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Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 3:21:55 AM

WriterJWA

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I thought I'd ask a general question of wargames and developers... Why hasn't a deeply detailed operational game every been made depicting the Vietnam War? I'm thinking on the level of a Gary Grigsby game, Command Ops, or the Flashpoint Series as an example. The closest I've seen is a long series of scenarios for The Operation Art Of War III called the Vietnam Combat Operations series (which is phenomenal if anyone hasn't seen it). There are a lot of variables and approaches to strategy on both sides of the DMZ that could make for some fantastic grognard-level wargaming, and I'm just wondering why it hasn't been approached.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 4:01:18 AM

charlie0311

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Hi Jay,

Saw your USMC/0311. Thought I'd send a little "Semper Fi Mac" along.

I was a replacement 0311, 3/5, RVN, Aug 67-Aug 68.

Retired now. I have GG WITE and two games going now. About all I can manage these days.

No answer for your RVN question.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 4:05:23 AM

Twotribes

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The Vietnam war was not a conventional affair. The struggle in South Vietnam revolved around guerilla tactics and suppression of same. In every stand up battle the US won hands down. That is pretty hard to depict in a game that is not tactical at level.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 4:14:44 AM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Hi Jay,

Saw your USMC/0311. Thought I'd send a little "Semper Fi Mac" along.

I was a replacement 0311, 3/5, RVN, Aug 67-Aug 68.

Retired now. I have GG WITE and two games going now. About all I can manage these days.

No answer for your RVN question.

3/5! Outstanding! Operation Swift??

I was 3/6. Semper Fi.

< Message edited by WriterJWA -- 9/6/2016 4:23:27 AM >

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 4:19:44 AM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The Vietnam war was not a conventional affair. The struggle in South Vietnam revolved around guerilla tactics and suppression of same. In every stand up battle the US won hands down. That is pretty hard to depict in a game that is not tactical at level.

I dunno if I agree, though. . . it's pretty well depicted at the boardgame level with Fire In The Lake (which is very popular) and the old VG game Vietnam 1965-1975. The latter was published in the mid-80's and is still played today. I can't help but think that if boardgame developers can pull it off with dice and charts, a computer game could master all that much faster and with broader scope.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 4:23:08 AM

Ranger33

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Probably not what you are wanting exactly, but have you ever seen Fire in the Lake from GMT Games? It's a board game in their COIN series that depicts the war in Vietnam. It's really quite excellent, though the combat is fairly abstract. You can play as the US, the VC, the NVA, or the ARVN. It can be played solo against AI bots or with other people of course. Probably the overall best Vietnam game of any type in recent years.

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For the record, the COIN series is totally amazing. PC wargames could learn a thing or two from these games when it comes to the question of how a "wargame" should depict the rest of the war outside of the combat itself.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 4:30:24 AM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

Probably not what you are wanting exactly, but have you ever seen Fire in the Lake from GMT Games? It's a board game in their COIN series that depicts the war in Vietnam. It's really quite excellent, though the combat is fairly abstract. You can play as the US, the VC, the NVA, or the ARVN. It can be played solo against AI bots or with other people of course. Probably the overall best Vietnam game of any type in recent years.

BGG Page

For the record, the COIN series is totally amazing. PC wargames could learn a thing or two from these games when it comes to the question of how a "wargame" should depict the rest of the war outside of the combat itself.

Yeah! I have A Distant Plain. I haven't played it yet, but I'm very familiar with the series. I agree game developers could learn a few things from the paper wargames in terms of overall game mechanics. As an aside, one game that could really make a great port into computer is the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War series.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 5:38:18 AM

charlie0311

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Delete

< Message edited by charlie0311 -- 9/6/2016 6:09:46 AM >

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 5:41:02 AM

Ranger33

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA
Yeah! I have A Distant Plain. I haven't played it yet, but I'm very familiar with the series. I agree game developers could learn a few things from the paper wargames in terms of overall game mechanics. As an aside, one game that could really make a great port into computer is the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War series.

Very cool! I also have A Distant Plain. I've set it up once but had to pack it up after playing the tutorial due to my wife urgently needing the table space. It definitely feels a bit "heavier" in tone given the much more contemporary subject matter. That said, I look forward to getting it back out soon and giving it a whirl. I also own Liberty or Death and Falling Sky, which are really fun experiences.

Playing the Romans in Falling Sky will really make you appreciate just how skillful Julius Caesar had to have been to conquer Gaul.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 12:53:48 PM

Yogi the Great

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I know not quite what you're looking for but have you seen this?

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 2:11:13 PM

WriterJWA

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I have, yeah. They're not bad, but a little one-dimensional and dated. I also don't think they really grasp the problems specific to Vietnam. It's almost like they could change the pieces and maps to a WWII setting and the game wouldn't change a bit.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 2:13:30 PM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

quote:

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA
Yeah! I have A Distant Plain. I haven't played it yet, but I'm very familiar with the series. I agree game developers could learn a few things from the paper wargames in terms of overall game mechanics. As an aside, one game that could really make a great port into computer is the Great Campaigns of the American Civil War series.

Very cool! I also have A Distant Plain. I've set it up once but had to pack it up after playing the tutorial due to my wife urgently needing the table space. It definitely feels a bit "heavier" in tone given the much more contemporary subject matter. That said, I look forward to getting it back out soon and giving it a whirl. I also own Liberty or Death and Falling Sky, which are really fun experiences.

Playing the Romans in Falling Sky will really make you appreciate just how skillful Julius Caesar had to have been to conquer Gaul.

Yeah, I worked through the tutorial and watched a few gameplay videos. It's looks rad as heck. I have the VASSAL module for it, and I've been meaning to run a solitaire play-through to get a better handle on it. I really want to pick up Fire In The Lake though. I really hope they take a crack at Iraq (2003-2011), too.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 2:20:07 PM

WriterJWA

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I keep thinking about all the possibilities with a Vietnam War operational-level game. Some of the things that would really cool to see represented:

-U.S. commitment levels and its effect on pacification, home front morale (and in turn troop morale).
-Development of the ARVN and its effectiveness in the face of a corrupt government.
-The logistical challenges in maintaining conventional and guerrilla forces in tropical and mountainous environments.
-Intelligence, either through SIGINT (via "McNamara's Line" and such), or HUMINT.
-The air campaign over N. Vietnam and its political ramifications.
-Multi-battalion airmobile and amphibious combat operations.

What else could be represented?

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 4:07:46 PM

wodin

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TOAWIII has a lot of Vietnam scenarios..including if I remember an extensive user made set.

When I was around 12\13 in the mid eighties I was obsessed with Vietnam after watching Apocalypse Now and reading The 13th Valley and Fields of Fire (13th Valley is still one of my favourite novels). I desperately wanted to talk to veterans about what they experienced. Living in the UK and obviously not internet it was an impossibility. I also used to get a magazine each month that came out around then about the war, had a poster on my wall of the country with major engagements etc on it. The Falklands had not long ago happened which I followed but it didn't grab my attention like the Vietnam War.

< Message edited by wodin -- 9/6/2016 6:16:57 PM >

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 4:44:56 PM

WriterJWA

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Both The 13th Valley and Fields of Fire are fantastic books! I've played the TOAWIII scenarios (I mention them in the first post). They're great, but they're not conjoined so all the progress I might gain in once scenario is lost in the next. Additionally, the TOAW engine is a little dated at this point, and built around conventional warfare.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 6:14:51 PM

wodin

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Dak To by E Murphy, Steel my soldiers hearts by D Hackworth and American Warrior by Doc Bahnsen are three superb memoirs and again up in my Top Twenty books.

Whoops sorry missed you mentioning TOAWIII:)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA

Both The 13th Valley and Fields of Fire are fantastic books! I've played the TOAWIII scenarios (I mention them in the first post). They're great, but they're not conjoined so all the progress I might gain in once scenario is lost in the next. Additionally, the TOAW engine is a little dated at this point, and built around conventional warfare.

< Message edited by wodin -- 9/6/2016 6:16:01 PM >

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 6:18:21 PM

wodin

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Decisive Campaign: Barbarossa engine with modifications could be a great engine to do Vietnam.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 6:27:52 PM

Kuokkanen

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Why Vietnam '65 has not been mentioned by now?

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 6:45:45 PM

lion_of_judah

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the North Vietnamese 1972 Easter offensive and the North Vietnamese offensive in 1975 were conventional in nature so those could be made.

< Message edited by lion_of_judah -- 9/6/2016 6:47:27 PM >

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 6:56:35 PM

Zorch

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SPI did Year of the Rat (operational 1972 offensive) and Search and Destroy (tactical) games back in the 70s.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9961/year-rat-vietnam-1972 and http://mapandcounters.blogspot.com/2010/01/spi-year-of-rat-1972.html

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8033/search-destroy and http://tacticalwargamer.com/boardgames/grunt/searchdestroy.htm

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 7:38:47 PM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Why Vietnam '65 has not been mentioned by now?

I've played Vietnam '65. It's a fun game, but hard to take seriously. It's in line with the HPS Simulation Squad Battles games. Fun... but shallow.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/6/2016 7:38:48 PM

Randomizer

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3W published "No Trumpets, No Drums" back in the 1980's. Some pretty innovative modelling concepts and quite playable in spite of an appalling selection of colours for the map and counters.

No Trumpets, No Drums

This was a frequent Saturday killer back in the day and the American/ARVN side never seemed to be able to win.

-C

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/7/2016 2:53:40 AM

WriterJWA

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Any speculation as to why this seems such an avoided subject for serious consideration?

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/7/2016 3:48:40 AM

Zorch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA

Any speculation as to why this seems such an avoided subject for serious consideration?

Asymmetrical warfare is hard to simulate. Winning battles is only part of the struggle.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/7/2016 11:36:03 AM

Agathosdaimon

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there was a strategy game from the 80's set in vietnam - NAM 1965-1975 - and you could play as POTUS Nixon or Johnson and must manage resources and public opinion, but it also had some campaign scenarios too as well as general war.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/7/2016 1:30:41 PM

wodin

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Fields of Fire solo board game has a Vietnam campaign, Volume 2 will have one aswell.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/7/2016 1:42:49 PM

wings7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA

Any speculation as to why this seems such an avoided subject for serious consideration?

This was a very unpopular war (from the US population) and it dragged on for over a decade...

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/7/2016 2:52:14 PM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Fields of Fire solo board game has a Vietnam campaign, Volume 2 will have one aswell.

Yeah, I have both of these pre-ordered. It doesn't look like GMT prints them until next summer, though.

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/7/2016 3:05:58 PM

WriterJWA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

there was a strategy game from the 80's set in vietnam - NAM 1965-1975 - and you could play as POTUS Nixon or Johnson and must manage resources and public opinion, but it also had some campaign scenarios too as well as general war.

Funny. . . that's partially what prompted the question. I have that game, and I opened it up after years to sort the pieces into new trays and I basically asked, "Why can't I get this on computer?"

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5620/vietnam-1965-1975

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RE: Vietnam War game - 9/7/2016 5:12:28 PM

Agathosdaimon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WriterJWA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

there was a strategy game from the 80's set in vietnam - NAM 1965-1975 - and you could play as POTUS Nixon or Johnson and must manage resources and public opinion, but it also had some campaign scenarios too as well as general war.

Funny. . . that's partially what prompted the question. I have that game, and I opened it up after years to sort the pieces into new trays and I basically asked, "Why can't I get this on computer?"

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5620/vietnam-1965-1975

lol, i actually only know of this as a computer game - i didnt know it was a board game.

The computer was i believe put out in 1991 by Domark

actually here is a page on it on the german site The Legacy, which catalogues pretty much all old games as some kind of museum of sorts
http://www.thelegacy.de/Museum/SQLFrameset.php3

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