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Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/28/2016 10:14:57 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Bozo was nice enough 6 months ago to post the exploit morveal I though it was going to get
fixed but I guess it has not yet? I believe MT posted on it several yrs ago.

You can drop 1500 fuel to a HQ 1 hex from railhead then move it to front and it will have close to 1500.

Basicly you can rotate HQ's and never run out of fuel at the front if done right as Bozo proved in his game

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4138172

Same can be done for Russia ect ect

When is this getting addressed?

Good job Bozo

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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/28/2016 5:43:47 PM   
Tejszd

 

Posts: 3437
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		Ouch

The amount of fuel/supplies needs to impact the movement cost. Add a simple penalty of +0, +1, +2 or +3 based on the amount of fuel and supplies a HQ is supposed to carry/move with them....

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 2
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 8:15:58 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Could someone explain the trick with more detail?

Moving HQ with a lot of dumps uses more trucks, but I don't think trucks are an issue at this stage.

Any solutions other than increasing MP cost to move loaded HQ?

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Post #: 3
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 9:28:35 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Could someone explain the trick with more detail?

Moving HQ with a lot of dumps uses more trucks, but I don't think trucks are an issue at this stage.

Any solutions other than increasing MP cost to move loaded HQ?


Never done it myself, but Bozo claims.

You have a HQ ( no units under it) withen a few hexes of a railhead and JU-52's are withen 1 hex of HQ.
Fill up HQ with 1000+ fuel, the next turn move to front lines attach divisions under it.
Then move other empty HQ back to rail heads fill it up and rotate every turn.

Can't you simply make a HQ with more then XXX fuel under it simply be removed during logistics phase?

The easy fix should be only 2 missions can be flown to any one hex including Fuel drops and recon. Not 10+ like Bozo is doing.

or

only 1 fuel drop per hex as units should be resetting to zero MP's once a drop is made.

Why is this currently not the case anyways?



< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/29/2016 9:30:48 AM >

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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 9:47:43 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		Do not permit deliveries if supply/fuel dumps are already in excess of 200. Maybe vary this limit by HQ type with 100 for Corps with increase of 50 per HQ level above it.
A similar limit should be added to logistics phase so excess dumps are slowly sent back to pool during phase 2.

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Post #: 5
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 10:15:12 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Do not permit deliveries if supply/fuel dumps are already in excess of 200. Maybe vary this limit by HQ type with 100 for Corps with increase of 50 per HQ level above it.
A similar limit should be added to logistics phase so excess dumps are slowly sent back to pool during phase 2.


People that are not exploiting get punished, if your dropping to your front line Corps HQ and after HQBU's Corps HQs
have far more then 200 fuel.

A simple fix is 1 or 2 fuel drops per hex your idea has ill effects on other areas of the game.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/29/2016 10:16:40 AM >

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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 11:07:18 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		The problem with sending back is that it's still available to be taken later from the same city. Best would be to cap air drop deliveries to certain level, but this is unrealistic. What to do with the excess?

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 7
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 12:50:42 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Just put a hard cap on how much fuel a HQ can hold. 750?

< Message edited by Michael T -- 8/29/2016 12:52:08 PM >

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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 12:52:41 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		What about blocking HQs from getting air drops? Are drops are about emergency resupply, not about stockpiling nice dumps.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 9
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 12:54:45 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Or just make local resupply of HQ and support units, without adding dumps.

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Post #: 10
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 1:26:21 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


Posts: 890
Joined: 6/25/2013
From: Bozotown
Status: offline
quote:

The easy fix should be only 2 missions can be flown to any one hex including Fuel drops and recon. Not 10+ like Bozo is doing.


In my game against Stef I usually made two drops. Only once I made three drops. The 1500 fuel HQ was only for test purposes.

The easiest fix would be to set a limit of 1 drop per unit after which the unit has 0 MP. A hard limit of 750 fuel is way too much. I never had more then 800 fuel in any HQ. Usually around 400/500.

This exploit is bad for 41 but it's downright crazy when you think how many Ju-52s the Germans get for their 42 offensive. Soviets can abuse this too but most games don't make it to 43/44 anyway.

I'm just the messenger so don't yell at me.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 11
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 2:09:34 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I think I'll make air drops resupply HQs like regular units, with attached support units, without adding any dumps. HQBU is for creating a stockpile of dumps. The rest will remain as is.

(in reply to Bozo_the_Clown)
Post #: 12
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/29/2016 2:11:33 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown
how many Ju-52s the Germans get for their 42 offensive


By the end of the summer 42 my Ju-52s are in a sorry state, at most 7-10 active per group at start of turn... I demand impossible from them (using only unit resupply though, and that didn't look overpowered to me)

(in reply to Bozo_the_Clown)
Post #: 13
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/30/2016 1:02:29 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


Posts: 890
Joined: 6/25/2013
From: Bozotown
Status: offline
quote:

I think I'll make air drops resupply HQs like regular units, with attached support units, without adding any dumps. HQBU is for creating a stockpile of dumps. The rest will remain as is.


Please explain to me what this means and how this is different from now. Does this mean that any fuel an HQ receives via air drop can only be used for that HQ and it's support units and none of it is funneled to the attached divisions the following turn? That would be an excellent fix! Fuel transport would then have to go directly to divisions.

< Message edited by Bozo_the_Clown -- 8/30/2016 3:23:24 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/30/2016 6:40:06 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		As I understand the comment all supply/fuel dropped on HQs is only delivered to the HQ's own stock and to assigned support units, it won't be used to create supply/fuel dumps anymore which may then be distributed to attached combat units.

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Post #: 15
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/30/2016 9:04:52 PM   
Aditia

 

Posts: 573
Joined: 3/27/2011
Status: offline 		Agree a fix is needed. I also think careful thought needs to go into this one as it is an important mechanic that needs to not be broken by the fix.

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Post #: 16
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/30/2016 9:16:36 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Denniss is right in his interpretation. And I think that fix breaks nothing in the desired way of resupplying via air (directly to the unit(s) that you want resupplied, without intermediaries), while removing HQ shenanigans.

(in reply to Aditia)
Post #: 17
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/30/2016 9:29:10 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


Posts: 890
Joined: 6/25/2013
From: Bozotown
Status: offline
quote:

Denniss is right in his interpretation. And I think that fix breaks nothing in the desired way of resupplying via air (directly to the unit(s) that you want resupplied, without intermediaries), while removing HQ shenanigans.


Greatly appreciated!

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 18
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/30/2016 10:05:07 PM   
Icier


Posts: 564
Joined: 7/15/2014
From: a sunny beach nsw
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

As I understand the comment all supply/fuel dropped on HQs is only delivered to the HQ's own stock and to assigned support units, it won't be used to create supply/fuel dumps anymore which may then be distributed to attached combat units.

does seem logical

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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/30/2016 11:15:56 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Will the fix affect normal (non airlift) fuel accumulation that you see in HQ's? And the ability to move that supply forward? Eg the fuel the HQ's start with. I fear for breaking other indirectly related supply/fuel functions that are part of the normal supply process.



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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/31/2016 12:52:11 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		So morveal you really do not understand how 1.0 logistics works?

you are going to "fix" something you do not know it works?

basicly the same as 2by3 tring to fix WitW logistic and they have no fing clue how that works?

so

2.0 is doomed because the people doing the coding of 1.0 and WitW have no fing idea how logistics based on their coding?

MT ASK allot more questions because you have a clue based on exp and the same goes for Bozo and Sapper.

What is amazing is some really really smart people have no clue whats going on

I am a retard and know how this works and cant code a fing thing 1.0 or 2.0

Morveal your fix sucks and you know it - my fix is better and you and 2by3 know it but will not do it because its Peltons idea?

Which is why 2.0 is looking hopeless at this point

< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/31/2016 12:57:44 AM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/31/2016 7:42:36 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Will the fix affect normal (non airlift) fuel accumulation that you see in HQ's? And the ability to move that supply forward? Eg the fuel the HQ's start with. I fear for breaking other indirectly related supply/fuel functions that are part of the normal supply process.




Why would it?

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 22
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/31/2016 8:27:42 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I will let that one go through to the keeper.

But to be honest I don't think this is going in the right direction. Why shouldn't we be able to drop fuel on a HQ and truck it forward? A truck is a truck, whether in a HQ or a Unit. Why is it trucks in units can move fuel forward but not trucks in HQ's?

The fix is overly restrictive IMO.

I think a hard cap seems a more sensible limit rather than a total ban. Why not a sensible limit that each HQ can accept from air lifts.

The player is using trucks to move the fuel forward. That is the price he is paying. I still think a limit on how much fuel a HQ can hold and move is more sensible. And restrict it to Panzer/Tank HQ's only.

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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/31/2016 10:08:05 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		This is IMHO the only fix that will work and prevent HQ from being airborne fuel carriers. HQBUed HQs are now less prone to this abuse, because of the reassignment restrictions on the turn of HQBU and turn after.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 24
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/31/2016 11:40:35 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

This is IMHO the only fix that will work and prevent HQ from being airborne fuel carriers. HQBUed HQs are now less prone to this abuse, because of the reassignment restrictions on the turn of HQBU and turn after.


Thanks for all hard work morveal.

I sure hope your right about this - I will trust your judgement on this as you been right more then I have in the past.

This issue has carry over going forward just not in this game 1.0 I am begging you and 2by3 to focus on this area going forward.




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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 8/31/2016 11:42:55 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

quote:

The easy fix should be only 2 missions can be flown to any one hex including Fuel drops and recon. Not 10+ like Bozo is doing.


In my game against Stef I usually made two drops. Only once I made three drops. The 1500 fuel HQ was only for test purposes.

The easiest fix would be to set a limit of 1 drop per unit after which the unit has 0 MP. A hard limit of 750 fuel is way too much. I never had more then 800 fuel in any HQ. Usually around 400/500.

This exploit is bad for 41 but it's downright crazy when you think how many Ju-52s the Germans get for their 42 offensive. Soviets can abuse this too but most games don't make it to 43/44 anyway.

I'm just the messenger so don't yell at me.


Its a good "find" and you brought it to light in an AAR so it could not be over looked.

Good Job






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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 9/12/2016 6:12:18 PM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 394
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline 		Part of the the issue is you are trying to find a solution for a problem that shouldn't be in the game at all. Air lift of fuel for even a single division sized unit for offensive operations DID NOT HAPPEN in the war, let alone a week of operations. Last time we talked about this, someone pointed out that there probably was a week or two of operations by a mech brigade in Burma supported by air, and someone else pointed out that an armor brigade was supported by air in 73 iirc. But not on the Eastern Front. It just didn't happen. The whole idea of using airlift as a form of HQBU, which is itself a flawed game construct, is just completely fantasy. Front line HQs should not be drawing supplies from airdrops ever if they are able to draw supplies overland. I looked at the amount of verifiable air supply and found that, for example, the total lift of supplies during Fall Blau amounted to something like 20k tons, the majority was personnel transfer. That is enough to support a single division for about 3 weeks of fighting....

I know people have read about air dropped supplies feeding the spearhead, but you have to understand the difference between dropping a few tons of bullets so that an Aufklärung bn can clear the village ahead, and dropping 1000 tons of fuel so an entire division can rumble 150 miles through the russian countryside.

There were 2 major supply airlift attempts, both of which used nearly ALL available airlift for the front, Demyansk and Stalingrad. Both used established airbases, ie concrete runways. Neither was able to deliver 400 tons a day, and averaged closer to 200 per day. The total fuel delivered to Stalingrad was about 880 tons, for the entire airlift. At Demyansk, there were about 64k tons of supplies delivered, but this took more than 32k sorties and the period from early Feb to 5 May. Interestingly, the airlift used 42k tons of fuel and 3k tons of lubricants.

There is a good discussion here
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=43495
with some great photos, especially the ones of them unloading fuel barrels. Imagine how long it would take to unload enough barrels to fill up an entire panzer division for even one day of operations.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 27
RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 9/12/2016 10:12:31 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		You forget that without HQBU or Air drop of fuel the supply system cannot replicate the blitzkrieg of 1941. WITE lacks the ability to prioritize units with fuel or build up stock piles (fixed in witw I beleive). Hence the need for other abstracted fuel/supply methods. So IMO flying in fuel and HQBU is justified o these grounds. If abuse occurs limit it. Which has been happening ever since release. But a total ban does not get my vote. It weakens the Germans yet again with no compensation.

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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 9/13/2016 10:35:30 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

You forget that without HQBU or Air drop of fuel the supply system cannot replicate the blitzkrieg of 1941. WITE lacks the ability to prioritize units with fuel or build up stock piles (fixed in witw I beleive). Hence the need for other abstracted fuel/supply methods. So IMO flying in fuel and HQBU is justified o these grounds. If abuse occurs limit it. Which has been happening ever since release. But a total ban does not get my vote. It weakens the Germans yet again with no compensation.


I forget the patch but they basicly nerfed it out and game was a disaster.

Germany could not get past the major rivers during summer and Russia was driving on Berlin by summer of 42 with Berlin falling in 43.

Which is why UBER nerf was removed and small nerfs done patch after patch.

The logistics is not the issue with Russia its generally a complete lack of player skills.

MT has been winning even when there were 6-8 HQBU/logistics exploits as Russia.

Now there is 1 and its a small one.


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RE: Bozo's traveling Circus fuel HQ exploit - 9/16/2016 6:11:53 PM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 394
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline 		Michael, that is a good point. If you are right, then yes it is better to have it. It is an ahistorical kluge (bleh!) but you are right that the historical effect of blitzkrieg is important. I am not totally convinced that HQBU/Air drop are necessary to get historical advances, but you make a salient point.

I guess also that it doesn't really matter because all the work is going into 2.0 now so the game is what it is at this point.

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