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Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most Overhyped Battle in History

 
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Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most Over... - 8/15/2016 2:34:44 AM   
DicedT

 

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 3:57:41 AM   
operating


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Status: offline 		That's one battle that I'd like to replay, but finding a game that would be relatively easy to manage and get into has alluded me. Seen a couple of older titles for this battle, but a bit leery of using them on a newer machine. A what if: If Manstein did what he wanted to do and ignored Hitler's recommendations..

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 1:25:49 PM   
wings7


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Status: offline 		It was a turning point for the Soviets and the beginning of the end for the Germans on the Eastern Front...hardly over-hyped!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 3:05:10 PM   
Poopyhead

 

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Status: offline 		The Russians had a spy stationed in Japan, code-named Lucy, that gave them almost all of the intel on the attack. Stalin knew what was coming and prepared for it. The attack never had a chance. Guderian told Hitler, "The world doesn't care if you take Kursk."

As for the Tigers that Caidin mentioned in his book (the one in the pic), these weren't really the Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger that is famous. The designer of this tank destroyer lost out to the Tiger Hitler chose. But he had 96 chassis built before the competing design won. So he mounted the 88 on it with no turret or machine guns and rushed them off to the battle. These actually did fairly well and destroyed 500 Russian tanks for the loss of a couple dozen. After the battle, the chassis were then rebuilt with a hull machine gun and became known as the Elefant.

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 4:05:36 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

It was a turning point for the Soviets and the beginning of the end for the Germans on the Eastern Front...hardly over-hyped!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk


The single turning point on the eastern front was the failed operation Barbarossa (neither Leningrad, Voronesh, Moscow nor Rostov taken).
1943 Kursk offensive was meaningless long term. Even when we assume a german major victory, so what? 2 month later the soviets have replaced everything and the steamroller is back.
Barbarossa late 1941 was the single turning point, not Stalingrad or Kursk. In 1943 there was no possibility to force USSR to surrender.

Similar to the people who claim El Alamein 1942 to be decisive. Sure, because germany could have supplied a big offensive towards suez in 1943 after a successful El Alamein...

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 4:08:03 PM   
wings7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

The Russians had a spy stationed in Japan, code-named Lucy, that gave them almost all of the intel on the attack. Stalin knew what was coming and prepared for it. The attack never had a chance. Guderian told Hitler, "The world doesn't care if you take Kursk."



More info on Lucy spy ring...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_spy_ring


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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 4:12:02 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Status: offline 		Here is the Link to the Android Kursk Game from Joni Nuutinen, if you are interesteded in mobile games too.
No Gary Grigsby like simulation but entertaining game:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cloudworth.kursk_demo

Btw: The tank Popyhead refers too (Ferdinand/Elefant) was designed by Ferdinand Porsche, the excellent engineer who developed the famous Porsche cars after WW2.

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 4:56:25 PM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
No Gary Grigsby like simulation but entertaining game:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cloudworth.kursk_demo

Grigsby already covered Kursk...





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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 5:18:21 PM   
Gilmer


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Status: offline 		Definitely some interesting information provided here, in the story and in our own forum comments. I'm pretty interested since I'm playing War in the East right now as the Soviets and it is the middle of summer 1942.

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 5:42:10 PM   
MrsWargamer


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Status: offline 		Kursk was big big big and guys always love big tanks in big battles to a point.

There have been other big battles with a lot of armour, but usually something makes the battle not make the cut. The last offensives between Russia and Japan seem under mentioned.

Some of the desert battles were big, but the armour wasn't the sexy late war armour.

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 5:56:00 PM   
operating


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quote:

ORIGINAL: E


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
No Gary Grigsby like simulation but entertaining game:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cloudworth.kursk_demo

Grigsby already covered Kursk...





Yeah, A "1984" release....!

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 7:34:12 PM   
Mobius


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Status: offline 		So far I have both the Prokhorovka book

and Ponyrii book


Highwater marks of the southern and northern pincers.

The time right before Stalingrad was probably the last chance the Germans had on winning the war. But moving panzer divisions around like chess pieces and getting mired down was a loser.




< Message edited by Mobius -- 8/15/2016 7:39:31 PM >

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 7:35:46 PM   
Ostwindflak


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Status: offline 		What I always found more interesting than the battle at Kursk was the tank battle that raged at Prokhorovka 87 kilometers away from Kursk.

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 9:13:26 PM   
MrsWargamer


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Status: offline 		I have a modest sized board game of the Prochorovka battle actually. I've had it since the 80s so it likely has some bias in the details.

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/15/2016 9:13:36 PM   
wings7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

What I always found more interesting than the battle at Kursk was the tank battle that raged at Prokhorovka 87 kilometers away from Kursk.


Yes indeed...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Prokhorovka

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 12:19:25 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Status: offline 		I've always wondered if that idiot Hitler cancelled Kursk. But it would have probably just extended the bloodshed another year, if that.

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 12:38:42 AM   
wings7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

I have a modest sized board game of the Prochorovka battle actually. I've had it since the 80s so it likely has some bias in the details.


Nice, do you have any photos...box, counters, etc.?

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 5:16:19 AM   
IntrepidMan


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quote:

I've always wondered if that idiot Hitler cancelled Kursk. But it would have probably just extended the bloodshed another year, if that.


Hitler was on meth the last 8 years of his life so he wasnt very rational. Withdrawing the 2nd SS Panzer Korps at the height of the battle to the outrage of Manstein was instrumental in their defeat. Guderians plan to play defense throughout '43 might have extended the war by 2-3 years.

< Message edited by IntrepidMan -- 8/16/2016 5:17:21 AM >

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 11:47:54 AM   
MrsWargamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

I have a modest sized board game of the Prochorovka battle actually. I've had it since the 80s so it likely has some bias in the details.


Nice, do you have any photos...box, counters, etc.?


That can be arranged.


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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 2:26:05 PM   
Saint Ruth


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Status: offline 		Interesting read (especially those tank loss statistics), but I'm not sure about this:
"Germany had a choice: wait to be hammered by another offensive from the Russian steamroller, or take the initiative by launching its own offensive."
There was a third choice (Manstein's preferred option) which was to remove the bulge in the front by withdrawing German units from the North and South of the bulge to straighten the front, and then let the Russians attack and try and recreate his "backhand blow" of the Third Battle of Kharkov on a grand scale (i.e. withdraw in the face of the Russian attack and then counterattack and encircle the attackers).
I'm not sure it's "overhyped" either. It was the last opportunity the Germans had to gain the initiative on the Eastern Front.

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 2:44:31 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Status: offline 		The defender usually is in the advantage because he is entrenched, has shorter supply lines etc. Therefore any attack is costly in the beginning. In WW2, unlike WW1, the exploitation units can then encircle/disrupt deep in the enemy rear if they have the chance. This strategy can be countered by having strong mobile reserves (like the Panzerdivisionen). When used right, the russians break through somewhere, but the exploitation spearheads get hit or even encircled by German reserves (like Charkov 1942 and 1943) when they have outrun their supply and support. On this way, the frontline moves WW1 like because no mobile warfare-->soviets have to slowly grind their way west, always against fortifications in favourable area. This preserves the defenders strength while the attacker has to pay a high price in ammunition and men. This was as far as i know Guderians proposal.
Had the germans known that the soviets know about Zitadelle, they should have delayed the attack until the soviets do not take the bite anymore and then cancel it to let them wait for an onslaught that never happens so they waste effort in a senseless defence.

Kursk was for sure important but definitely no turning point because even after a victory germans could not have kept the initiative for long.

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 3:59:34 PM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
I have a modest sized board game of the Prochorovka battle actually. I've had it since the 80s so it likely has some bias in the details.

Nice, do you have any photos...box, counters, etc.?

That can be arranged.

That wouldn't be this one, would it?





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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 5:31:08 PM   
wings7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
I have a modest sized board game of the Prochorovka battle actually. I've had it since the 80s so it likely has some bias in the details.

Nice, do you have any photos...box, counters, etc.?

That can be arranged.

That wouldn't be this one, would it?






I wanted to see the pictures of the board game that she mentioned...

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 5:36:37 PM   
MrsWargamer


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Status: offline 		Yes, I have some pictures I took, wouldn't have bothered if I had seen someone beat me to it effectively :)

That's a digital image above, but the physical media is about the same.

I'll pass on the fuss of uploading as my cell phone images suck (I was rushed).

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 5:54:17 PM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
That's a digital image above, but the physical media is about the same.

I would hope so (the counters and map are all scanned from the original for a Vassal module I did many moons ago).


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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 6:20:49 PM   
wings7


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Status: offline 		OK, thank you both for sharing!

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/16/2016 10:11:10 PM   
Ironclad

 

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Status: offline 		Given Germany's strategic situation in 1943 a limited offensive in the east made sense to weaken the Red army before events in the west forced major land and air redeployments away from the Ost front. Limited oil stocks and troop numbers also meant that it would have to be fought on a narrow front.

The problem at Kursk was the lack of surprise and too few German infantry - not insufficient armour or the initial air power gathered by the Luftwaffe, combined with the sheer depth of Soviet defences there.

This was one operation where Hitler deserves much less blame than his generals. In the light of the Stalingrad disaster he left most of the planning and operational details for Citadel to his commanders. Whilst he favoured an offensive as did most of his senior officers, he wasn't that confident telling Guderian that the thought of the operation turned his stomach. A May attack would have caught the Russians much less prepared but the Germans were equally unprepared given the short period which had elapsed since the spring thaw had brought the German counter operations after Stalingrad to a halt and the heavy losses that required replacing.

< Message edited by Ironclad -- 8/16/2016 10:13:11 PM >

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RE: Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright: Why Kursk is the Most ... - 8/19/2016 10:22:54 AM   
VPaulus

 

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