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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve

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Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 2:09:36 AM

tocaff

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I'm playing the Allied side in late 1/43 and find myself on the verge of losing my last tiny toehold in India, China is almost in the same predicament. The Soviets are active and the USN has been hammered badly. In VP terms it's at a 4.8:1 ratio at present.

Everything I've tried to do has come up empty for I get bloodied for my efforts. Steve has been extremely good at his planning and execution. His anticipation has been nothing short of awesome.

So I find myself trying to fight the feeling of doing something new to me: Throwing in the towel.

In short I could use some fresh ideas so if you want to try and help me out PM me and I'll share the gory particulars and listen to your ideas.

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 5:53:47 AM

Anachro

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How bad is the USN? My thoughts are its Jan 1 1943 and the best of the USN is yet to come. Have you not managed to inflict appropriate retaliatory attrition on the IJN at all?

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 8:09:05 AM

Leandros

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Would it be possible for you to post the large map here so we can see how you stand in respect of territory?

Fred

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 9:38:52 AM

KenchiSulla

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India is not all that important if you are able to advance through the DEI, South, Southwest and Central pacific or a combination of those.... What is important against Japan is sinking ships. What does the damage look like from the IJN point of view?

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 11:56:05 AM

tocaff

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The IJN has managed to dish it out with negligible losses. The USN has lost a handful of cruisers and 2 CVs to date with 2 more running for their lives.

I'd post a map, but suffice it to say that I hold Karachi and Hyderabad (Sindh) in India. Until the Med opens the route to Aden supply to Karachi is tenuos, at best. Suva is in Japanese hands. Oz is all mine as is NZ. China has been reduced to Chungking, Kunming and a handful of smaller cities.

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 12:50:10 PM

KenchiSulla

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You can continue to play on after auto victory for the Japanese. You'll never see the victory screen again in your game but is that really all that important?

Sounds like you are in decent shape... Your essex carriers and CVEs will soon start to arrive, giving you a lot of options. I would like to suggest to you to build up your carrier fleet and try to find an advance vector that you can support just with surface ships and land based air until you are ready to attack central pacific...

Perhaps a small offensive up in the north pacific.. Try picturing quartering the Japanese.... Attack North, South and West with Central Pacific added once you can support it... Monitor which bases the Japanese are building up. That should give you an idea of resistance you can expect...

If he wants to protect the coast line of India he will need keep ships there.. If he keeps ships near India he will have less in the Pacific...

< Message edited by KenchiSulla -- 8/29/2016 12:54:37 PM >

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 1:23:10 PM

Leandros

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Some hints. Forget about all the diversions and the Pacific, concentrate your forces in Australia. It doesn't cost much to make detours down via NZ. Push up through the Moluccans - Ambon, Menado, to Mindanao. He must be weak there with so much territory to occupy elsewhere. See to that the area is properly scouted, organize destroyer task forces to strike at transports which are spotted. Base your naval forces in conquered ports with proper airfield and fighter cover. If necessary use your carrier fighters from airfields. Those airfields must have proper ground support to keep the fighters operational. Lure him onto a base near an own strong base. Use that base to strike from with your destroyer task forces. Remember to have tenders for your fighting ships. They fight badly when out of ammo. preferably use destroyers with a good torpedo complement, that is the most effective.

If he has Savu use Pago Pago as a base for interdiction of that base. Don't use resources on trying to take it. You must have heaps of submarines by now. Concentrate them in the areas you want to attack or defend.

The big map would give a much better basis for advice.

Hals und Beinbruch!

Fred

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 1:25:26 PM

Itdepends

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As long as you and your opponent feel ok with playing past autovictory, go for it. Focus on preserving your naval forces, training up your pilots and only contesting in the air when you have to. Taking down his navy is a priority, without command of the seas anything in India is yours to take at your leisure, although he will get a significant heavy industry bonus from his conquest.

Attack from multiple vectors at once, given how spread out he is you can force him to react from one end of the map to the other. E.g. Kuriles to India and back. If you do plan an attack you expect him to react to with KB be prepared to flood the area with submarines, this is a good option for The Indian theatre given the longer distance to large shipyards.

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 1:51:15 PM

LeeChard

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Sounds to me like you have a chance to have an interesting and excellent game.
Maybe you guys could agree on an end date, like Aug 1 1945, and see how far you
can pound your way back.

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Post #: 9

RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 1:56:45 PM

tocaff

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We ignored the AV at the beginning of the year and hopefully I can manage to push back soon. My biggest problem is that he seems to have me figured out and everything I've tried has come up empty or was a trap. 2 CVs are running for their lives and another CVTF is gone (2 CVs, 4 cruisers and 6 DDs) after raiding Marcus and Wake.

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

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Post #: 10

RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 2:18:12 PM

Leandros

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

We ignored the AV at the beginning of the year and hopefully I can manage to push back soon. My biggest problem is that he seems to have me figured out and everything I've tried has come up empty or was a trap. 2 CVs are running for their lives and another CVTF is gone (2 CVs, 4 cruisers and 6 DDs) after raiding Marcus and Wake.

Don't do the obvious. Leave him in India. Punch him in his guts. Drive up the Moluccans, but you need to take a couple of his bases there, Ambon and Menado
being the best. From there, Zamboanga and Palawan, then you can close off the South China Sea. How are you for ground forces and amphibian capacity?

If he is superior on the naval side you need land bases.

Fred

< Message edited by Leandros -- 8/29/2016 2:19:57 PM >

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 2:33:56 PM

KenchiSulla

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Tocaff, raiding with your carriers near Wake and Marcus is usually only a good idea if you are sure you can get away it and have nothing else to do with your carriers... And even then, it is better to keep him guessing

< Message edited by KenchiSulla -- 8/29/2016 2:34:51 PM >

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 5:03:04 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

The IJN has managed to dish it out with negligible losses. The USN has lost a handful of cruisers and 2 CVs to date with 2 more running for their lives.

I'd post a map, but suffice it to say that I hold Karachi and Hyderabad (Sindh) in India. Until the Med opens the route to Aden supply to Karachi is tenuos, at best. Suva is in Japanese hands. Oz is all mine as is NZ. China has been reduced to Chungking, Kunming and a handful of smaller cities.

He is quite over extended and there will be plenty of opportunity to hurt him later in the game if he tries to hold what he has taken. Your ship losses have been quite light considering so you have really not lost so much. It is my contention that it is almost impossible for the Allies to lose if they do not lose their carriers in 1942. You have only lost two so I consider you to be in good shape. The Allies just start to have some fun in 1943. Even if you continue to get pounded, it will be at the hands of a good player and I think the lessons learned are worth considering. Don't lose your head and you will be amazed how fast things will turn around. Especially if his perimeter is as big as it is now. The Allies can lose China and not even come close to losing the game. India is a different story depending on your Commonwealth losses but can also be a trap for him if he stays too long.

Now, if he likes to keep KB together then split your carriers and assault ships and attack bases in the theater where you know his carriers are not present. If he likes to split his carriers then keep all of yours together and focus on sinking his. You got a lot of fun ahead of you. You lost two CVs because you were operating them and did not know where his CVs were at the time. Never conduct an operation if you are not 99% sure where his carriers are. If he has you figured out then it might be time to adjust and figure him out.

You are not playing for money are you? If not does it really matter? Sounds like a potentially fun and challenging game ahead.

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 5:59:27 PM

tocaff

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No, not playing for money, just the enjoyment. Win, lose or draw I play for the enjoyment.

I thought I knew where the KB was, but obviously some coastwatchers' and signet reports were less than accurate. Oh well, the FOW has bitten my posterior once again.

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 6:06:08 PM

traskott

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If u quit, let me play that game. Sounds like a challenge!!!

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 7:05:55 PM

Encircled

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I've played the Japanese a lot, a hell of a lot and there will be holes in his Empire.

If he's gone for Suva and all in for India, then he's going to have some massive holes and it does sound like you should be able to hurt him from Oz

Hang in there!

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/29/2016 8:28:19 PM

crsutton

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If you have not done so, I suggest you read some of Canoerebel's AARs. The secret to halting Japanese aggression is not to try and react to his offensives but to mount a major counter offensive in a place where you know his carriers are not operating and where he will have to react. When Dan does massive he means to take everything he has to the show. Putting a massive force in the Japanese breadbasket forces him to abandon support for his actions in the Indian Ocean and in 1943 probably is a spot that he will not be able to take back. If the Japanese player does not react you can continue to push him until he is forced to do something. In 1943 you will not be quite strong enough to beat Japanese carriers but are strong enough to beat him anywhere else on the map. Dan's last AAR with John IIIrd is good example of that. Basically, the Japanese party stops when the initiative is taken from them. Canoe is a master at doing that early in a game.

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/30/2016 12:00:54 AM

tocaff

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I'm going to dive into a turn now. Somehow I'll need to keep tabs on the KB. Despite the loses at least he reacted to me. Now I just might be tempted to throw the RN back into the IO since it'll only be faced with old BBs and maybe CVLs or CVEs. I'll keep you posted.

By the way Steve (SierraJuliet) is doing an AAR. We played against each other using WITP and I won. He's vastly improved in this game so only kudos for him.

Quit? Nah, I might've played with the idea, but I'll have to have no hope at all before the white flag goes up.

I'm always learning with these games from UV to WITP to AE.

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/30/2016 4:33:40 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

If you have not done so, I suggest you read some of Canoerebel's AARs. The secret to halting Japanese aggression is not to try and react to his offensives but to mount a major counter offensive in a place where you know his carriers are not operating and where he will have to react. When Dan does massive he means to take everything he has to the show. Putting a massive force in the Japanese breadbasket forces him to abandon support for his actions in the Indian Ocean and in 1943 probably is a spot that he will not be able to take back. If the Japanese player does not react you can continue to push him until he is forced to do something. In 1943 you will not be quite strong enough to beat Japanese carriers but are strong enough to beat him anywhere else on the map. Dan's last AAR with John IIIrd is good example of that. Basically, the Japanese party stops when the initiative is taken from them. Canoe is a master at doing that early in a game.

Great advice here. I've kicked the SNOT out of Dan repeatedly and he just keeps on coming. The key is multi-axis offensive. If you attack from only one direction then I can concentrate and have a chance of defeating you. Attack from different locations and you whipsaw the Japanese back-and-forth. Not good from the Japanese perspective...

You are only at the start of 1943. Keep at it! I inflicted a monstrous land defeat upon the Allied Armies in Sumatra with Dan in Spring of 1943 and just six months later he is coming at me all over AGAIN.

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 8/30/2016 4:34:34 PM >

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/30/2016 9:21:51 PM

oaltinyay

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Well, u are overestimating his capability and understimating yours.

1. He's probably shot up in HI and must be diverting oil from industry supply to fleet supply just to keep his garrisons supplied.

2. He's just woken up into a logistical night mare so even keeping his maritime fleet in operation will occupy his top agenda.

3. He can never properly supply Suva with fuel. Never.

4. He can not afford to send the ships home to upgrade with such a map, and any damage is almost long term.

5. He has too few land units to cover that front. Not even close...

Possible actions.

1. He's probably keeping Palembang undefended - gather all those new shiny CVs and start your offensive from there.

2. Suva can be invested from Samoa, land there and enlarge the base and use your 2E atk planes to interdict anything that comes close.

3. If Soviets are active that means you have the best AFs in the game to bomb Japan even now , just channel all your heavies there and let him grind his way into siberia.

4. He must have a few trade route focus routes - use the subs there. Takao is one, Suva is another and lastly Palembang port is a sure bet.

5. Raid using surface ships , he can not possibly have that many betty equipped AFs in the pacific

6. Hit and Run with your 2 carriers , switch oceans if possible and keep him off balance. A small ''fleet in being'' has incredible potential to create havoc on enemy planning.

and also - if u want to quit, I'm a candidate to take your part.

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/30/2016 9:23:44 PM

oaltinyay

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ps. does anyone know how to snapshot a game and turn it into a scenario file ? if possible ?

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/30/2016 9:48:13 PM

Dili

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He is over extended.

Edit: you said Soviets are active, so what is happening in Kwantung?

< Message edited by Dili -- 8/30/2016 10:22:39 PM >

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/31/2016 12:01:31 AM

BBfanboy

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I know how to take a screen shot and save it as a picture, but I have no idea what you mean by saving as a scenario file.
You can upload a saved game turn for others to examine (but they need to have the same game version as you do and know the password for any PBEM save.

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/31/2016 1:20:15 AM

rustysi

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quote:

3. If Soviets are active that means you have the best AFs in the game to bomb Japan even now , just channel all your heavies there and let him grind his way into siberia.

I haven't played as the Allies yet, but I don't think Allied forces can operate from Soviet territory, active or not. I'd check on this first. At any rate having the Soviets active has to complicate the Japanese position no matter what.

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/31/2016 1:30:39 AM

tocaff

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To my understanding the Rodina is for the Soviets and that's it.

I'm not quitting, just groping for fresh ideas.

My subs need some forward bases from which to operate.

Bettys and Nells are covering fairly well for Steve so far.

I'll be hitting on a couple of fronts, but the loss of the 2 CVs leaves me in deep stuff having to face LBA when I go.

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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/31/2016 1:39:48 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

3. If Soviets are active that means you have the best AFs in the game to bomb Japan even now , just channel all your heavies there and let him grind his way into siberia.

I haven't played as the Allies yet, but I don't think Allied forces can operate from Soviet territory, active or not. I'd check on this first. At any rate having the Soviets active has to complicate the Japanese position no matter what.

I have used Russian shipyards to repair US ships, but they do not refuel or rearm them. Just put some AOs and AEs there. Haven't tried air ops but putting an Allied BF with Allied aircraft should work ... except I am not sure they will get the supplies you unload for them.
That said, I have never heard of anyone mounting a bombing campaign from Russia that can hit significant industrial targets (save the LI, Oil and Resources on Sakhalin).

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/31/2016 2:16:42 AM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

To my understanding the Rodina is for the Soviets and that's it.

I'm not quitting, just groping for fresh ideas.

My subs need some forward bases from which to operate.

Bettys and Nells are covering fairly well for Steve so far.

I'll be hitting on a couple of fronts, but the loss of the 2 CVs leaves me in deep stuff having to face LBA when I go.

Don't go too nuts. IMHO, Allied players tend to want to strike back before they are ready. This will allow the Japanese to defeat them in detail.

Remember strike where he isn't. Conserve 'til the Essex carriers start to roll in, and don't forget the F6F, comes mid/late '43 IIRC.

He's got to be greatly overextended with what he's taken. That is your ace in the hole. Your objective is to find where you can engage him on at least equal terms.

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Post #: 27

RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/31/2016 2:24:49 AM

PaxMondo

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So, I play IJ. He's done well. But as others note, your assets have not yet started to come in. That the allies will still 'win' the war is still almost a foregone conclusion even now ...

I would caution you to not let him hold India too long ... the HI/LI there is a great expansion to his economy. Every 6 months he holds it is many thousands more AC he will be able to build above the normal expectation (this includes the Burma oil which historically they got almost nothing from).

PS: I never play with AV and never look at it ...

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/31/2016 3:46:19 AM

Dobey455

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

To my understanding the Rodina is for the Soviets and that's it.

I'm not quitting, just groping for fresh ideas.

My subs need some forward bases from which to operate.

Bettys and Nells are covering fairly well for Steve so far.

I'll be hitting on a couple of fronts, but the loss of the 2 CVs leaves me in deep stuff having to face LBA when I go.

Honestly, the impact of losing of 2 CV's by early '43 seems to have been more psychological than anything else, in that its clearly shaken you up a bit, or at least is playing on your mind.

I've lost count of then number of AAR's I've read in which the Allied player looses 2 or more CV's in the first few weeks of the war, let alone after 18 months.

I'm not arguing that he has obviously done very well overall, but purely in terms of carrier losses you aren't travelling badly at all.
In fact, to put it in perspective by Jan 1943 IRL the USN had lost twice that number of CV's (Lexington, Wasp, Yorktown and Hornet were all lost in 1942).

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RE: Beaten, Battered, But Unbowed/ No Steve - 8/31/2016 7:42:27 PM

Anachro

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In my current PBEM, I lost Lexington, Enterprise, and Yorktown in Jan 1942. Admittedly, I also caused the Japanese player to lose Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Ryujo, and Taiyo, but painful nonetheless.

I've come to the conclusion that such losses for the Japanese player are, in the short-term, strategical minimal (if he doesn't lose the more than 2-3 carriers), as the Japanese player can simply speed up his production of Junyo, Hiyo, and the CVLs and maintain CV superiority throughout 1942. After Wasp, an American player does not get new CV until Essex in mid 1943. This is partially offset by the fact that American carriers can general carry more plaes and have room for additional fighter protection. However, come the introduction of the Essexes in number in mid-1943, along with the prevention of further carrier losses, the Japanese player will really begin to miss his lost carriers. Thus, its probably worth it if you can trade carrier for carrier in '42.

Even if you lose your carriers and he loses none, you should still be back to parity by the end of 1943 if not sooner. Given you've only lost two, it should be sooner for you. My ambush of the KB happened in January 1942 with 3 CVs versus his 6 and the initial encounter saw me lose 1 carrier for 2 of his outright with the additional losses happening later. What I am trying to say is that, given the right opportunity, planning, and luck, you can still inflict good damage and use your carriers strategically versus the KB until the introduction of the Essex class.