply once or twice a week and you did the test in between deliveries.)

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Post #: 39

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/8/2016 8:22:41 PM

geofflambert

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George Peppard had 100% ops losses in "The Blue Max".

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Post #: 40

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/8/2016 8:29:18 PM

Yaab

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BBFanboy, sorry, I cannot isolate the supply coming from the other cities.

It begs for a sandbox test in the editor with two isolated
islands - A with 100% damaged airfield and B with aircraft and supply. Maybe someone can help?

quote:

Any unit can repair runways (but engineers are best of course), but the Airfield Service component needs engineers.

Did you observe any increase to delivered supply from the aircraft? (don't know how it can be separated from normal supply unless the AF usually gets supply once or twice a week and you did the test in between deliveries.)

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Post #: 41

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/9/2016 6:30:53 AM

Barb

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I think if the "destination" airfield is too damaged to receive landing planes, they would simply perform an air drop - and its effectiveness should be some function of TRAN skill.

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Post #: 42

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/9/2016 6:50:17 AM

Yaab

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There was no message during the AIR TRANSPORT PHASE about the supplies having been dropped. Nothing.

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Post #: 43

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/9/2016 7:46:15 AM

LoBaron

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1) Aviation support at destination base has no impact on TR ops. Think about it: How could it - except with massive abstraction? The repair phase is only after the mission is complete. Why should A/S at a base affect planes on a different base?
2) Runway damage on destination base will affect TR op losses (and as a result #of supplies/devices delivered).
3) TR planes flying to bases sufficiently damaged to close the runway should drop their supplies instead of 'landing' (Michael fixed a bug where TR planes landing on such bases resulted in massive op losses, I am not sure if they are actually dropping instead - never tested this).

In general I am pretty sure there is some small line of code increasing chances of op losses based on destination base rwy damage. Note that the transport missions are similar point2point calculations as bombing missions or paradrops. The TR do not actually land at the destination base, it is just an abstraction by the code.

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Post #: 44

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/9/2016 3:57:20 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

1) Aviation support at destination base has no impact on TR ops. Think about it: How could it - except with massive abstraction? The repair phase is only after the mission is complete. Why should A/S at a base affect planes on a different base?
2) Runway damage on destination base will affect TR op losses (and as a result #of supplies/devices delivered).
3) TR planes flying to bases sufficiently damaged to close the runway should drop their supplies instead of 'landing' (Michael fixed a bug where TR planes landing on such bases resulted in massive op losses, I am not sure if they are actually dropping instead - never tested this).

In general I am pretty sure there is some small line of code increasing chances of op losses based on destination base rwy damage. Note that the transport missions are similar point2point calculations as bombing missions or paradrops. The TR do not actually land at the destination base, it is just an abstraction by the code.

I cannot be sure, but I suspect that flying to another base that has an airfield makes the AI decide it is NOT a paradrop mission up front and then when the aircraft fly with normal load and find the airfield too damaged to land, they turn around and go back without delivering anything.
Delivering where no airfield exists sets up the paradrop mission which might reduce the supply carried because of the parachute equipment, but at least something gets delivered.

BTW, I drop parachute loads at 1000' to increase accuracy. Haven't seen anything that says it increases chances of being shot down.

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Post #: 45

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/10/2016 5:12:08 AM

Yaab

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So instead of trying to intercept transports over the destination with LRCAP or leaking CAP, it is enough to keep the airfield damage at 100% and no supplies will get through, right?

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Post #: 46

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/10/2016 6:34:08 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

So instead of trying to intercept transports over the destination with LRCAP or leaking CAP, it is enough to keep the airfield damage at 100% and no supplies will get through, right?

I fall back on the first four words of that last post I made!

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Post #: 47

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/11/2016 9:07:57 PM

Yaab

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Heheh, just tested the whole thing.

Added airfield level 1 to a Japanese island of Ulleungdo (location 320). 100% airfield runway and 100% service runway damage. Ordered 36 transport aircraft from Mukden to fly supplies to tho island. All aircraft at 2300 capacity = 1 supply point.

Ulleungdo supply:

Turn 1: 170
Turn 2: 205

Aircraft operational:31

Missions flown: 34 pilots flew 1 mission, one pilot flew 2 missions, one pilot flew 0 missions.

No message during AIR TRANSPORT PHASE about supplies being flown or dropped.

Bug, feature?

Isolated Ulleungdo bumps its supply from 170 to 205 thanks to brave pilots from Mukden. No airfield, no problem!

< Message edited by Yaab -- 8/11/2016 9:14:22 PM >

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Post #: 48

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/11/2016 9:31:48 PM

HansBolter

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I don't understand why you would assume that a trashed airfield would preclude air supply.

Wouldn't the lack of an operational airfield on the receiving end simply change the mission to an airdropping of supply instead of an air transport of supply?

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Post #: 49

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/11/2016 9:32:25 PM

Shark7

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Well at least it seems that they are dropping supplies, even if no one informs you about it.

That also leads me to wonder...I remember in the vanilla WiTP (or was it PacWar), you would see the transports delivering supplies at the end of each turn, so you knew they were being delivered. I don't see that anymore. Granted I have my setting so that most of the phases are at 0.0 or 0.5 sec delay, so it could be my settings or just be going through it so fast I can't see it.

So as you point out, is the no message thing working as intended, a bug, or a possibly a result of our settings?

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RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/11/2016 9:42:19 PM

Yaab

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ad HansBolter.

How would I know, since there is no message about supplies being dropped?

Also, 35 supply increase means every aircraft dropped the supplies successfully. Aren't they supposed to lose some of the stuff on the drop?

< Message edited by Yaab -- 8/11/2016 9:43:40 PM >

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Post #: 51

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/12/2016 7:49:04 PM

LoBaron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
Aren't they supposed to lose some of the stuff on the drop?

No. The only difference is the range. Noone bothers to read the manual anymore.

7.2.4.3 DROPPING SUPPLY
Supply can be dropped to a friendly unit not in a base up to the Normal range of the carrying
aircraft.
7.2.4.4 AIR TRANSPORTING SUPPLY BETWEEN BASES
Supply can be moved between friendly bases up to half (50%) the Maximum range of the
carrying aircraft.

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Post #: 52

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/12/2016 10:29:40 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Well at least it seems that they are dropping supplies, even if no one informs you about it.

That also leads me to wonder...I remember in the vanilla WiTP (or was it PacWar), you would see the transports delivering supplies at the end of each turn, so you knew they were being delivered. I don't see that anymore. Granted I have my setting so that most of the phases are at 0.0 or 0.5 sec delay, so it could be my settings or just be going through it so fast I can't see it.

So as you point out, is the no message thing working as intended, a bug, or a possibly a result of our settings?

Something HAS changed.

I used to see a text flash message for each and every air transport mission.

Recently I noticed that I am now only seeing one flash message per base, no matter how many squadrons at that base are flying the AT mission.

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Post #: 53

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/12/2016 10:56:38 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Well at least it seems that they are dropping supplies, even if no one informs you about it.

That also leads me to wonder...I remember in the vanilla WiTP (or was it PacWar), you would see the transports delivering supplies at the end of each turn, so you knew they were being delivered. I don't see that anymore. Granted I have my setting so that most of the phases are at 0.0 or 0.5 sec delay, so it could be my settings or just be going through it so fast I can't see it.

So as you point out, is the no message thing working as intended, a bug, or a possibly a result of our settings?

Something HAS changed.

I used to see a text flash message for each and every air transport mission.

Recently I noticed that I am now only seeing one flash message per base, no matter how many squadrons at that base are flying the AT mission.

It is easy to miss the message - it flashes by briefly at the very end of the Afternoon Air Phase. It is not a combat so it will not show up under the delay setting for air combat, just the one for General Messages, I have mine set for .5 seconds and I often hit [ESC] to skip by all the recon messages so the air transport message scoots right by too.

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Post #: 54

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/13/2016 6:04:02 AM

Yaab

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I have had zero messages in both tests during AIR TRANSPORT PHASE.

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Post #: 55

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/13/2016 7:13:05 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I have had zero messages in both tests during AIR TRANSPORT PHASE.

That is strange. I still see them but I am playing a stock GC. And I did not upgrade to Win 10. Who knows what Microsoft is doing with your transports!

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Post #: 56

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/13/2016 8:02:49 AM

Yaab

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I am on Win XP, scen 100( Andy updated scenario 1).

I do get those messages when I fly to undamaged airfields.

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Post #: 57

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/13/2016 8:29:39 AM

LoBaron

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After all those years, why are you hunting for messges in the replay? Simply check the op report file.

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RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/13/2016 10:01:37 AM

Yaab

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LoBaron, you are golden!

OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Dec 08, 41

Troops from 51st Nav Gd lost to accident during amphibious unloading from TF 15
Coastwatcher sighting: 10 Allied ships at 77,61 near Hong Kong , Speed unknown
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
Japanese forces CAPTURE Makin !!!
2nd Hikotai IMAF arrives at Changchun

----

Still don't know if they landed to deliver the supplies or just dropped them.

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Post #: 59

RE: Air Transport Operational Losses - 8/13/2016 2:28:33 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

LoBaron, you are golden!

OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Dec 08, 41

Troops from 51st Nav Gd lost to accident during amphibious unloading from TF 15
Coastwatcher sighting: 10 Allied ships at 77,61 near Hong Kong , Speed unknown
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
Japanese forces CAPTURE Makin !!!
2nd Hikotai IMAF arrives at Changchun

----

Still don't know if they landed to deliver the supplies or just dropped them.

If they landed at a field that is 100% damaged your op losses should be very high. But then again the game doesn't always model what we think should happen ....
What about the figures for the amount that should have been carried by the aircraft that flew vs. the amount that the base received (I presume you will also have to add in the base daily use since that would be deducted from the inventory at the end of the turn)?

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RE: Air Transport Operational Losses