Posts: 73
Joined: 6/24/2009 From: Atlanta Status: offline
I thought I'd ask a general question of wargames and developers... Why hasn't a deeply detailed operational game every been made depicting the Vietnam War? I'm thinking on the level of a Gary Grigsby game, Command Ops, or the Flashpoint Series as an example. The closest I've seen is a long series of scenarios for The Operation Art Of War III called the Vietnam Combat Operations series (which is phenomenal if anyone hasn't seen it). There are a lot of variables and approaches to strategy on both sides of the DMZ that could make for some fantastic grognard-level wargaming, and I'm just wondering why it hasn't been approached.
_____________________________
Jay USMC '98-'06 0311-4341
"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics." - Gen. Omar Bradley
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. " - Gen. George S. Patton
The Vietnam war was not a conventional affair. The struggle in South Vietnam revolved around guerilla tactics and suppression of same. In every stand up battle the US won hands down. That is pretty hard to depict in a game that is not tactical at level.
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/24/2009 From: Atlanta Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Twotribes
The Vietnam war was not a conventional affair. The struggle in South Vietnam revolved around guerilla tactics and suppression of same. In every stand up battle the US won hands down. That is pretty hard to depict in a game that is not tactical at level.
I dunno if I agree, though. . . it's pretty well depicted at the boardgame level with Fire In The Lake (which is very popular) and the old VG game Vietnam 1965-1975. The latter was published in the mid-80's and is still played today. I can't help but think that if boardgame developers can pull it off with dice and charts, a computer game could master all that much faster and with broader scope.
_____________________________
Jay USMC '98-'06 0311-4341
"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics." - Gen. Omar Bradley
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. " - Gen. George S. Patton
Probably not what you are wanting exactly, but have you ever seen Fire in the Lake from GMT Games? It's a board game in their COIN series that depicts the war in Vietnam. It's really quite excellent, though the combat is fairly abstract. You can play as the US, the VC, the NVA, or the ARVN. It can be played solo against AI bots or with other people of course. Probably the overall best Vietnam game of any type in recent years.
For the record, the COIN series is totally amazing. PC wargames could learn a thing or two from these games when it comes to the question of how a "wargame" should depict the rest of the war outside of the combat itself.
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/24/2009 From: Atlanta Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ranger33
Probably not what you are wanting exactly, but have you ever seen Fire in the Lake from GMT Games? It's a board game in their COIN series that depicts the war in Vietnam. It's really quite excellent, though the combat is fairly abstract. You can play as the US, the VC, the NVA, or the ARVN. It can be played solo against AI bots or with other people of course. Probably the overall best Vietnam game of any type in recent years.
For the record, the COIN series is totally amazing. PC wargames could learn a thing or two from these games when it comes to the question of how a "wargame" should depict the rest of the war outside of the combat itself.
Yeah! I have A Distant Plain. I haven't played it yet, but I'm very familiar with the series. I agree game developers could learn a few things from the paper wargames in terms of overall game mechanics. As an aside, one game that could really make a great port into computer is the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War series.
_____________________________
Jay USMC '98-'06 0311-4341
"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics." - Gen. Omar Bradley
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. " - Gen. George S. Patton
ORIGINAL: WriterJWA Yeah! I have A Distant Plain. I haven't played it yet, but I'm very familiar with the series. I agree game developers could learn a few things from the paper wargames in terms of overall game mechanics. As an aside, one game that could really make a great port into computer is the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War series.
Very cool! I also have A Distant Plain. I've set it up once but had to pack it up after playing the tutorial due to my wife urgently needing the table space. It definitely feels a bit "heavier" in tone given the much more contemporary subject matter. That said, I look forward to getting it back out soon and giving it a whirl. I also own Liberty or Death and Falling Sky, which are really fun experiences.
Playing the Romans in Falling Sky will really make you appreciate just how skillful Julius Caesar had to have been to conquer Gaul.
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/24/2009 From: Atlanta Status: offline
I have, yeah. They're not bad, but a little one-dimensional and dated. I also don't think they really grasp the problems specific to Vietnam. It's almost like they could change the pieces and maps to a WWII setting and the game wouldn't change a bit.
_____________________________
Jay USMC '98-'06 0311-4341
"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics." - Gen. Omar Bradley
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. " - Gen. George S. Patton
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/24/2009 From: Atlanta Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ranger33
quote:
ORIGINAL: WriterJWA Yeah! I have A Distant Plain. I haven't played it yet, but I'm very familiar with the series. I agree game developers could learn a few things from the paper wargames in terms of overall game mechanics. As an aside, one game that could really make a great port into computer is the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War series.
Very cool! I also have A Distant Plain. I've set it up once but had to pack it up after playing the tutorial due to my wife urgently needing the table space. It definitely feels a bit "heavier" in tone given the much more contemporary subject matter. That said, I look forward to getting it back out soon and giving it a whirl. I also own Liberty or Death and Falling Sky, which are really fun experiences.
Playing the Romans in Falling Sky will really make you appreciate just how skillful Julius Caesar had to have been to conquer Gaul.
Yeah, I worked through the tutorial and watched a few gameplay videos. It's looks rad as heck. I have the VASSAL module for it, and I've been meaning to run a solitaire play-through to get a better handle on it. I really want to pick up Fire In The Lake though. I really hope they take a crack at Iraq (2003-2011), too.
_____________________________
Jay USMC '98-'06 0311-4341
"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics." - Gen. Omar Bradley
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. " - Gen. George S. Patton
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/24/2009 From: Atlanta Status: offline
I keep thinking about all the possibilities with a Vietnam War operational-level game. Some of the things that would really cool to see represented:
-U.S. commitment levels and its effect on pacification, home front morale (and in turn troop morale). -Development of the ARVN and its effectiveness in the face of a corrupt government. -The logistical challenges in maintaining conventional and guerrilla forces in tropical and mountainous environments. -Intelligence, either through SIGINT (via "McNamara's Line" and such), or HUMINT. -The air campaign over N. Vietnam and its political ramifications. -Multi-battalion airmobile and amphibious combat operations.
What else could be represented?
_____________________________
Jay USMC '98-'06 0311-4341
"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics." - Gen. Omar Bradley
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. " - Gen. George S. Patton
Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003 From: England Status: offline
TOAWIII has a lot of Vietnam scenarios..including if I remember an extensive user made set.
When I was around 12\13 in the mid eighties I was obsessed with Vietnam after watching Apocalypse Now and reading The 13th Valley and Fields of Fire (13th Valley is still one of my favourite novels). I desperately wanted to talk to veterans about what they experienced. Living in the UK and obviously not internet it was an impossibility. I also used to get a magazine each month that came out around then about the war, had a poster on my wall of the country with major engagements etc on it. The Falklands had not long ago happened which I followed but it didn't grab my attention like the Vietnam War.
< Message edited by wodin -- 9/6/2016 6:16:57 PM >
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/24/2009 From: Atlanta Status: offline
Both The 13th Valley and Fields of Fire are fantastic books! I've played the TOAWIII scenarios (I mention them in the first post). They're great, but they're not conjoined so all the progress I might gain in once scenario is lost in the next. Additionally, the TOAW engine is a little dated at this point, and built around conventional warfare.
_____________________________
Jay USMC '98-'06 0311-4341
"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics." - Gen. Omar Bradley
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. " - Gen. George S. Patton
Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003 From: England Status: offline
Dak To by E Murphy, Steel my soldiers hearts by D Hackworth and American Warrior by Doc Bahnsen are three superb memoirs and again up in my Top Twenty books.
Whoops sorry missed you mentioning TOAWIII:)
quote:
ORIGINAL: WriterJWA
Both The 13th Valley and Fields of Fire are fantastic books! I've played the TOAWIII scenarios (I mention them in the first post). They're great, but they're not conjoined so all the progress I might gain in once scenario is lost in the next. Additionally, the TOAW engine is a little dated at this point, and built around conventional warfare.
< Message edited by wodin -- 9/6/2016 6:16:01 PM >
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.
3W published "No Trumpets, No Drums" back in the 1980's. Some pretty innovative modelling concepts and quite playable in spite of an appalling selection of colours for the map and counters.
there was a strategy game from the 80's set in vietnam - NAM 1965-1975 - and you could play as POTUS Nixon or Johnson and must manage resources and public opinion, but it also had some campaign scenarios too as well as general war.
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/24/2009 From: Atlanta Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon
there was a strategy game from the 80's set in vietnam - NAM 1965-1975 - and you could play as POTUS Nixon or Johnson and must manage resources and public opinion, but it also had some campaign scenarios too as well as general war.
Funny. . . that's partially what prompted the question. I have that game, and I opened it up after years to sort the pieces into new trays and I basically asked, "Why can't I get this on computer?"
there was a strategy game from the 80's set in vietnam - NAM 1965-1975 - and you could play as POTUS Nixon or Johnson and must manage resources and public opinion, but it also had some campaign scenarios too as well as general war.
Funny. . . that's partially what prompted the question. I have that game, and I opened it up after years to sort the pieces into new trays and I basically asked, "Why can't I get this on computer?"
Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> Vietnam War game 
Vietnam War game - 
RE: Vietnam War game - 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread