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RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to Shoulder

 
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RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/11/2016 4:00:55 AM   
magi

 

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Quote Andrew......
" I'm moving TG Virginia due east, in a somewhat risky move, to bring them inshore as quickly as possible, in the hope that I can use their long-range SAMs to interfere with enemy air activity in that region. Other than that, no major changes."

I will be interested in how this works out.... I was thinking they might be at considerable risk.....


< Message edited by magi -- 9/11/2016 4:02:06 AM >

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 31
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/11/2016 11:37:20 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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3600 active units, simulation pulses taking 50-70ms for (probably) each game second.
Post #: 32
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/11/2016 11:38:25 AM   
Gunner98

 

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Grognerd

Nothing quite that fancy

When you go to game options, 2nd Tab, you can click on 'Show Diagnostics' and you get more info in the top bar of your screen.

AU = number of active units being handled by the game. This is everything from a static parking spot on an airfield to a SAM missile tracking a target. 3500 is very high, average game is below 1500. A year ago it was difficult to get any computer to run anything over 2000. Game engine improvements have really allowed the bigger scenarios to run quite well.

Pulse Time = the amount of time it takes for the game to process one second of play and is an indicator of how hard your working your computer. Don't really know what normal is but usually less than 20 although the number jumps around quite wildly sometimes.

This scenario is particularly large, some players like large games some don't. The Devs asked a few months ago if we could test out some big ones and I have a bad case of rampant scenario creep so this one evolved. In its original conception it was one scenario, but then I started breaking them apart to allow players and the game to manage them better. Coming full circle in this one but am ready to break it apart into two or three smaller chunks if need be.

B




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Post #: 33
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/11/2016 11:39:45 AM   
Gunner98

 

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Morning apache, I see we're on the same schedule

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 34
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/11/2016 11:51:35 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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It's evening here, hope we're not on the same schedule meaning you're starting the day with Sailor Jerry.

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 35
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/11/2016 12:19:33 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Ahhh, didn't notice the 'From' box . No Sailor Jerry here, just plenty of strong coffee. Hope all is well in Oz.

B

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 36
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/11/2016 3:02:22 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Ok

A few fixes to the points Kitchen Sink and AndrewJ.

Ver 1.2

-Restricted speed on some of the CAP missions
-Turned off the radars on escorting jammers
-Set up the MiG-31s so they fire and RTB
-Touched up a couple of the ASW missions

Thanks guys.

B

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(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 37
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 12:42:38 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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Harpoon was my gateway to this; but Harpoon was buggy, restrictive and very simple in many respects. The competing DBs and everything that went along with that took away from the experience too.

CMANO isn't for everyone, but if your username rings true I think you'll love it.

SquattingFrog in YouTube has some great videos with recent builds; some of the other videos on YT (while still great) look a bit dated with all the improvements to the sim.

Back on topic, Gunner I have a day to devote to CMANO today, I'll fire up your scen and give it a shot.
Post #: 38
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 2:24:42 AM   
magi

 

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Harpoon was cool.... this Command is quite brilliant really.....

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 39
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 4:11:06 AM   
Gunner98

 

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Started with Harpoon version 1, crash every 10 min or so. It got better but never even close to CMANO.

Best of luck Apache

B

< Message edited by Gunner98 -- 9/12/2016 4:12:29 AM >

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 40
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 6:46:14 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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Wow.

I jumped right in and played about an hour in and got my ass kicked. I was totally overwhelmed. But I also didn't properly read through the briefing or really have any concept of what I was doing.

I've re-started, and am now working out a (increasingly detailed) plan of attack.

As for feedback, the briefing is great. Because it's so in depth I've taken bits and pieces and made my own briefing/tasking document using OneNote.

The pre-set missions are a huge help. Without them I think the scen might be too intimidating for me.

Finally; this is probably just me, but I have terrible luck when I use large AAW missions. Any recommendations? (i.e. intercepts vs AAW patrols, WRA settings, flight sizes, etc)

At this point I'm probably about 2 hours into pre-game setup, having run the sim for about 30 game seconds to pick up initial contacts. I'm about 50% on my battle plan / setup, but as I said I'm being pretty finicky about it this time through.

Overall a very cool scenario to play; something on this scale was unthinkable a year ago. Great work.

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 41
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 10:06:23 AM   
wild_Willie2


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Yeah, gunners briefings tend to bit on the long side, a short synopsis of the mission goals at the end of the briefing might actually be a good idea ;)

W.



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(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 42
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 3:29:33 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

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So I played for an hour and 45 mins of game time; the losses so far:

NATO

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
25x F-16A Falcon
14x F-15C Eagle
8x F-16A Falcon
24x F-16CG Blk 40 Falcon
5x F-14A Tomcat
2x F-16AM Falcon MLU
1x FFG 7 Oliver Hazard Perry
13x F-14A Tomcat
15x F/A-18D Hornet
1x Harrier GR.7
1x Jaguar GR.1A
2x A/C Hangar (4x Medium Aircraft)
2x A/C Hangar (4x Large Aircraft)
1x A/C Hangar (2x Very Large Aircraft)
3x F-5A Freedom Fighter
2x Sea King Mk43
7x F/A-18A Hornet
3x Tornado GR.1
1x Sea Harrier FA.2
1x Vehicle (NH Target Tracking Radar (TTR))
1x Vehicle (NH Missile Tracking Radar (MTR))
1x Vehicle (NH Target Ranging Radar (TRR))
1x Vehicle (AN/FPS-71 HIPAR)
1x Vehicle (NH LOPAR)
1x FFG 36 Underwood [Perry Class]
6x F-8P Crusader [Le Crouze]
12x F-4G Phantom II [Wild Weasel V]
5x F-15E Strike Eagle
3x F-14B Tomcat
3x RF-5A Freedom Fighter
8x F/A-18C Hornet
6x F-5B Freedom Fighter
3x E-2C Hawkeye Group I
1x Lynx Mk86


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
42x AN/SSQ-62B DICASS
34x AN/SSQ-53D DIFAR
47x SSQ-963A CAMBS III
44x AN/SSQ-53B DIFAR
5x TSM 8050A Active RO
4x Mk50 Barracuda Mod 0 ALWT
5x Mk46 NEARTIP Mod 5
104x AIM-7M Sparrow III
143x AIM-120A AMRAAM
381x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
46x AIM-9L Sidewinder
8x AIM-9N Sidewinder
52x AIM-9M Sidewinder
101x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
74x MIM-14B Nike Hercules
130x AIM-54C Phoenix
16x AIM-120B AMRAAM
8x RGM-109C Tomahawk Blk II TLAM-C
27x 20mm/85 M61A1 Vulcan Burst [100 rnds]
44x AIM-7P Sparrow III
25x AGM-88B HARM
18x AGM-62B Walleye II ER/DL
8x Mk18 1000lb RET
3x AJ.168 Martel
76x CRV-7 C14 70mm Rocket
12x Mk13 1000lb GPB
11x CPU-123 Paveway II LGB
8x CBU-87/B CEM [202 x BLU-97/B Dual-Purpose Bomblets]
16x Mk20 Rockeye II CB [247 x Mk118 Dual Purpose Bomblets]
32x Mk83 1000lb LDGP
7x Generic Chaff Salvo [8x Cartridges]
6x Generic Flare Salvo [4x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
70x RIM-67C SM-2ER Blk II
116x RIM-66M-1 SM-2MR Blk III
14x RIM-66H SM-2MR Blk II
3x RIM-66E SM-1MR Blk VI
1x RIM-7M Sea Sparrow
2x 20mm/85 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 0 Burst [200 rnds]
2x 76mm/62 Compact HE Burst [4 rnds]
4x Mk82 500lb LDGP
5x AGM-65D Maverick IR

WP

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x PLA-971M Akula II [Shchuka-B]
1x PLA-945A Sierra II [Kondor]
52x Su-27S Flanker B
13x MiG-29S Fulcrum C
17x MiG-31 Foxhound
21x MiG-23MLD Flogger K
1x Radar (Flat Face B [P-19])
1x PLA-971 Akula I [Shchuka-B]
15x MiG-27M Flogger J
3x Radar (Snow Drift [9S18M1])
8x SA-11 Gadfly [9A38] TELAR
4x SA-11 Gadfly [9A39] LLV
1x Radar (Long Track [P-40])
4x MiG-25RBS Foxbat D
9x SA-6a Gainful [2P25] TEL
3x Vehicle (Straight Flush [1S91])
4x SA-8b Gecko Mod-1 [9A33BM3] TELAR
38x MiG-23ML Flogger G
1x Radar (Spoon Rest D [P-18])
4x SA-15b Gauntlet [9A331] TELAR
2x Building (Control Tower)
5x Ammo Revetment
9x MiG-25BM Foxbat F
10x Su-24M Fencer D
7x MiG-25PDS Foxbat E
6x Su-24M Fencer D
1x PLARK-670M Charlie II [Skat-M]
1x Su-24MP Fencer F
1x Su-24MR Fencer E
4x Su-25 Frogfoot A


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
15x Generic Acoustic Decoy
2x MG-114 Berilly
109x AA-10 Alamo C [R-27RE, LR SARH]
158x AA-10 Alamo A [R-27R, MR SARH]
234x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
55x Generic Flare Salvo [4x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
66x AA-11 Archer [R-73]
2x 65-76A Kit WH
36x SA-5c Gammon [5V28M5]
175x SA-11 Gadfly [9M38M1]
74x AA-9 Amos [R-33, SARH]
41x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
22x AA-10 Alamo D [R-27TE, LR IR]
116x SA-6a Gainful [9M336]
39x AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH]
13x AA-10 Alamo E [R-27P, MR ARM]
54x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
21x Generic Flare Salvo [2x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
26x AA-8 Aphid [R-60TM]
66x SA-15b Gauntlet [9M331]
111x SA-8b Gecko Mod-1 [9M33M3]
6x 23mm Gsh-6-23 [50 rnds]
12x SA-10b Grumble [5V55R]
32x AS-14 Kedge [Kh-29L]
37x 30mm Gsh-6-30 Burst [50 rnds]
9x SA-12a Gladiator [9M83]
7x AA-7 Apex E [R-24MR, SARH]
17x AA-6 Acrid F [R-40TD1, IR]
150x BetAB-500SP CB [12 x Anti-Runway Penetrator Bomblets]
3x AA-7 Apex D [R-24T, IR]
16x 23mm Gsh-23L Burst [40 rnds]
8x AS-17 Krypton C [Kh-31P, ARM]
42x AS-18 Kazoo A [Kh-59M]
8x SS-N-9 Siren [P-120 Malakhit]
72x AS-11 Kilter [Kh-58U, ARM, Semi-Ballistic]
39x 30mm Gsh-30-1 Burst [30 rnds]
5x AA-6 Acrid D [R-40TD, IR]
6x AA-6 Acrid C [R-40RD, SARH]
2x FAB-500M-62 GPB
24x FAB-250M-62 GPB

A lot of my aircraft were destroyed on the ground. I'm also noticing that while I'm watching, for example a strike on one of those small airports, there is a badger raid going on to the north against TF21 and I'm not really noticing because of the speed everything happens in the message log (this is in 1-1 time).

I did manage to get some good strikes in against Sogndal and Sandane using SEAD, OECM and other escorts. I also tried a half-assed attack on Nordberg which was a bit of a disaster.

At the moment I feel like I'm not doing well, but looking at the amount of opposition I'm facing I don't know if I can do much better. Given that a lot of my assets are relatively safe, I may just have to accept the losses in Norway and keep going. Writing this, I am considering withdrawing to RAF Leuchars but I know that there's no logistic support there, so my aircraft will be one-shot wonders from there on.

I will play a bit further tomorrow and hopefully see some improvements in my performance.

(in reply to wild_Willie2)
Post #: 43
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 4:49:29 PM   
JPFisher55

 

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I played the first version for the whole 2 days and won a Triumph. It was fun. It played reasonably fast on my computer which is a quad core AMD 4130 processor with 8 mg RAM.
The Soviet bombers never showed up because I shot down all the recon planes so they never found my ships.
Since I like very large scenarios, I have modified version 2 with a few reinforcement planes for NATO, lots of reinforcement planes for WP and have changed, or added, some WP missions.
While I do like Gunner's scenarios, I prefer to set my own missions for my side, so I deleted the NATO missions. After I play this modified scenario, I'll let you know how it played and find out if anyone wants a copy.

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 44
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 5:06:01 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Apache

Thanks for the report. I may have moved TF-21 in too close if the Badger attacks are happening that quickly. Please let me know how it goes.

I was planning on putting some basic ordinance at Leuchars, just missed it. If you do evacuate feel free to add some Aim-7, 9 & 120s probably about 200 each, just the American stuff - the Norgies would only pull out in extremes I think so probably wouldn't pre-position.

Based on memory (at work) you've chewed through about 2/3ds of the Su-27 in the south. There are a few more in the north but the opposition in the south should be weakening by now.

How'd the FFGs die? Torpedo or missile?

B

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 45
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 8:29:34 PM   
Meiktila

 

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I've been going through the CS Pack playing anything with max complexity and have been looking for a new challenge.

I just found it <<insert weird youtube vid of cat lapping cream here>>

Do you have an update soon or should I plough into the 1.1?

Like you JPFisher, the bigger they are the better for me!

BTW thanks for all your great NF scenarios Gunner98, the first six cured me of the need to win. It is possible to get your ass kicked gracefully.

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 46
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 8:49:36 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Meiktila

Ver 1.2 is at post 38. I'll put it in the original post when I get home.

Glad your liking them. I think its only fair that since we win the war the bad guy should win a few battles

Enjoy

B

V1.2 now in Original post

< Message edited by Gunner98 -- 9/12/2016 10:34:09 PM >

(in reply to Meiktila)
Post #: 47
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/12/2016 8:54:55 PM   
Meiktila

 

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great - I'll download and play through 1.2!

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 48
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/14/2016 5:29:16 AM   
magi

 

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well... i have spent many hours going over this scenario.... and i must say i am quite impressed at the scope and the amount of work you have put into this thing.... the grand scale of it gives some feeling of the magnitude of power.. intensity and destruction of an event of this nature...

while i am pleased and impressed with the narrative quality of the briefing... i am having some difficulty comprehending it all.. though i will concede the issue may rest with me... and on studying it is becoming more illuminated...

there are only a couple of things that make me uncomfortable at the beginning here...
the positioning of TG 20 is unsettling and seems imprudent as being at great risk with a compressed battle space to start a fight with impeding its ability to defend in depth... i moved the the group to the south west 100nm or so...
there seems to be a weak defensive posture in the south... many bases lacking any kind of ad and a small number of air defenders on patrol...

i am just beginning to put a plan together... i believe the red ad in the trondheim area are going to make things more complicated...

oh well... tally ho....


< Message edited by magi -- 9/14/2016 5:32:10 AM >

(in reply to Meiktila)
Post #: 49
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/14/2016 10:33:56 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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Had another go today; I did marginally better in terms of inflicting losses on the enemy. My own losses were just as high as before at the 2 hour game time mark.

This time around I launched an immediate TLAM strike on enemy bases at Orland, Andoya, Bodo, Vaernes, Evenes, Sandane and Sogndal. Sandane and Sogndal were essentially wiped out; Andoya suffered some decent losses, Orland took a bit of damage, but the rest emerged essentially unscathed. Each base had ~50 TLAMS assigned, and where possible I followed them in with a two-ship of Prowlers (although had to RTB early in the north due to AAW threats). I don't think there's too many TLAMS, as even with these strikes I was still getting swamped with enemy AC for the entire two hours of game time that I played (which took the better part of an afternoon).

Again, lost two FFGs. One to a torpedo from a Sierra closing on TF21, and another to Sunburn missiles from a Kilo near TF Virginia.

My air-to-air capability in southern Norway is essentially gone; I have some F-15Cs coming online in about 45 mins but I feel that they'll get shot up pretty quickly if past experience is anything to go by. In any event, the runways at Fliesland, Rygge, and Gardermoen are out of comission. Speaking of Gardermoen, nearly all the AC there have been destroyed either in the air or on the ground.

To attempt to protect the above mentioned airbases I reinforced the south of Norway with F-14s and F/A-18s from Eisenhower and Vinson; which for the most part got themselves killed.

In the north, TF20 is having a hard time of it with constant sub threats and air raids. In the past 40 minutes I've taken attacks from badgers and backfires, as well as defending against a horde of foxbats and foxhounds. I am down to sparrow-armed F/A-18s to defend TF20, although the AEGIS CGs have been working overtime and doing a fantastic job. I may detach one along with some escorts and send it between TF20 and Norway to act as a SAM trap.

TF Algonquin is prosecuting it's second or third sub, an Alfa. So far no losses here. Clemenceau is recovering the Entendards I sent to strike Jan Mayen after having a TARPS bird from Eisenhower do an overflight. There doesn't seem to be an awful lot on Jan Mayen, I'm wondering if Clemenceau could be of more use back east. TF De Ruyter is attempting ASW ops to the east of Jan Mayen but not being awfully effective apart from drawing torpedo fire.

I made a few changes to starting loadouts this time around; any AAW loadout was changed to 'heavy' AMRAAMS where possible. It seems like 70%+ of the a/c going up to fight the enemy are not coming back, so I figure conservation of ammo is not a big deal for the first few hours. This seemed to work better in the early phases. Also anything equipped with LGBs was given a new loadout, as the cloud ceiling is 10,000ft which coupled with the altitude of a lot of my targets has made using them quite micro-intensive--fine for my usual playstyle, but not possible in the least in a scenario this size.

So far I've held off strike operations with Invincible and Ark Royal, as the TLAM strike took out their initial targets. I did use the sea-harriers from whichever of those groups is closes to reinforce the Bergen CAP, and they made it back unscathed after killing a few MiGs.

As magi predicts above, the red AD has been a thorn in my side despite a 'SEAD Surge' of all HARM shooters in Southern Norway at the start of the mission to thin them out. They are slowing down now, but I suspect it's due to a lack of ammo rather than being silenced per-se.

So far the losses are:

24x F-16A Falcon
12x F-15C Eagle
16x F-16CG Blk 40 Falcon
10x F-16A Falcon
5x F-14A Tomcat
11x F-14A Tomcat
2x F-16AM Falcon MLU
15x F-4G Phantom II [Wild Weasel V]
2x Vehicle (NH Target Ranging Radar (TRR))
2x Vehicle (NH Target Tracking Radar (TTR))
2x Vehicle (NH Missile Tracking Radar (MTR))
5x F-14B Tomcat
2x F-14D Tomcat
2x A/C Hangar (4x Medium Aircraft)
2x A/C Hangar (4x Large Aircraft)
5x F-5A Freedom Fighter
3x Sea King Mk43
8x F-15E Strike Eagle
35x F/A-18C Hornet
2x Vehicle (AN/FPS-71 HIPAR)
1x Vehicle (NH LOPAR)
1x Lynx Mk86
4x Jaguar GR.3
2x Nike Hercules 3-Missile Lnchr Complex
3x RF-5A Freedom Fighter
8x F/A-18A Hornet
7x F-14B Tomcat
1x A/C Hangar (2x Very Large Aircraft)
1x SH-60B Seahawk
2x FFG 36 Underwood [Perry Class]
1x E-2C Hawkeye Group I
2x SH-2F Seasprite

SIDE: WP
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x PLA-945A Sierra II [Kondor]
51x Su-27S Flanker B
1x Radar (Long Track [P-40])
1x PLA-971M Akula II [Shchuka-B]
19x MiG-29S Fulcrum C
34x MiG-31 Foxhound
84x MiG-23MLD Flogger K
3x Radar (Snow Drift [9S18M1])
38x MiG-23ML Flogger G
31x MiG-27M Flogger J
5x Ammo Revetment
1x PLA-971 Akula I [Shchuka-B]
4x SA-11 Gadfly [9A38] TELAR
2x SA-11 Gadfly [9A39] LLV
1x Su-25 Frogfoot A
1x PLA-671RTMK Victor III [Shchuka]
2x Tu-22MR Backfire C
17x MiG-25PDS Foxbat E
4x SA-6a Gainful [2P25] TEL
1x Vehicle (Straight Flush [1S91])
1x Radar (Flat Face B [P-19])
2x SA-15b Gauntlet [9A331] TELAR
18x Su-24M Fencer D
22x MiG-25BM Foxbat F
14x Su-24M Fencer D
4x Tu-16P Badger L
3x SA-18 Grouse [9K38 Igla] MANPADS
2x 23mm ZU-23-2
6x 152mm/48 2A36 Giatsint-B Towed Howitzer
1x Su-24MR Fencer E
1x MiG-25RBS Foxbat D
1x PLARK-670M Charlie II [Skat-M]

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 50
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/14/2016 7:52:52 PM   
magi

 

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Geezzzz...... The loses are staggering..... But it does confirm my assessment to some degree..... I can see there is a "use it or loose it" doctrine I will have to adapt... That is against my usual nature that I will have to use... I usually like to start slower to get a feel of the situation.... but that's not going to happen with this one....

I also have made some changes... Those listed previously... and upgraded many loadouts to heavy... added some hawk batteries to support the nike 's... All formations starting at creep... Which I usually do..... I have changed and spread most of the ASW platforms in the formations with nothing out to far from cover... and modifying screening patrol zones.... and I modified the Norwegian AI f18 patrol zone to the north in the perceived threat area....

My plan for now is to... Defend in the north for now.... and in the south to put almost all ready oecm aircraft and defenders/interceptors into the air.... aggressively attack the ad's and radar in the Trondheim area......

I'm going to get back after it here and see what comes of it....... Just looking at this thing and analyzing the situation has been very engaging..... But very much like work.... very cool work....

I don't know how my computer will handle this thing... Just saving takes a moment..... I will probably have to turn a number of features off.... Darn....

< Message edited by magi -- 9/14/2016 7:58:24 PM >

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 51
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/14/2016 8:13:52 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline
Appreciate the reports. I am going to change up a few things, but will leave it until the weekend before I do so you can have a chance to play it out a bit:

-I'm going to change out the Eisenhower, substitute in the Nimitz which has a stronger BG and in line with my overall story should be making an appearance about now.
-Will add an A-10 Sqn to the mix in Southern Norway
-Going to remove the Cdn F-18 Sqn completely. Add in a couple messages about how the battle in Denmark is going
-Changing up the story a bit. Just background but the Bde from the 82nd will already be in place. Just changes up the briefing and I see an opportunity for a smaller scenario earlier to bring it into a little more permissive environment
-Going to pull TF 20.1 further south
-Going to pull the two ASW SAGs & Clemenceau back to Iceland and have them doing the approach to Jan Mayan
-Will add another Tornado F.3 Sqn and another F-16 Sqn into Scotland
-Will slow down the southern push from the Soviets a bit
-Pulling TF 20.1 further south should delay the Bear/backfire strikes
-Might put the ANG F-4 Wing in play. You saw them in 'Hot Tamales' and they are destined for Norway but the problem in space so they will be operating out of the UK with tankers
-Will consider adding the ANG A-7 wing as well, like the F-4s they will end up in Norway but was thinking a little later on.
-What I think is really needed is anther Sqn of F-15s but the shelves are bare. Unless.... I have an idea! Remnants of the two Sqns you have played with before: 57FS out of Iceland and 493rd out of Lakenheath who showed up in Iceland on the first day, will combine and join the fight - total about 20 AC but over 50% aces.

That might tip the balance a little in the player's favour. Let me know what you think please. Will the F-4s just be Alamo bait at this stage? Perhaps I need to make it smaller not larger. hmmm

Thanks again

B

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 52
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/14/2016 8:35:15 PM   
Meiktila

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 8/1/2016
Status: offline
Typical NF!





Attachment (1)

(in reply to magi)
Post #: 53
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/14/2016 8:36:35 PM   
Meiktila

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 8/1/2016
Status: offline
and SOUTH




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(in reply to Meiktila)
Post #: 54
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/15/2016 12:15:43 AM   
Ferret69

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/10/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Appreciate the reports. I am going to change up a few things, but will leave it until the weekend before I do so you can have a chance to play it out a bit:

-I'm going to change out the Eisenhower, substitute in the Nimitz which has a stronger BG and in line with my overall story should be making an appearance about now.
-Will add an A-10 Sqn to the mix in Southern Norway
-Going to remove the Cdn F-18 Sqn completely. Add in a couple messages about how the battle in Denmark is going
-Changing up the story a bit. Just background but the Bde from the 82nd will already be in place. Just changes up the briefing and I see an opportunity for a smaller scenario earlier to bring it into a little more permissive environment
-Going to pull TF 20.1 further south
-Going to pull the two ASW SAGs & Clemenceau back to Iceland and have them doing the approach to Jan Mayan
-Will add another Tornado F.3 Sqn and another F-16 Sqn into Scotland
-Will slow down the southern push from the Soviets a bit
-Pulling TF 20.1 further south should delay the Bear/backfire strikes
-Might put the ANG F-4 Wing in play. You saw them in 'Hot Tamales' and they are destined for Norway but the problem in space so they will be operating out of the UK with tankers
-Will consider adding the ANG A-7 wing as well, like the F-4s they will end up in Norway but was thinking a little later on.
-What I think is really needed is anther Sqn of F-15s but the shelves are bare. Unless.... I have an idea! Remnants of the two Sqns you have played with before: 57FS out of Iceland and 493rd out of Lakenheath who showed up in Iceland on the first day, will combine and join the fight - total about 20 AC but over 50% aces.

That might tip the balance a little in the player's favour. Let me know what you think please. Will the F-4s just be Alamo bait at this stage? Perhaps I need to make it smaller not larger. hmmm

Thanks again

B


Having not played the scenario too much (I've basically looked around the starting setup and played about 15 mins) I can't really say much on game balance but I can give some theoretical effects.

Moving the Nimitz in seems fine as I can't imagine NATO sending lower-quality units for a mission like this.
The A-10's I feel might end up dying en masse in the battle for Southern Norway if only because of the amount of Red missiles that they would have to contend with even with the slow-down of the Soviet push south.
Story changes looks good.
With the TF's being pulled South the player may have a chance to get ready for the inevitable Red ASuW strike, not sure how this will affect the battle.
On the ANG forces:
F-4's: I just don't see them being anything but annihilated by the MiG hordes, if you were to introduce any F-4's they'd have to be something like the German F-4 KWS but I can't see the Bonn government allowing any Luftwaffe units off the line unless the battle for Germany is going really well.
A-7: It might work but then again it's quite possible that they could meet the same end as the A-10's.
The composite F-15 squadron sounds like a very interesting asset and I'm curious to how people well use it.

Ferret.

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 55
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/15/2016 4:17:56 AM   
AndrewJ

 

Posts: 2318
Joined: 1/5/2014
Status: offline
Finally, a chance to play again! I'm continuing with V1.1.

The southern push of the massive Soviet air strike into Norway continues, with what looks (at first) like an endless river flowing south. After a while, however, the discrete streams and groups start to become apparent. The largest attacks are focused on the Oslo area, and I use up most of my remaining long-range missiles engaging the Su-27s that precede the attack. Once those foes are gone (shot down or retiring with empty missile rails) all my AIM-9 carrying planes have a much better time of it, grievously wounding the incoming Su-24s and Mig-27s with missile and cannon fire. As each enemy falls my confidence grows, since I can deal with them before they reach the airbases, until some of the Su-24s remind me that they carry ARMs, and I lose a good surveillance radar and one of my Nike sites is put out of action. Even so, I manage to keep the Soviets out of my Oslo airbases (for now).

Over on the Bergen side the reinforcements flowing in from the carriers and the UK prove to be crucial. F-14s from the Ike and the Vinson make landfall between Sandane and Orland, half way up the coast, managing to push aside the Mig-23s there with their shorter range missiles, while sending Phoenixes up into the approaching Su-24s. Getting out again proves to be a bit more difficult than getting in, but the damage to the raid is worth it, and it gives my more southerly fighters a chance to arrive and form up. As this is happening some of my HARM shooters take on the surveillance radars near Sandal and Sondagne, with modest success, and then line up to use their AMRAAMs in the defence of Flesland. Good thing too, as those two airfields surge a swarm of Mig-23s which soak up many of my missiles before they are contained. Next to arrive are the remainder of the western Su-24s, fat and happy at medium altitude. I'm sure I can handle that, until they launch their Kazoos just before I can get to them, dammit, and yet more of my missiles get used up shooting their missiles, while most of the Su-24s turn about and head safely back north. After that comes the toughest target of all, a pack of indestructible Mig-29s, nimbly dodging, jamming, and chaffing every missile that heads their way, and then dropping to radar-elusive rock-hopping height, all the while flinging a cloud of AA-11s at me. I'm down to the bare bottom of the missile barrel, and I don't have room to fall back and regroup, because the enemy's nearly on top of their target. It's not until I wake up and figure out that I can go over the clouds while they go under, thus hiding from their IR AAMs, and then come down behind them that I manage to defeat the raid, but it's literally down to cannon fire for the last half dozen or so. (Through all of this the TG Virginia is still too far out to sea to contribute any SAM support.)

Another two eight-ship Mig-29 raids also appear in the Oslo area (possibly heading for my troops?), but they are isolated and don't have other fighter support, so I'm able to skirt their missile range and sweep around behind them and defeat them with my short-ranged missile planes.

So at the moment it looks like I've fought off the threat to the south, and I may have some breathing space there, which is good because I currently have four (4) planes ready with long-ranged missiles in all of allied Norway... AWACS tells me they're picking up an intermittent stream of Su-27s on course for the Bergen area. Another raid or a coincidence? Should I try and make a HARM sweep while the skies are mostly empty, or wait for my escorts to reform? Hmmm...

While all this is going on I've slowed most of my surface groups down to creep speed, listening intently, and I think this is saving my ships in this heavy sub-infested water. Several more Soviet subs are detected, mostly by towed arrays, and then prosecuted by helicopters and Alizes, bringing the total sunk up to 6, including one each by TG De Ruyter and TG Algonquin. The most alarming is when SSMs start erupting out of the water E of TG20, just as an air battle is heating up overhead. "OMG, Oscar, Oscar!" wails the admiral, until his bridge crew point out the missiles are too slow and too few. Some of the launching fighters dip down and neatly intercept the missiles before they get much further, and an S-3 is sent to deal with the Charlie.

The northern air battle is very interesting. I've got the indications of a large formation of Mig-31s forming up, but I've also got that arc of jammers stretching from Norway to Svalbard that's got me really nervous. What's lurking behind that electronic cloud-bank, while I'm distracted by looking at Norway? I've sent some F-14s with tanker support up to investigate, and they meet a pair of very dangerous recce Backfires heading my way. Fortunately I manage to get those, and a few of the Badger jammers and ELINT planes too, before exchanging missiles with some Mig-31s and withdrawing. No signs of bombers up there - yet.

The main Mig-31 force that has me so alarmed now has a large number of extra contacts up very high, but remaining radar silent, which can only mean Mig-25s, as well as numerous high powered Badger surveillance radars. This isn't a raid, it's a heavy recce! If they can escort those recce Badgers in, or the Mig-25s dash past met, then I'll have no end of angry visitors. I'm launching plenty of F-14s and AMRAAM F-18s by this point, backed with jammers, and I'm able to meet the Mig-31s with a heavy barrage of Phoenixes. They shoot back, but the exchange is solidly in my favour, and while it's going on I'm able to put Sparrows and AMRAAMs into the Mig-25s, which are reasonably easy targets. Of course while all this is going on the Badgers are getting closer and closer, and by the time I'm able to deal with them the last of them has gotten close enough that it may have just gotten a contact on part of the task group. Hopefully the pair of jammers between the Badgers and TG20 were enough to fuzz the radar and prevent a clean hit.

I think my situation in TG20 is reasonably good for the moment. While I'm low on ready Phoenixes (8 planes) I have plenty of AMRAAM and Sparrow carriers ready to go. However, I'm seeing another raid building up over northern Norway, of half a dozen Mig-31s and a dozen Mig-25s (fighters this time, not Weasels, so they'll be shooting back now). Is this an actual bomber escort this time? Or a response to my provocations in the Svalbard gap? Maybe it's time to get more F-14s airborne...


Very interesting scenario this! I'm really enjoying the scope and scale of it, and I'm glad you haven't cut it up into segments. Despite the unit count it seems to run smoothly enough, even on my old machine, so no worries in that regard.


Misc comments:

The recce Badgers and Mig-25 Weasels both have OECM, but were not using it. Since they're coming in with radars on they're not hiding, so they might as well have the OECM on too. It should definitely help with the Sparrows, and may delay other engagements too.

The later Mig-29 raids might benefit if they were 6-ships with a pair of escorts, just to keep these isolated raids from being encircled and taken down from behind.


(in reply to Ferret69)
Post #: 56
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/15/2016 9:14:43 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98
-I'm going to change out the Eisenhower, substitute in the Nimitz which has a stronger BG and in line with my overall story should be making an appearance about now.
-Will add an A-10 Sqn to the mix in Southern Norway
-Going to remove the Cdn F-18 Sqn completely. Add in a couple messages about how the battle in Denmark is going
-Changing up the story a bit. Just background but the Bde from the 82nd will already be in place. Just changes up the briefing and I see an opportunity for a smaller scenario earlier to bring it into a little more permissive environment
-Going to pull TF 20.1 further south
-Going to pull the two ASW SAGs & Clemenceau back to Iceland and have them doing the approach to Jan Mayan
-Will add another Tornado F.3 Sqn and another F-16 Sqn into Scotland
-Will slow down the southern push from the Soviets a bit
-Pulling TF 20.1 further south should delay the Bear/backfire strikes
-Might put the ANG F-4 Wing in play. You saw them in 'Hot Tamales' and they are destined for Norway but the problem in space so they will be operating out of the UK with tankers
-Will consider adding the ANG A-7 wing as well, like the F-4s they will end up in Norway but was thinking a little later on.
-What I think is really needed is anther Sqn of F-15s but the shelves are bare. Unless.... I have an idea! Remnants of the two Sqns you have played with before: 57FS out of Iceland and 493rd out of Lakenheath who showed up in Iceland on the first day, will combine and join the fight - total about 20 AC but over 50% aces.

That might tip the balance a little in the player's favour. Let me know what you think please. Will the F-4s just be Alamo bait at this stage? Perhaps I need to make it smaller not larger. hmmm

Thanks again

B


Changes look good; looking forward to a chance to play with some A-10s. I think in reality they'd be there given the ground situation. They will be vulnerable to the red IADS, however there's plenty of Wild Weasel and HARM coverage to use them effectively.

Removing the CF-18s seems a good choice, they didn't add much to the fight. Just made me wish I had control of them when things were getting tight

Moving TF20.1 further south as well as moving Clemenceau / ASW SAGs back a bit seems like good changes, at the moment TF20.1 is under the pump immediately on scen start, and the other groups are practically on station. Moving them back would add a bit of 'breathing room'; which I think is particularly important in a scen this size.

I agree the F-4s and A-7s will probably get mauled; however in my playthroughs it's not been a case of soviet air being of superior quality, it's by far the superior numbers that are hurting. Also, after the initial surge of soviet a/c most of the more dangerous red a/c were tapering off. This is where I think the F-4s and A-7s would actually be quite useful, going up against MiG-23's and strike targets following the first wave of strikes and SEAD.

An extra Sqn of F-15Cs would make a huge difference, possibly having more ready at scenario start would help too.

Overall I think moving the TF back and slowing down the southern push from the soviets will make a huge difference to difficulty and enjoyment.

WRT weather, I noticed some Red a/c circling bases possibly attempting to drop LGBs (circling for a very long time not dropping any ordinance; MiG-29s IIRC). Would you consider raising the cloud base or is the weather important for balance/story?

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 57
RE: New BIG scenario for testing - NF 13.1 Shoulder to ... - 9/15/2016 10:57:34 AM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline
Thanks for the reports and feedback guys. Glad your enjoying this one. Lots to consider.

WRT to the weather, it is fairly important to the story line for the next two scenarios, and although I could wave it away in this one it seems unrealistic. Better I think to adjust the starting loadouts to both sides to be more adaptable would be better. Its a really good point, I'll need to configure the next couple a little better.

Appreciate the advice.

B

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 58
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