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- 4/15/2003 11:14:11 PM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Veldor, what is the software this remark refers to?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, I was refering to VASL, which I personally have had at least 3 years and it seems more like 4 or 5 possibly. In either case its been around a long while.

[QUOTE][B]
As for Matrix supporting a commercial ASL game, well I can't see that being realistic.
I mean with Steel Panthers and soon Combat Leader, it would be odd for us to ask them to produce a computerised version of a board game that some would say would be so close to what those two games are, as to be duplication of effort, or even contrary to producing Combat Leader.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Agreed and then some. Already stated the same. Though whether Combat Leader unanimously pleases everyone out there remains to be seen. It is unlikely one software product could ever be to the likeing of everyone. Especially the wargamer crowd. All the more reason why they split the game into two different games. You can't please everyone and its a fools errand to try.

[QUOTE][B]MMP has been for 2002 and 2003 quite swamped with hassle of getting ASL the real thing back into print.
Taking and realising a better VASLesque design much just currently be a bridge to far at this time. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes. Fortuneately though they have nothing to do much with VASL at the moment. Nor is it likely if they did support another effort, that much effort on their part would be needed for that either.

Somehow we are just spinning in circles now. Whether a better full pc version of ASL ever gets made or not my point is there is no need AT ALL for the other JAVA based version that is being done (in what I am assuming is an MMP unsupported effort, though really irrelevant to my opinion.). If another ASL effort is done, Ever, then it should be something far better than VASL, near to if not commercial quality, and fully supported by MMP.

Otherwise lets all just continue with VASL and improve it as a community effort.

Thats it, Thats all, You either agree or disagree with that?

_____________________________

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 31

- 4/15/2003 11:37:09 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

Ok you seem conversant on software Veldor, what do you know of and what are your opinions on the software used for these games?

http://www.warplanner.com/
I am not very fluent in the software used to run Advanced Third Reich on the computer as yet.

http://www.hpssims.com/pages/products/adc2/ADC2-Main.html
This is also a known multi board game option. It's a retail item, and it has some titles I am very interested in.

http://www.hexwar.com/
This requires a monthly fee, not sure there is any brains in that though.

http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/
This is something similar in purpose as well to VASL.

I have seen these sites, but only this year. I am unaware of what it is that makes them tic though. So my interest is in your ability to comment on them at the software level.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 32

- 4/16/2003 6:09:56 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline

Hi,

I was not going to enter this yet but as the author of JASL I feel it has degraded enough.

First of all: to Les & Cheeks: thank you seing the pros and cons of computerized ASL. I appreciate it.

Veldor,

I don't know who you are, but I need to clear up just some of your missunderstandings on this topic.

0) I am definitely not going to steal anything from MMP, on the contrary I am spending (and have been spending since 1997) a huge amount of my sparetime designing the Finnish ASL-module together with Tuomo Lukkari. Over the years I have exchanged 1200+ emails with him, other designers and MMP on the topic. I also submitted and worked on SASL rules for Red Barricades (which did not turn into something unfortunately, but that is life).

Each release of JASL have been announced on the ASL Mailinglist run by MMP, and I am fully aware of while that doesn't contribute any form of agreement with MMP or Hasbro or anyone else on the matter, I have had feeling that it's existance was tolerated. In any way it has not been hidden, and I cannot believe that it has caused any loss of profit to MMP.

On the contrary I have received only positive emails with people stating their support and offers of helping out. These comments comes from people that are game shop owners, wargame designers, ASL players and others in the know. Your opinions here are the first negative ones since I started on JASL.

Anyway, in the meantime I have contacted MMP to clarify what their position on this is. If it is their wish I will remove JASL immediately.

1) JASL competes with VASL

[QUOTE]... another competing JAVA app is all the more worse for VASL[/QUOTE]

VASL enables a HUMAN player to play another HUMAN player either directly or via PBEM to play ASL.

JASL enables a HUMAN player to play a COMPUTER player in ASL.

I hope that was clear for you.

Just for the record: I have been an avid fan of VASL since its start, when I contributed a non-trivial amount of money, and since then have provided hints / suggestions / improvements and more to Rodney on this. If you have really used VASL you may have seen my name in the User Guide Appendice (it is online).

We (I and Rodney) have discussed the possibility of a future connection between JASL and VASL (I would like JASL to stand on its own first) and I have made it clear that I have *no* plans to copy the functionality of VASL in JASL. VASL is a great tool which has enabled me to play a great number of enjoyable and memorable games over the years.

2) Java, the language

[QUOTE]Java is awful. It's not even worth an argument.[/QUOTE]

How do you know? If you want to learn I can point out some good tutorials for you.

[QUOTE]I'll win it just by saying not a single commercial game product uses Java.[/QUOTE]

Ah, that will surprise a whole lot of java programmers. In addition to what you find on google (try "java game market"), here is one, IL-2, a flightsim you might have heard of:

http://www.javalobby.org/threadMode3.jsp?forum=61&thread=2931&message=10211

Their support page is at

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/overview.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_ts

And some other resources:

http://www.javagaming.org/cgi-bin/JGOForums/YaBB.cgi

http://www.resequencer.com/index.html

http://gamejug.org/

Not bad for an "awful" language IMO.

3) Computer ASL or not

[QUOTE]Honestly put, after finishing Up Front if that worked out, I very much would have like to do a professional ASL app myself. [/QUOTE]

and

[QUOTE]I would like to see developed (by myself, MMP, or ANYONE) a FULL PC adaptation of ASL.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps this is your real problem with JASL? That the "ANYONE" is not you ... otherwise "ANYONE" is doing it right now.

[QUOTE]The main problem "diehards" have is a total boardgame biased view which makes certain interface issues very difficult. Its also doubtful the AI can ever be very good and of course graphics performance and game aids etc with Java are not what they should be. etc. etc.[/QUOTE]

BTW: ASL "diehards" have stated that what they like about JASL is that it really *is* like ASL and not some arcade-style quickie that skips the "difficult" interface issues while adding "realistic" sound effects. What kind of graphics performance problems do you expect to have with an ASL style computer game, I mean it is a bit different from doom and quake et al.

[QUOTE]Finding opponents for ASL is hard. Thats why there needs to be an "OFFICIAL" computer ASL tool, game or whatever not half a dozen shotty amateur products[/QUOTE]

I don't know anyone else that feels that JASL is "shotty" but perhaps you are right. Anyway it certainly doesn't apply to Rodney's VASL. I think you owe him an apology.

yours,
Lars

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 33

- 4/16/2003 6:22:03 AM

Cheeks

Posts: 157
Joined: 8/31/2002
From: Ohio Valley
Status: offline

NOW HEAR THIS:

Beer for Lars! :)

Milk for Veldor ! :confused:

THAT IS ALL:

Cheeks

_____________________________

Turn the other cheek

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 34

- 4/16/2003 6:29:57 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

Lars post number one? how long ya been hiding here man.

Glad you are here, glad you were able to give me the straight dope.

I will hopefully do what has been done for me before, attempt to say Veldor is an alright dude (but he can be like me "hot headed" about some views).

I hope you enjoy the Matrix forum, we have a good ASL friendly audience in here.

Most are supportive of the notion, that Steel Panthers is in so many ways, an almost ASL made computerised.

If you have not had the pleasure of playing Steel Panthers (hey I am surprised regularly that I can find people that haven't hehe), do try it, and give it your ASLers opinon.

Either way, glad you could give your input. I also have tried to get some interest going at Wargamer.

http://www.wargamer.com/forum/wargamer/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=914

Ya I linked that thread to here and this one hehe.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 35

- 4/16/2003 6:39:35 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline

Les,

Aye, post one and no hiding - I honestly had no clue about this forum till two days ago or so when JASL was included in the consim update. I went here and tried to stay out of this...

I've tried Steel Panthers and it has its charms, but these days when I am front of the PC I write software (very little playing...).

I had a look at wargamers: the AI will certainly dissapoint at this stage, it is minimal. Did you get JASL going on your machine or what happens?

see you,
Lars

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 36

- 4/16/2003 6:56:57 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
[B]Anyway, in the meantime I have contacted MMP to clarify what their position on this is. If it is their wish I will remove JASL immediately.[/B][/QUOTE]

That is the proper thing to do. It leaves nothing to question. Silent lack of opposition is not support. MMP needs to take a stance one way or the other on the slew of "freebie" products out there.

[QUOTE][B] 1) JASL competes with VASL

VASL enables a HUMAN player to play another HUMAN player either directly or via PBEM to play ASL.

JASL enables a HUMAN player to play a COMPUTER player in ASL.

I hope that was clear for you.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yep. But I don't have to learn one version of Uncommon Valor to play pbem and another to play vs the computer. Two different interfaces, two different ways to do things, two different everything. Why should a computer ASL version have to be any different? Maybe I can start the Network-Based version of ASL as yet another product. NASL. Network ASL. I hope you see my point. Why 3 products when 1 product could have all the features.

[QUOTE][B]
We (I and Rodney) have discussed the possibility of a future connection between JASL and VASL (I would like JASL to stand on its own first) and I have made it clear that I have *no* plans to copy the functionality of VASL in JASL. VASL is a great tool which has enabled me to play a great number of enjoyable and memorable games over the years.[/B][/QUOTE]

Why wait? It might take a little restructuring of the base code but it will be far far harder to combine the two later on. You also ARE duplicating code (if not functionality) in that you still have to write code to manipulate the pieces, maps and so on just as VASL does.

[QUOTE][B]
2) Java, the language
How do you know? If you want to learn I can point out some good tutorials for you.
Ah, that will surprise a whole lot of java programmers. In addition to what you find on google (try "java game market"), here is one, IL-2, a flightsim you might have heard of:
Not bad for an "awful" language IMO.[/B][/QUOTE]

I know many languages. Perhaps I should rephrase my original statement to "MOST Commercial Games were programmed in C++" instead of ALL. There is never an ALL. Just as there is a reason why most commercial games are made with DirectX, there are reasons why most use C++. A Java vs C++ comparison is not much different than other ones such as Visual Basic vs C++. Visual Basic is a higher language.. therefore easier to program with but less powerful. Java is not far from that same boat. MFC is another example of something far easier to use but seldom used in games (Not never. I believe Flashpoint Germany from Matrix is using MFC which I am a beta tester of and it applies nicely there).

Java will work nicely for the "smaller" ASL adaptation that VASL and JASL is but I stand by my belief it wouldn't work as well for a FULL blown version of Computer ASL with full functionality vs a C++ DirectX app. Of course thats not what your making, but as I stated. I think it would be better to expand the Java VASL app than to make a second Java ASL app.

[QUOTE][B]
Perhaps this is your real problem with JASL? That the "ANYONE" is not you ... otherwise "ANYONE" is doing it right now.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Nah. Like I said somewhere here I've been on the fence back and forth as to whether a Full ASL PC adaptation would be worth anything. If Combat Leader is great... its probably less duable.. but its also less doable the more "freebie" apps there are. Thats just common sense.

[QUOTE][B]
BTW: ASL "diehards" have stated that what they like about JASL is that it really *is* like ASL and not some arcade-style quickie that skips the "difficult" interface issues while adding "realistic" sound effects. What kind of graphics performance problems do you expect to have with an ASL style computer game, I mean it is a bit different from doom and quake et al.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm. I don't know what you mean by all that. Must have misunderstood a comment I made. I would want a PC version of ASL to be "TRUE" to the boardgame as well, else there is no value whatsoever in it vs other products out there. I think the point I was making is that a computerized version of ASL needs to provide things the boardgame doesnt to be successfull. Like analysis, summaries, players aids, etc as super generic examples. I dont generally like the way Java graphics and programs look/perform so I may have stated something about that vs C++/DirectX combo.

[QUOTE][B]I don't know anyone else that feels that JASL is "shotty" but perhaps you are right. Anyway it certainly doesn't apply to Rodney's VASL. I think you owe him an apology.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Well I deserve it on this one but that statement was. "What we need is a commercial or semi-commercial pc version of ASL, not a half dozen shotty amateur products". By that I wasn't really refering to any existing products just the fact that first VASL, now JASL, where does it stop? Ill do NASL, someone else will do a Cyberboard version, and so on.. They wont all be great and there will be no "Unified" platform for ASL users to play and connect. I'm a "unified" believer.

Most interesting I find it that everyone posting here seems to think my views are so "negative". Perhaps I'm just terrible at selecting wording or do not think my posting too far through... But all I've really done is stated as a die-hard fan myself of MMP's games and products what MY VISION would be. And that is ultimately for a commercial-grade full pc replacement for ASL with the "enhancements" only a PC can provide. If that is not to happen then my vision is for a single unified freeware version of VASL that is expanded to include even more features.

My initial understanding was that you were not that far along with the project. Its seems perhaps you are much further. I want as much as anyone an AI to play ASL against. I would be very supportive of that effort as well. But if you were to ask the same supportive people of your effort whether they would rather see VASL support an AI or a seperate product... I can't see that they would choose the later. And lets say they did perhaps because your interface is better or something along those lines... Then I would say why not move VASL's other functionality into your better application?

VASL or JASL it doesnt matter. There can be only one(should be only one). VASL just makes more sense because its been around since the start.

_____________________________

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 37

- 4/16/2003 7:38:39 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

Hmm that Veldor, is the hotseat you are currently sitting on eh.

Ok it appears you and Lars can talk the tech speak that goes zoom right over my head hehe.

What precisely do you envision as required for a commercial grade game?

Ok put another way, what would you consider to be required, to translate actual ASL into a computer design, such that buying a computer program with the description Computer ASL Beyond Valour (I assume it would be a bit much to make the game all in one go, just like Combat Leader is assumed to need that approach), would imply, that playing the game on the computer was defacto no different than playing the board game, with the exception I don't need my tweezers to play it?

Now just to open up that question abit further, in ASL if I want a unit to move from hex A to hex B to hex C I am doing all the math consulting all the charts, while my opponent, is conducting Defensive fire if any. I am dealing with all the variables that are encountered during the move like always. Put another way, if I have not got the manual, and have not read the manual, well I won't have any basis for where to move the counters.

What is your vision to recreate the game on the computer? I would be actually annoyed, maybe even offended, perhaps call it sacriledge if I clicked on a unit, and I got a shaded area denoting movement potentials.

[SIZE=4]Heretic!! Burn Him!![/SIZE]

Ok what I am saying, is if I want to play Steel Panthers, why not just accept it, and play Steel Panthers (or soon Combat Leader).
ASL without all that which makes it ASL, would really be an incredible waste of time (especially when a gamer can play Steel Panthers).
Additionally when the market is going to respond with "Duhhh why not just play Steel Panthers eh".

Aside from ASL requiring a rather hefty dose of Miscellaneous counters during play (yes I would like to be able to click a button and poof all the Prep Fire counters magically go to the unit storage tray, I'm not totally nuts), where does it become significantly different from software in other wargames that employ "counter images".

The Operational Art of War is a good example of a good game that relies on counters (a lot of counters).
Aside from ASL requiring the user be able to rotate the counter image, would it be much of a leap to add that function? (would it?, remember I am not code literate).

I am sure by now, there are some thinking, ahh just another elitist board gamer, doesn't want to do anything to make the game accessible to a novice wargamer.

Hmm lets examine what we are talking about here. Computer ASL.
Ok right off the bat you are assuming you can even get a novice interested in the most well known scariest manualed wargame in existence.
Computer ASL has no future ever being a novice wargame. If you can swing it, you will have blown me away though.

But I think the only market for computer ASL will be the johnny come latelys that were not buying ASL from the mid to late 70's and on through the 80's.
The hard core gamer, that will appreciate a 100 dollar (don't think for a second your game is going to be doable at the common mainstream dollar value) option, instead of the 2-3000 dollar approach will be a willing client.

I am going to reeeeally try and check into JASL and see what the AI is like now.
Although I think I would refrain from trying to make an AI capable of playing anything but small sized scenarios.
I currently can't picture anyone sufficiently gifted to design an AI that can run Red Barricades.

Board games will likely always be with us, some things are like realitives, they never go away.
I think if MMP ended up with a Computer ASL product, it would be just as fun to make money from it, as it is to make money from the board game.

M current local ASL opponent, doesn't even have a computer, and doesn't appear interested in getting one eh.
He is willing to make a 30-60 minute drive for a 3 hour game though.

There are a lot of people out there, (which the computer world seems to wish to ignore), that will never see this conversation, because they are to busy with non computer based entertainment :)

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 38

- 4/16/2003 8:29:35 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]Two different interfaces, two different ways to do things, two different everything. Why should a computer ASL version have to be any different? Maybe I can start the Network-Based version of ASL as yet another product. NASL. Network ASL. I hope you see my point. Why 3 products when 1 product could have all the features.[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, when I started getting somewhere with JASL it was not possible to hook into VASL. I had suggested it but then it was not available. So that is why there are two different interfaces.

Why should you *not* go ahead and make NASL something completely new and different? It may well blow the others out of the water. If so power to you. Please, especially since you want to do it, all you have to do is to spend some time reimplementing the functionality of JASL in C++ and DirectX and we will have a fair comparisson...

[QUOTE][B]Why wait? It might take a little restructuring of the base code but it will be far far harder to combine the two later on. You also ARE duplicating code (if not functionality) in that you still have to write code to manipulate the pieces, maps and so on just as VASL does.[/B][/QUOTE]

The area of overlapping code is not large as it is. I do not invest much time in the handling of user input, with an eye toward not having to do that later (which may well be the case). It also currently allows the VASL programming interface (API) to be redefined as Rodney pleases and I can change around with the JASL API as I prefer. I know I have changed mine completely twice which would have broken any other use of it. I have perhaps 50 - 60 classes that handle the GUI out of 600 - 700 classes so it is the smaller portion by far.

[QUOTE][B]I know many languages. Perhaps I should rephrase my original statement to "MOST Commercial Games were programmed in C++" instead of ALL. There is never an ALL. Just as there is a reason why most commercial games are made with DirectX, there are reasons why most use C++. A Java vs C++ comparison is not much different than other ones such as Visual Basic vs C++. Visual Basic is a higher language.. therefore easier to program with but less powerful. Java is not far from that same boat.[/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, I do not know if you are joking or do not know java (do you - you did not say?) when you compare it to VB. I think your initial statements [B]"Java is awful. It's not even worth an argument. I'll win it just by saying not a single commercial game product uses Java." [/B] were pretty strong without leaving any room for doubt. People with no experience in programming might even believe it.

[QUOTE][B]Java will work nicely for the "smaller" ASL adaptation that VASL and JASL is but I stand by my belief it wouldn't work as well for a FULL blown version of Computer ASL with full functionality vs a C++ DirectX app. Of course thats not what your making, ...
[/B][/QUOTE]

What do you see as the difference between the "smaller" JASL and a "FULL blown" version of computer ASL?

You seem to have a fixation with DirectX and C++.

DirectX is cool if you need your 80 frames per second in doom, but frankly I don't see this as a major problem in an ASL program where a piece may be moved every now and then... Not to mention that it wouldn't work as easily on other plattforms like Linux or others where Java runs.

[QUOTE][B]I would want a PC version of ASL to be "TRUE" to the boardgame as well, else there is no value whatsoever in it vs other products out there. I think the point I was making is that a computerized version of ASL needs to provide things the boardgame doesnt to be successfull. Like analysis, summaries, players aids, etc as super generic examples. I dont generally like the way Java graphics and programs look/perform so I may have stated something about that vs C++/DirectX combo.[/B][/QUOTE]

Now if you want a true version of what did you mean with [B]"The main problem "diehards" have is a total boardgame biased view which makes certain interface issues very difficult."[/B] - is it something which cannot be done in C++?

[QUOTE][B]Well I deserve it on this one but that statement was. "What we need is a commercial or semi-commercial pc version of ASL, not a half dozen shotty amateur products". By that I wasn't really refering to any existing products just the fact that first VASL, now JASL, where does it stop?[/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, this sounds like 180� move on your part...

[QUOTE][B]Most interesting I find it that everyone posting here seems to think my views are so "negative". Perhaps I'm just terrible at selecting wording or do not think my posting too far through... But all I've really done is stated as a die-hard fan myself of MMP's games and products what MY VISION would be.[/B][/QUOTE]

Try to reread your own posts and replace JASL (or VASL) with your up-front project.

yours,
Lars

_____________________________

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 39

- 4/16/2003 8:41:43 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Now just to open up that question abit further, in ASL if I want a unit to move from hex A to hex B to hex C I am doing all the math consulting all the charts, while my opponent, is conducting Defensive fire if any. I am dealing with all the variables that are encountered during the move like always. Put another way, if I have not got the manual, and have not read the manual, well I won't have any basis for where to move the counters.[/B][/QUOTE]

What your essentially pointing out is one of the few core elements of boardgame design mostly missing from every single computer wargame. In most cases for simplicity purposes. However that very issue has annoyed me in many a game, even ones born on the PC such as Uncommon Valor. I'd still like to know more about the criteria used "behind the scenes" so as to understand what does and doesn't have an effect in the game.

I believe that would be just one item of many that would make a PC ASL game different. To include that detail, but also in a way that doesnt make it necessary if a player doesnt want to see it. Realize even a veteran player is not going to be concerned about every last little modifier on every last battle. Now on the ones where it really counts... Many of us love that micro-management micro-factor management.

[QUOTE][B]What is your vision to recreate the game on the computer? I would be actually annoyed, maybe even offended, perhaps call it sacriledge if I clicked on a unit, and I got a shaded area denoting movement potentials.[/B][/QUOTE]

Well lets make it a selectable "preference". Certain things would make it much MUCH easier for beginners and casual players to play. Just having the program calculate all the modifiers and summarize those for you. But perhaps even to a level of calculating "in advance" much like you would survey the board going... okay if I fire here then id get this kind of to hit ratio, or if I fire there, etc. More or less a generic example but that is the level of control you have in a boardgame isn't it? Never so in a pc game you just give your orders and click "go".

---
[QUOTE][B]Ok what I am saying, is if I want to play Steel Panthers, why not just accept it, and play Steel Panthers (or soon Combat Leader).
ASL without all that which makes it ASL, would really be an incredible waste of time (especially when a gamer can play Steel Panthers).[/B][/QUOTE]

Precisely. Nothing needs to be sacrificed. Only enhacement to the information available to the player, how it is presented, and options, etc. All that is ASL is ALL missing from a game such as Steel Panthers. What it means to play ASL is not accomplished by the game. That does not make non-ASL games bad at all. They are just different games. Even if they weren't its not as if there is only one WWII First Person Shooter. There is plenty of space for more than one game.

[QUOTE][B]Aside from ASL requiring a rather hefty dose of Miscellaneous counters during play (yes I would like to be able to click a button and poof all the Prep Fire counters magically go to the unit storage tray, I'm not totally nuts), where does it become significantly different from software in other wargames that employ "counter images".[/B][/QUOTE]

You give one excellent example of the "monotony" of playing the board game version and some of the needless complexity. Its my feeling that alot of the complexity of the game of that type would be eliminated by a full PC adaptation. I wouldn't presume that anything other than counter images would be used in the game and although there would be more efficient ways than putting "prep fire" counters all over everything, It would need to be included as an option for the die-hards. But selectable preferences would allow a better approach and Im sure in time players would convert when they saw the advantages...

[QUOTE][B]Aside from ASL requiring the user be able to rotate the counter image, would it be much of a leap to add that function? (would it?, remember I am not code literate).[/B][/QUOTE]

Rotating an image is generally super simple. Better yet its probably more efficient to just store all rotations in a single bitmap and display the portion you need. Not an issue if thats what was desired.

[QUOTE][B]Hmm lets examine what we are talking about here. Computer ASL.
Ok right off the bat you are assuming you can even get a novice interested in the most well known scariest manualed wargame in existence.
Computer ASL has no future ever being a novice wargame. If you can swing it, you will have blown me away though.[/B][/QUOTE]

It would require all the things I've been a proponent of for a long time. Like multiple tutorials and so forth. You couldn't NOT do that for this game. And we all know that if you subtract out all the nitty gritty nationality and terrain rules etc and all the rules for special units you have what pretty much 80% of the rules in Chapter A? The rest of what makes ASL hard is the tactics. The tutorials simply have to walk a player through the basics of that so they feel like they "have a grip" on what it is they are suppose to do.

I think teaching and learning the game is one of the primary things a PC version could excel at. Computers are after all wonderful teaching machines.

[QUOTE][B]Although I think I would refrain from trying to make an AI capable of playing anything but small sized scenarios.
I currently can't picture anyone sufficiently gifted to design an AI that can run Red Barricades.[/B][/QUOTE]

It would be arrogant of me (I think) to state that I could BUT I will say that I have experience in Business Logic AI and basically a game AI isn't much different. In fact in some ways its simpler or at least there is less at stake. But building a complex AI is not unlike building a complex program. If you build it in a structured way, scenario size is irrelevant as its all flowing down to the same small snippets of code used in a simple scenario. Mostly AI is too often an afterthought and a rushed job. Also AI is an art in itself and most programmers are just programmers and lack that "artistic capacity".

There are things that make AI in ASL simpler, like all the phases the game is broken down into. But yet at the same time that complicates a GOOD AI because its not enough that your unit makes a good choice for prep fire... it must realize in OTHER phases that it wants to prep fire later and maneuver and otherwise do what is needed to do that. That is the problem that AI designers generally face. Its all a matter of proper design though really otherwise you get buried in the complexities of your own code. This is one reason why I firmly believe an advanced AI could never be made with something like JAVA. And why you don't see it done with Business AI and just another reason why I believe C++ is used in most commercial AI games.

One of the prominent reasons I am now developing a few games (and why you see the feature at the top of my feature lists) is to see just how "applicable" the approaches used in business AI are to games as well. Clearly, as we all know, most AI's are very lacking in ability. I don't propose to know though exactly how most of them have implemented AI. Perhaps its not far from what I intend to do. But right now I do believe it is. Only time will tell.
---
[QUOTE][B]Board games will likely always be with us.....There are a lot of people out there, (which the computer world seems to wish to ignore), that will never see this conversation, because they are to busy with non computer based entertainment :) [/B][/QUOTE]

As time goes by, the number of people without computers greatly diminishes. And most computer developers and publishers even ignore users who don't keep their hardware up to date enough... So its mostly not a big deal to me. Perhaps, in time, if such a thing happened as a Computer ASL.. future modules might only be released for the computer version. More likely if this happens it will only be because it is far cheaper and more cost effective to develop and deliver them in this form. Not because anyone is ignoring the boardgame fans left out there.

Much like the next version of Up Front has just as much chance of showing up in my game only as it seems to for ever being actually published as a card game. You tell me whats cheaper 600 high glossed cards with full color artwork on both sides or a single 2 cent CD?

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Post #: 40

- 4/16/2003 8:51:47 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline

Just some quick final comments before I hit the sack:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Ok put another way, what would you consider to be required, to translate actual ASL into a computer design, such that buying a computer program with the description Computer ASL Beyond Valour (I assume it would be a bit much to make the game all in one go, just like Combat Leader is assumed to need that approach), would imply, that playing the game on the computer was defacto no different than playing the board game, with the exception I don't need my tweezers to play it?[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually this is the goal of JASL. I want to recreate the feeling of actual playing ASL. As far as possible. It will [I]never[/I] be able to replace the feeling of a good FTF game. It can, however, allow play using the same mechanics as in ASL.

[QUOTE][B]
Now just to open up that question abit further, in ASL if I want a unit to move from hex A to hex B to hex C I am doing all the math consulting all the charts, while my opponent, is conducting Defensive fire if any. I am dealing with all the variables that are encountered during the move like always. Put another way, if I have not got the manual, and have not read the manual, well I won't have any basis for where to move the counters.

What is your vision to recreate the game on the computer? I would be actually annoyed, maybe even offended, perhaps call it sacriledge if I clicked on a unit, and I got a shaded area denoting movement potentials.

[SIZE=4]Heretic!! Burn Him!![/SIZE]
[/B][/QUOTE]

Why, I agree with you! :-) No burning required.

You drag the counter from A to B and release it there. Defensive fire is executed. Read the log. Ah, they are still alive - drag them to C. Still alive: set that DC.

But I don't see any reason as to why there can't be a tutorial mode (or newbie mode) where such possibilites are shown graphically, or an tutorial along the lines of Chapter K. "Please click on all units you believe are in LOS of your 666 in 1K4".

As for the rules; of course the will be required one way or another.

[QUOTE][B]
The Operational Art of War is a good example of a good game that relies on counters (a lot of counters).
Aside from ASL requiring the user be able to rotate the counter image, would it be much of a leap to add that function? (would it?, remember I am not code literate).
[/B][/QUOTE]

No, it would not be a great deal. I assume to keep track of which counters you have moved?

[QUOTE][B]I am sure by now, there are some thinking, ahh just another elitist board gamer, doesn't want to do anything to make the game accessible to a novice wargamer.[/B][/QUOTE]

Or both?

[QUOTE][B]
Hmm lets examine what we are talking about here. Computer ASL.
Ok right off the bat you are assuming you can even get a novice interested in the most well known scariest manualed wargame in existence.
Computer ASL has no future ever being a novice wargame. If you can swing it, you will have blown me away though.

But I think the only market for computer ASL will be the johnny come latelys that were not buying ASL from the mid to late 70's and on through the 80's.
The hard core gamer, that will appreciate a 100 dollar (don't think for a second your game is going to be doable at the common mainstream dollar value) option, instead of the 2-3000 dollar approach will be a willing client.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I think you are right; the market for computer ASL is not as big as for Steel Panthers. All other is open.

[QUOTE][B]I am going to reeeeally try and check into JASL and see what the AI is like now.[/B][/QUOTE]

Please let me know if you have any problems and what you think. Remember the AI sucks!

see you,
Lars

_____________________________

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

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Post #: 41

- 4/16/2003 9:22:56 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
[B]Why should you *not* go ahead and make NASL something completely new and different? It may well blow the others out of the water. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well competition is "suppose" to happen BETWEEN products not within one. Your WWII tactical wargame is better than his tactical wargame. Not lets all make our own versions of computer ASL and see which one is better. This is exactly what I meant. Lets say I do want to make what I believe would be better than VASL or JASL. Now I go to MMP and they say okay to that as well? When would it stop. They can't just greenlight everyone to do as they please with THEIR copyrighted materials. At some point they have to CHOOSE something and call it official, perhaps with the goal of eventually making it commercial. Its just bad business to do otherwise. Bad for them, bad for me, bad for anyone. Even if MMP states they are more interested in furthering ASL than they are in making money... such a statement cannot be true as it takes money and profitability to make that happen and we've already seen what problems MMP has had in this area with ASL and their other titles even more so.

[QUOTE][B]The area of overlapping code is not large as it is.[/B][/QUOTE]

You implied you also program for a living. Have you never been part of a multi-person development team? This is exactly how ANY development of any commercial game or application works. He writes some of the underlying code, you write the AI, that guy writes the directplay piece, so and so does the graphics and sound, and so on. On larger projects even something like the AI code can be broken down into pieces.

But at the same time I do understand where you are coming from. Im getting that your "vision" is different than his "vision" or at least what you most want to see vs what he does. Everyone wants full control. I would be no different. But if you forget all the nitty-gritty difficulties of achieveing it don't you think that ONE ASL Game in the end would be better than two seperate ones. That is, after all, all Im really saying. How can you disagree with that? Im not saying why it can or cant be done... just that that should be the preferable outcome regardless of whether its a commercial or freebie one, whether its VASL or JASL. Do you not agree that would be the best and most preferable end result?

[QUOTE][B]
not a single commercial game product uses Java." were pretty strong without leaving any room for doubt. People with no experience in programming might even believe it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Alright, Im open to looking at any statistical or similar report you can point me to that says that C++ isn't the most common language used in commercial products. Yes I know Java, VB, C++, SQL, and tons of other stuff. Perhaps I was overly harsh but do you realize you fell into the "cliche" defense of java by stating that it supports linux as well? You cant seriously think there is even a measurable base of linux only home users out there wanting to play ASL? Linux can run an emulator anyways.

[QUOTE][B]
What do you see as the difference between the "smaller" JASL and a "FULL blown" version of computer ASL?[/B][/QUOTE]

Perhaps nothing as your product isnt done. But it would need to eliminate the need for VASL, be sanctioned and approved by MMP, and make it so I did not have to own anything else to play it.

[QUOTE][B]
You seem to have a fixation with DirectX and C++.

DirectX is cool if you need your 80 frames per second in doom, but frankly I don't see this as a major problem in an ASL program where a piece may be moved every now and then... Not to mention that it wouldn't work as easily on other plattforms like Linux or others where Java runs.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Okay Im trying not to sound as harsh BUT what your stating does make some sense at first. Except that if you really build a SLICK interface then you are doing a lot more graphics manipulation. You are overlaying transparant boxes with information or combat results, repasting things, scrolling, and so on. It can all get pretty intense. This is why Uncommon Valor and others use DirectX and why they still perform supurbly and have nice interfaces(though as ASL is MUCH more complex I feel it would require even a better interface by far than UV). If all your are doing is drawning a mapboard and plunking counters down than I agree with LES that it just wont be any better, if even the same, as playing the boardgame. The interface has to be SLICK.

[QUOTE][B]"The main problem "diehards" have is a total boardgame biased view which makes certain interface issues very difficult." - is it something which cannot be done in C++?[/B][/QUOTE]

As Im sure you know C++ is pretty much the lowest level language still in use today. Its not that much lower than others but lower none-the-less. Lower equals more powerful though harder and perhaps more complex. This is simple fact. Doesn't necessarily mean its always the best choice for development but it does mean you can accomplish the most with it. The statement you reference is meant to illustrate a paradox of sorts with making a GREAT PC version of ASL. That is that what a PC version really needs as Ive already stated is a slick interface and some alternate ways to do or display things (without altering any rules) but at the same time the diehards are going to be married to the same old look despite whats better insisting you display for instance those prep fire counters... and then complain the game is no better or no easier. A Catch-22. You make it simpler and better you piss 'em off, you don't you piss 'em off. Well again perhaps too strong a wording but I know at least Les gets what I mean by this.

[QUOTE][B]Try to reread your own posts and replace JASL (or VASL) with your up-front project.[/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry I have no idea what you mean by this. Of the 3 "finished" pc adaptations of Up Front. Two dont even have any graphics. The other is the cyberboard pretty much graphics only zero logic version that no one even uses (IUF is by far the most used). So from the standpoint of doing my own thing there is nothing for me to build on. I also contacting MMP day one for permission.

I'm hopeing you'll get use to criticism. Every developer and publisher gets it. Even those who most love your game are going to whine about every little thing once they start playing it. Just look at all forums here as proof. Many times even before a game is made (GI Combat 2 being prime example). Some of the best feedback can come from those that are unhappy....

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Post #: 42

- 4/16/2003 9:34:11 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
[B]Remember the AI sucks!
[/B][/QUOTE]

How do you plan to make it better?

What methodology and/or sources are you using to develop the AI?

Also since you mention you do intend to provide a fully playable PC game, not just some "PBEM tool" or equivelant for example, perhaps you can see more the objection some would have against it.

I do not believe in concepts like abadon-ware nor does the US courts (so I am against, for instance, the person who did Web Advanced Third Reich).

I also do not believe in an individuals right to do whatever they please with someone else's copyrighted material.

Anyone who has ever created something would understand that and feel the same way though clearly the world as a whole does not respect it or else 99% of us wouldnt be downloading MP3's, games, and so on.

If MMP green lights your project than my most major objection is removed. Then I'd only like to see you be "honest" and state that you would like to see your product basically be the de-facto PC ASL game eventually rendering the others "unnecessary".

Then you've given me all I've asked for in this thread without even realizing it! (I suppose aside from it not being written in C++ with DirectX)...

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Post #: 43

- 4/16/2003 1:55:26 PM

kungfucheez

Posts: 24
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Hey is there a Free Downloadable Version of ASL?

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Post #: 44

- 4/16/2003 7:19:05 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
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Sorry to burst your bubble Kungfu, no there is no "free downloadable ASL" quite in the way I suspect you are hoping.

There is VASL and there is JASL, but these two programs allow people that own the board game, to employ there computer as an interface so they can play it electronically as well.

But if you don't actually own the board game, you don't have any way to use those two programs. There is no "computer ASL" that you have missed.

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Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 45

- 4/16/2003 9:55:58 PM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kungfucheez
[B]Hey is there a Free Downloadable Version of ASL? [/B][/QUOTE]

You can play VASL just fine if all you buy is the ASL rulebook. You definitely don't need any of the playing pieces, and you dont need the mapboards either as long as you play against someone who is agreeable to the slight variations in the online representations. Since they affect both players equally I see no big deal other than the game needs a great LOS tool and more people need to get away from this "hangup" of using the actual boards.

So $50 and a free download or $1000 and a free download. How people can still think that EVERYONE is buying the modules that plays VASL is beyond me. When people bitch about a $50 computer game I hardly think they are all ready to drop hundreds on ASL modules.

Now its true many ASL'rs enjoy Face to Face play as well, but just as many have accepted that they do not have time, space, or the opponents to ever really do that again..

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Post #: 46

- 4/16/2003 11:24:15 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Ohh phooey just call me elitist and be done with it :)

The only people whining about paying 50 bucks for computer games are wankers that wouldn't be caught dead admitting they play ASL in the first place.

ASL Rulebook 2nd Edition has sold out in just a few months after it hitting the electronic shelf.

Not sure where each copy went, but MMP has also just put on sale Operation Veritable, yet another full scale Historical Module.

For those needing perspective, picture it as a 60 dollar add on that only gives you a map a few counters, and a few custom rules. Basically the standard issue expensive computer game expansion.

No one is bitching in the ASL community.

My ASL Annuals Magazine collection (complete too boy am I proud) could fetch me in excess of 400 bucks alone. And they are just magazines eh.

The ASL community actually fights over which module gets produced next. They ain't having trouble buying em at all. You think the guys wanting Modern for Combat Leader are anxious, you ain't seen nothing.

The only person that will chose franken ASL over the real game, is a loser that will play a hacked demo for a week till the next hacked demo shows up to interest them for 2.3 weeks if that.

No one in the ASL community gives a hoot about that sort of person. I know I don't.

A computer program to run ASL on my computer will be nice. To actually play it a bit against an AI won't be so bad, but I doubt the ASL community will spend a lot of energy using it.
But VASL or JASL or any other option, will never be anything more than a tool to any real ASLer.

If it is true you can "play ASL" without actually owning anything but a rules manual, well that has just established that some will cheap out on the finer things in life and nothing more.

That is perhaps why MMP doesn't care to to some extent. Maybe Curt Shilling thinks as do I, that only a wierdo the community won't miss is going to want to play ASL that way.

No I am not magically "better" than the new wargamer (I often wonder why I get that remark sometimes with the attitude as expressed above), I am just unwilling to settle for frankenASL which I intend to use as a term to denote any concept of the game, that pretends you can enjoy the game without the game.

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Post #: 47

- 4/17/2003 2:00:24 AM

kungfucheez

Posts: 24
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all you had to say was no not give me an essay :mad:

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Post #: 48

- 4/17/2003 2:14:26 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Don't sweat it Kungfu some wargamers never give simple answers to anything. :)

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Post #: 49

- 4/17/2003 2:15:37 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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After all you can't spell analytical without ANAL heheh

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Post #: 50

- 4/17/2003 2:22:36 AM

kungfucheez

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you cant spell Les the Sarge 9-1 without laughing

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Post #: 51

- 4/17/2003 3:21:33 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]You implied you also program for a living. Have you never been part of a multi-person development team? This is exactly how ANY development of any commercial game or application works.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have done that for more years that I care to count, but am now a manager and don't to get to program as much as I would like to. Only it is hard to break parts down when I am doing this alone. ;-) But I do that too for JASL.

[QUOTE][B]
But if you forget all the nitty-gritty difficulties of achieveing it don't you think that ONE ASL Game in the end would be better than two seperate ones. That is, after all, all Im really saying. How can you disagree with that? Im not saying why it can or cant be done... just that that should be the preferable outcome regardless of whether its a commercial or freebie one, whether its VASL or JASL. Do you not agree that would be the best and most preferable end result?
[/B][/QUOTE]

No, I do not agree on that generic statement. But even if I did, what if MMP wants to have two commercial products which can work together? VASL supports many games on broad basis, JASL only one but in a different way. Which is better? There are many ways to measure "better".

[QUOTE][B]
Alright, Im open to looking at any statistical or similar report you can point me to that says that C++ isn't the most common language used in commercial products. Yes I know Java, VB, C++, SQL, and tons of other stuff. Perhaps I was overly harsh but do you realize you fell into the "cliche" defense of java by stating that it supports linux as well? You cant seriously think there is even a measurable base of linux only home users out there wanting to play ASL?
[/B][/QUOTE]

And before that it was C that was most common and before that is was assembler that was most common.

There is a large a number of Linux users that comment on JASL, indeed the first ones trying it out was Linux users. Which was amazingly cool since up to that time I had mainly used Win for writing it.

In addition there are Macintosh users that are also intrested in it. The Java GUI under the new Aqua is extremly good looking, IMO the best of all the Java looks. Actually so brilliant that my next laptop could be one, especially since the OS now is based on Unix.

Thus java allows a program to target the biggest possible market (if your intrest is in that way) in addition to providing a really productive environment.

[QUOTE][B]
Linux can run an emulator anyways.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmm, what does this do to your performance? Using an emulator will slow the program down a lot and require additional testing (not everything runs under the various emulators you know). And java makes that a non-requirement.

[QUOTE][B]
But it would need to eliminate the need for VASL, be sanctioned and approved by MMP, and make it so I did not have to own anything else to play it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

That is your opinion. As I said earlier I have no plans on including the VASL player versus player functionality.

[QUOTE][B]
Okay Im trying not to sound as harsh BUT what your stating does make some sense at first. Except that if you really build a SLICK interface then you are doing a lot more graphics manipulation. You are overlaying transparant boxes with information or combat results, repasting things, scrolling, and so on. It can all get pretty intense.
[/B][/QUOTE]

You make it sound like playing ASL requires a sack full of chrome just because it happens on a computer. The first priority must be in the functionality and ease of use, not in whistles and bells. It doesn't really matter how cool it looks if you're unable to use it. Many players of various computer games insist on being able to use the keyboard of input - how glamorous is that?

[QUOTE][B]
As Im sure you know C++ is pretty much the lowest level language still in use today. Its not that much lower than others but lower none-the-less. Lower equals more powerful though harder and perhaps more complex. This is simple fact.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Before I answer this I need to know what you mean with lowest-level and powerful.

[QUOTE][B]
I'm hopeing you'll get use to criticism. Every developer and publisher gets it. Even those who most love your game are going to whine about every little thing once they start playing it. Just look at all forums here as proof.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have been getting a lot of practice here in the last few days, thank you. And, no, I have no problem dealing with it. Takes time away I could spend better, but there you are.

regards,
Lars

_____________________________

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

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Post #: 52

- 4/17/2003 3:25:07 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]Then I'd only like to see you be "honest" and state that you would like to see your product basically be the de-facto PC ASL game eventually rendering the others "unnecessary". [/B][/QUOTE]

One chess game don't make others unnecessary, does it? As for what I want, that is to see JASL being able to play a game of ASL with me one day.

regards,
Lars

_____________________________

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

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Post #: 53

- 4/17/2003 4:34:03 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
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Some days, it could be said, the computer was the single worst thing to happen to wargaming heheh.

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Post #: 54

- 4/17/2003 4:43:33 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
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I'm quite bored with this thread as it accomplishes nothing when people do not respond to direct questions asked of them. Instead we all just post in endless circles.

But I would like to say Les that your last comments about ASL and ASL players are pretty much why you see so very little new blood to begin with in that community.

If a new player doesn't instantly fess up to the fact that ASL is the holyest of all games and better than all else and fall in line with community practice and beliefs, there is no place at all for them.

It's a very friendly community amongst itself.. but so caught up in itself it never realizes how it treats the outside world nor how the outside world sees it.

Perhaps you are right and MMP and Curt himself does see the rest as just "freaks" or whatever you want to call it. But to me a customer is a customer and it makes little business sense to ignore a set of people just because they don't have your same beliefs, wants and desires as the "inner circle" does...

Perhaps the real "freaks" are the ASL players and its the rest of the wargaming population that is sane and normal.

I don't think ASL is the best wargame ever made. I play LOTS of other things besides ASL. I don't hold some paper and cardboard elements as SACRED over the same exact stuff put into electronic form. The game is the game and the rules are the rules.

But if the ASL community has enough $$$ to keep publishing the titles it wants without new money and blood and its happy with the electronic tools as they are.. Then so be it. That doesn't leave me happy nor some others but since when did the ASL community give a #%&* about what anyone else wants?

I think its a warped perception to think that every ASL purchaser is out there begging for every new module and dropping their money on it. But just as you said why shouldn't they? They'd have to be crazy to spend it on something else first or instead. Any ASL module is worth more than some little PC product.

Les I'd accuse you of trying to make your opinions speak for the entire ASL populous. Except, in this case, I really think your opinions are the general consensous of the ASL community.

I just think its rather close-minded, highly exclusive, and as you already mentioned being accused of .. somewhat arrogant or at least somewhat selfish.

Maybe thats whats keeping all the new players away.. and not the lack of a better Chapter K?????

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(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 55

- 4/17/2003 5:13:03 AM

kungfucheez

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/4/2003
Status: offline

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 56

- 4/17/2003 5:18:39 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kungfucheez
[B]ok [/B][/QUOTE]

KungFuCheez,

Your quickly earning a reputation for being one highly opinionated fookr around here..

You might want to tone it down a notch or two :)

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(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 57

- 4/17/2003 5:24:11 AM

Ludovic Coval

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Toulon, France
Status: offline

Veldor,

[QUOTE]MFC is another example of something far easier to use but seldom used in games (Not never. I believe Flashpoint Germany from Matrix is using MFC which I am a beta tester of and it applies nicely there).[/QUOTE]

Robert may correct me but I believe that FPG is written in Delphi. AFAIK the only Matrix games using MFC is Battlefields!.

larth,

Welcome :). (BTW should not be "2b || !2b" ? ;)

LC

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 58

- 4/17/2003 5:26:18 AM

kungfucheez

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/4/2003
Status: offline

what are you getting mad at me for?!?!?!! All i said was O.K wow what point have we reached when someone gets mad at another person for saying "O.K" really, have we reached this low people?

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 59

- 4/17/2003 5:36:06 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ludovic Coval
[B]Veldor,

Robert may correct me but I believe that FPG is written in Delphi. AFAIK the only Matrix games using MFC is Battlefields!.

larth,

Welcome :). (BTW should not be "2b || !2b" ? ;)

LC [/B][/QUOTE]

HEHE. Yes you are correct FPG is written in Delphi, but MFC is something different. MFC is the Microsoft Foundation Class libraries and is a C++ library for doing windows programming. I don't know much about Delphi so I don't know if Delphi can "technically" use MFC also or simply uses its own equivelant of it but basically the statement still applies.

MFC provides an easier way to make "controls" like drop down lists, check boxes, property sheet pages, and so on. FPG uses a TON of this type of stuff and I would be 99% sure he is using MFC or an equivalent. If you didn't use MFC you would have a more custom look like Uncommon Valor or most games have. Now traditionally MFC in games is highly frowned upon as it has a good amount of overhead (especially coupled with DirectX which I believe FPG is still using also). BUT with the skinning tools and other such things FPG is employing the benefits far outweigh the negatives in that basically you are providing an interface that is on par with the best of business apps. That most games cant even touch. Property Sheets are awesome, in game editor, all the right clicking, mapi email support, and so on.

So I forget the context within which I mentioned it, but it was definitely meant as a positive in the case of FPG. Though it is somewhat "non-standard".

It will be interesting to see how Battlefields also employs MFC. It provides a lot of added functionality and stability, not too mention simplicity in programming that makes certain things possible that can't be done easily otherwise. In the right game it could be everything, used for the wrong purpose it can cause unwanted sluggishniss and an unneeded "boring" appearance that wouldn't otherwise need to be addressed.

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(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 60