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- 4/17/2003 5:45:14 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kungfucheez
[B]what are you getting mad at me for?!?!?!! All i said was O.K wow what point have we reached when someone gets mad at another person for saying "O.K" really, have we reached this low people? [/B][/QUOTE]

The smiley was suppose to let you know I was being sarcastic. Though with all the mesh of personalities and international cultures on here whats obvious to one person or group certainly may not be to another.

I am truly sorry.

I think its great to see new users on the forum and wish more people would speak up, even if just to say ok, rather than sit idley by and say nothing at all.

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Post #: 61

- 4/17/2003 5:45:17 AM

Ludovic Coval

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Toulon, France
Status: offline

Veldor,

[QUOTE]HEHE. Yes you are correct FPG is written in Delphi, but MFC is something different.[/QUOTE]

Hum...well, as Battlefields! developer I already know what MFC is...;)

LC

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 62

- 4/17/2003 5:53:31 AM

kungfucheez

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/4/2003
Status: offline

lol well , sorry on my part, little misunderstanding. Do you guys have any suggestion on what i can do cause im extremely bored, and cant seem to find anything that intrest me :(

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 63

- 4/17/2003 5:55:59 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ludovic Coval
[B]Veldor,

Hum...well, as Battlefields! developer I already know what MFC is...;)

LC [/B][/QUOTE]

That's cool. So if you don't mind then, let me ask you a few questions:

1. Why did you choose to make Battlefields! an MFC application?
2. Why did you choose C++ and not Java, VB, or Fortran? :)
3. Are you using DirectX also for the game? How is that working out if so?
4. If not using DirectX how do you plan to accomplish things such as Network-Based Play (Or is Battlefields PBEM only?)?

I'm rather curious on those points.

Thanks!

_____________________________

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Post #: 64

- 4/17/2003 6:15:02 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

Hmm I don't have a problem with you Veldor, but sometimes you sound like someone from one side of the political fence convinced that the otherside "just doesn't get it" :)

As I said, some call me elitist based on the premise my being capable of playing ASL, and capable of speaking about it competently, clearly makes me an uncooperative ASL fanatic (as it is assumed to be able to play ASL you have to be fanatical, and hence a fanatic)

I too, don't think ASL automatically is the best game ever made. It is the best game of it's type ever made maybe (remember I said maybe), but I can find you all sorts of "best game ever" contenders.

Before the computer, you either wanted to wargame or not.
It was not an old farts hobby, it is just that a lot of guys that played have not stopped aging.

I don't think most elements of classic board games are sacred either. But occasionally trying to re invent the wheel, only results in mess.
As the old saying goes, if it isn't broke...

I wonder where computer wargaming would be today, if say 5 years ago, programmers instead of producing detailed 3d graphics, had decided the visual representation of wargames was adequate, and designers had become obsessed with more innovative AI concepts.

I know people that won't play anything but Everquest. My friend made me a set of the cds, and is driving me nuts to get me to play the game. He is insisting on me using one of his many Accounts, in the hope I will get dragged in.

But running around endlessly hacking things is quite dull sounding. They can't hope to make EQ good enough "looking" to make something that sounds dull exciting.

Then there is Combat Mission. I had another friend that claimed quite confidently, once you play CM nothing else will suffice. Suffice it to say, CM is just a demo file I share with others.
The game looks good, but the interface is not dynamic enough. To much like work controlling the view angle.

So for all it's wonderous glamourous 3d imagery, the game is still poorly designed at the interface level.
But don't say that over at Battlefront, I'll be sponging up what's left of ya hehe.

I have been trolling my large collection of boardgames the last couple of weeks now (trying to write some wierd notion of article on wargaming like anyone will care hehe).
I was looking at my copy of Afrika Korps and thinking, a complete bonehead probably could succeed in putting this on the computer all onto a 3.5 floppy too.

The only problem being the monocolour map with marginal detailing, and the dullsville counters AHHHHHHH !!! run and hide god it's sooooo ugly.

That's the problem with computer gaming. It's not the people refusing to add spice to board games, it's people thinking a humble board game can't be any good unless it has more spice than Arrakis.

Afrika Korps is an established classic. Today my copy has only one failing, I have not taught it to anyone recently. It certainly doesn't need anything to make it "better". That would be truely arrogant of me to presume I could improve on a classic.

Wargaming is for wargamers. Is that such a bad thing?

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 65

- 4/17/2003 6:23:05 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

I gotta type faster, that was several posts sneaked in ahead of my last one (of course taking son to video rental store in mid post didn't help).

Kungfu I have the prefect game for you, its called dating.

You get it all in one package. Tactical warfare, grand strategy, economics, research.

And when add the sex upgrade things just get hairy. Aint no RTS game going to hold a candle to it eh.

And here is the kicker, while it ain't free, you can produce you own expansions. You do need special permission to access the source code though.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 66

- 4/17/2003 6:28:20 AM

Ludovic Coval

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Toulon, France
Status: offline

Veldor,

[QUOTE]1. Why did you choose to make Battlefields! an MFC application?
[/QUOTE]

By lazzyiness :) MFC make developer live far more easy about Windows programming.

[QUOTE]2. Why did you choose C++ and not Java, VB, or Fortran? [/QUOTE]

I was C developer, C++ was the natural language (altough I used both Pascal and VBA for years).

Battlefields! using a 'wego' system, it offers only PBEM.

LC.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 67

- 4/17/2003 11:21:53 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]I wonder where computer wargaming would be today, if say 5 years ago, programmers instead of producing detailed 3d graphics, had decided the visual representation of wargames was adequate, and designers had become obsessed with more innovative AI concepts.[/B][/QUOTE]

It's not quite as simple as that. programming 3D graphics and making a good AI are two totally different skill sets. So on one hand the problem is that most programmers just don't have that specialized skill or training. However you could attribute that fact to the emphasis being more on 3D graphic skills and thus programmers taking classes or otherwise concentrating more on developing those skills than on AI ones.

I think the methodology and structure being used for wargame AI's must simply be wrong. But then its easy to criticize. If good AI's could be made it would greatly alter the computer wargaming world.

[QUOTE][B]I know people that won't play anything but Everquest. My friend made me a set of the cds, and is driving me nuts to get me to play the game. He is insisting on me using one of his many Accounts, in the hope I will get dragged in.

But running around endlessly hacking things is quite dull sounding. They can't hope to make EQ good enough "looking" to make something that sounds dull exciting.
[/B][/QUOTE]

It's more fun than it might seem though I personally never preferred EQ but for instance Ultima Online. Its pretty cool when everyone in the game is a real person. When you can meet in a tavern and chat like we are here but do it in game instead. Break out the chess board and play an ACTUAL game of chess within the Ultima world sitting in a tavern there while also talking about things like this. Pretty surreal. Then there is the building of guilds and empires. I led one myself as I playtested early on all the original MMPORG's including UO and EQ. And all the micromanagement of running a castle and everything wihtin it. Handing out weapons and armor to the new recruits. Teaching "real apprentices" the tricks of the magic trade.. and so on... a good MMPORG is so much more than hack and slash. EQ is not nearly as good as UO was. No game is. Sadly that is another area where 3D stomped out advancement. EQ is a good game but does not represent the best of what MMPORG's can be.

[QUOTE][B]That's the problem with computer gaming. It's not the people refusing to add spice to board games, it's people thinking a humble board game can't be any good unless it has more spice than Arrakis.

Afrika Korps is an established classic. Today my copy has only one failing, I have not taught it to anyone recently. It certainly doesn't need anything to make it "better". That would be truely arrogant of me to presume I could improve on a classic.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Well the emphasis on "looks" doesn't apply only to computer games. Believe it or not, no one is more guilty of that thought than MMP themselves. If you look past ASL to every single other project they are working on... Not one of the remakes has much more to do than improving the "looks" alone.

The new Panzerblitz basically unchanged except for killer looking mapboards and counters now (And I do REALLY really like them). Who needs this!!! Just reprint the old one right?

The new Up Front. Axed are all the ugly antiquated counters. We don't need no stinkin' counters! Thats so 1970's! Instead now some 600 plus high glossed cards with full color graphics. Out are the traditional components entirely. What else is new? Little else so far as I'm aware besides a restructuring of the manual (which I'm still at odds over figuring out how a structured programmed manual is harder to understand in 2 page chunks than having to read even the best written manual in one 42 page marathon)..

So clearly the desire for better look and feel transcends both online and offline wargame play...

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Post #: 68

- 4/17/2003 11:36:03 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
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Hmm not good news and you sound like you have been checking things out.

I was hoping Panzerblitz II would be Panzerblitz with all the advancement of Panzerleader and Arab Israelis Wars phased into a new unified design.

Pretty boards and spiffy counters won't get a sale from me though.

I don't think removing the counters from Up Front was so bad, counters cost money, and with wargames if you can save money and not lose anything then it's ok.

Rebuilding the manual and taking out the programmed instruction method, what jack *** would do that. It was why Squad Leader, the game that started so much of all this, was successful.

I doubt many SL veterans would have been as originally receptive to learning SL in one solid gulp.
I groaned a major groan over the ASL manual but figured I had already mastered the game at any rate.

Someone reeeally needs to smack the two individuals in charge of those two projects over the head real good.

Putting make up on a classic and trying to ruin the one aspect of the other design that made it work, just shows the person in charge doesn't know how to make a real wargame any good.

Panzerblitz 2 might have been sold as the Panzerblitz system, looks like they have gone for Baywatchblitz instead.
And I guess the new Up Front deserves t be called son of ASL Manual.

Not very inspired decisions if the reports are true.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 69

- 4/17/2003 11:57:29 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Hmm not good news and you sound like you have been checking things out.

I was hoping Panzerblitz II would be Panzerblitz with all the advancement of Panzerleader and Arab Israelis Wars phased into a new unified design.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I do believe PB2 is a combo of PB and PL, unsure on AIW. I don't really have that much info about it.

Here's a link to the graphics designers website and a shot of PB2:

http://www.craiggrando.com/mmp/

[QUOTE][B]
I don't think removing the counters from Up Front was so bad, counters cost money, and with wargames if you can save money and not lose anything then it's ok.
[/B][/QUOTE]

You must not have heard. That fact is the #1 thing holding up a print of the new Up Front. PRECISELY because of the ADDED cost that all the glossy cards encur. Those high colored double sided cards cost far far more than a silly cardboard sheet.

[QUOTE][B]
Rebuilding the manual and taking out the programmed instruction method, what jack *** would do that. It was why Squad Leader, the game that started so much of all this, was successful.

I doubt many SL veterans would have been as originally receptive to learning SL in one solid gulp.
I groaned a major groan over the ASL manual but figured I had already mastered the game at any rate.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Why there you have it. Remember what I was saying about ASL'rs? And who is doing the next Up Front but a bunch of ASLr's?? The problem with the Up Front manual is that its difficult for the veteran user to reference because after knowing all the rules it really isn't organized in the optimum way. I'd sooner prefer two versions of the manual though than to screw over the new player. But wait, just like in ASL, there ARENT any new Up Front players. Apparantly everyone thinks only the existing audience wants the game and why would the existing audience need to learn Up Front?

This was very convincingly illustrated to me(just kidding) in the almost infamous way ASL'rs point out: "Everyone on the UpFront mailing list said they would prefer a non-programmed rulebook" I am sorry but this is one of those times where I really do feel I am justified in feeling smarter than the rest. I scratch my head everytime I hear something like this. I wonder how that can happen that the world closes in around groups like that. It would be sort of like posting a poll here on the Matrix Forums asking "How many of you like wargames" and then stating "See nearly everyone likes wargames, just look at the results of this poll!!!"

[QUOTE][B]
Someone reeeally needs to smack the two individuals in charge of those two projects over the head real good.[/B][/QUOTE]

That may be part of the problem. Curt is off playing one game or another (Be it BB or ASL) and the other 3 are working on ASL.

[QUOTE][B]
Putting make up on a classic and trying to ruin the one aspect of the other design that made it work, just shows the person in charge doesn't know how to make a real wargame any good.

Not very inspired decisions if the reports are true. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well don't jump to any conclusions just yet. After all, nethier one of them yet have a release date within this century. So what the final products turn out to be still remains to be seen. Perhaps they will combine the two and make a Panzerblitz trading card game? hehe.

But I did want to make the point that whatever improvements they are or aren't making, the "look and feel" is the first they choose to do and the one that will definitely stay in the final products. Not unlike many PC games. Not so different our two worlds are after all.

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Post #: 70

- 4/17/2003 12:16:24 PM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ludovic Coval
[B]By lazzyiness :) MFC make developer live far more easy about Windows programming.[/B][/QUOTE]

An honest answer!?!? What were you thinking? A poor American you would make! Where is the BS answer? :)

No, I completely agree. MFC is really sweet and one reason I love C++. I've only used MFC and DirectX by themselves, never together. I'd read and/or been told here or there that the combo is a bit much in the overhead area... But, after thinking about it some, I don't think it really would much matter especially if you are using MFC extensively. It really just comes down to some selectable classes and libraries and if that saves you writing all that yourselves than nothing lost. Using MFC is something most games couldn't do but something specifically applicable to a wargame I think.

Good old Microsoft. Soon games will write themselves. I should probably be developing to the .NET framework now. But I figure the first publisher to release a .NET game will get everyone bitching about the upgrades needed. People just accept nowadays needing DirectX but soon we have to throw that other requirement on them as well.

Microsoft's master plan is beyond perfect. It's pure genious. Within a few years the API will be available only internally to MS developers..everyone else will have to use the .NET framework. And all OS's will be running a stripped down version of SQL in the kernel.

You could call it further monopolizing, even evil, but oddly it also happens to be the greatest advancement the computer industry will see since the original introduction of windows. And the final stake through every competing OS's heart!

Oh and then you will see the most AMAZING and POWERFUL games when MS has essentially turned everyone's home pc into a mini SQL Server!

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Post #: 71

- 4/17/2003 3:13:36 PM

Ludovic Coval

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Toulon, France
Status: offline

Veldor,

[QUOTE] A poor American you would make![/QUOTE]

For now in the US I-hate/love-other-friendly-countrymeter I'm also a poor French :D

LC.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 72

- 4/17/2003 5:50:52 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
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Very pretty, I must confess.

http://www.craiggrando.com/mmp/

Also nice if they indeed combine even just PB and PL together and Arab Is doesn't make it.

Hopefully it sees the light of day one way or another. It's not like it requires rocket science, they don't need to re make the game, mostly just get it back in circulation.

Regarding the Up Front Cards, didn't realise cards might be more cost intensive, should have thought of the more invlved imagery.
Still think a fully card using notion not to bad, but I guess this won't deflate but rather inflate cost.

The manual just proves, you can't rest on past work though.

And even today, I think more work needs to be done, to produce an intro package game better than the notion attempted with Paratroop.
The design is sound, just the way their selling it could be improved.

Just so I don't get branded a loyal follower though, I stopped using the ASL mailing list, when to many members behaved in a way, that would have got them banned from a forum.

Not wanting a programmed manual, that is a sad indictment of wargamers as a whole. Perhaps that is why the concept is seldom seen in wargaming. Maybe it is a character flaw that is to common to wargamers as a rule.
Sort of like RTS gamers always insisting in how real time is real.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 73

- 4/18/2003 2:43:41 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ludovic Coval
[B]
larth,

Welcome :). (BTW should not be "2b || !2b" ? ;)

LC [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi LC.

Thanks!

Do you program a lot? :-) Yes, logically it should be || ! But rarely someone notice, only really experienced programmers so far.

Is Battlefield == "Battlefield 1942"?

see you,
Lars

_____________________________

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 74

- 4/18/2003 3:02:19 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]I'm quite bored with this thread as it accomplishes nothing when people do not respond to direct questions asked of them. Instead we all just post in endless circles.

But I would like to say Les that your last comments about ASL and ASL players are pretty much why you see so very little new blood to begin with in that community.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Did you really expect answers to your AI questions? Or do just don't want to continue to explain what exactly your critique is about...

[QUOTE] [B]
Microsoft's master plan is beyond perfect. It's pure genious. Within a few years the API will be available only internally to MS developers..everyone else will have to use the .NET framework. And all OS's will be running a stripped down version of SQL in the kernel.
[/B][/QUOTE]

What points in your opinion about [.NET] are genious? This would be really intresting to know.

[QUOTE] [B]
You could call it further monopolizing, even evil, but oddly it also happens to be the greatest advancement the computer industry will see since the original introduction of windows. And the final stake through every competing OS's heart!
[/B][/QUOTE]

It is amazing how well the MS hype is working on you. You know all this without having done something on .NET yet?

[QUOTE] [B]
Oh and then you will see the most AMAZING and POWERFUL games when MS has essentially turned everyone's home pc into a mini SQL Server!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Games like this?

[URL=http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/707/cisco-sn-20030125-worm.shtml]http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/707/cisco-sn-20030125-worm.shtml[/URL]

/Lars

_____________________________

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 75

- 4/18/2003 3:27:56 AM

Ludovic Coval

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Toulon, France
Status: offline

larth,

[QUOTE]Do you program a lot? :-)[/QUOTE]

[Joke on]
Erik (Rutins) wonder :D
[Joke off]

[QUOTE]Is Battlefield == "Battlefield 1942"?[/QUOTE]

No, Battlefields! is a WII operational level Matrix game.

LC.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 76

- 4/18/2003 7:49:12 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
[B]Did you really expect answers to your AI questions? Or do just don't want to continue to explain what exactly your critique is about...[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, I wouldn't ask a question If I didn't want an answer

[QUOTE][B]What points in your opinion about [.NET] are genious? This would be really intresting to know.[/B][/QUOTE]

Read closer. I said the "master plan" was genious, not necessarily .net which is just one piece. If I had to pick a piece it would be the part about putting SQL in the kernal and having everything from the file system to the registry to Active Directory in server cases, to program data residing basically into SQL tables. Coupled with .NET and the other pieces the whole thing comes together quite nicely.

[QUOTE][B]It is amazing how well the MS hype is working on you. You know all this without having done something on .NET yet?[/B][/QUOTE]

When I said I probably should be developing for .NET, that was meant in reference to GAMES, not other things. I am very fluent in .NET. Certified even as an Instructor for it. And I have visited Redmond and other places recently for training myself. It's much easier to use new technology in the business world where everything is a simple (or not so simple) matter of ROI and TCO and so on. But GAMES generally need a publisher and it is far easier to get something published when it uses more widely accepted technologies. To me that just seems like common sense but lets just call it my own personal opinion at worst.

[B][QUOTE]
Games like this?
[/B][/QUOTE]

The link doesn't work so I do not know what it is suppose to be but obviously no games are available that use those powers as they are just now working on that next version of Windows that will include the feature..

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Post #: 77

- 4/18/2003 7:51:20 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
[B]Is Battlefield == "Battlefield 1942"?
[/B][/QUOTE]

It is a Matrix Game... See the following link...

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/battlefields/

_____________________________

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Post #: 78

- 4/18/2003 8:04:03 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Just so I don't get branded a loyal follower though, I stopped using the ASL mailing list, when to many members behaved in a way, that would have got them banned from a forum.
[/B][/QUOTE]

They should give out medals for that accomplishment :) Maybe it's better now, but I somehow doubt it.

See we are more alike than you'd probably care to admit...

_____________________________

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Post #: 79

- 4/18/2003 9:55:37 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
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Did you mean give "them" a medal for getting "me" to leave hehe.

It was a really sad event too.

I had made the completely facist commie assertion (always wonder about people that can attempt to call a person a facist commie), that beer stores should be closed on Rememberence Day, or the US equal to it.

The reasoning being, wouldn't it be nice if the national day of appreciation for our war dead, was free of dumb ****s that can't spell freedom, spending the day drinking (on yet another carefully spaced long weekend).

Unfortunately, that was to alarmist an attack on their much overburdened freedoms to stand for. An entire calendar day, without the freedom to drink beer.

I was quite swarmed by both Canadian and US based individuals. Hopefully I never have to meet and breathe the same air as such a low grade citizen.

It just goes to show, no game can assure you, it's fans are worth considering worthy defacto.

But it was enough to get me to flip the list the bird.

This was looooong before I became active in the world of online forums.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 80

- 4/18/2003 9:56:46 AM

kungfucheez

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/4/2003
Status: offline

I still like SPWAW better

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 81

- 4/19/2003 1:39:48 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ludovic Coval
[B]

[Joke on]
Erik (Rutins) wonder :D
[Joke off]
[/B][/QUOTE]

LC,

I didn't know you / eric but checking the credits made that clear - cool. The www page says still in development - how far are you?

see you,
Lars

_____________________________

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 82

- 4/19/2003 1:45:53 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]It just goes to show, no game can assure you, it's fans are worth considering worthy defacto.

But it was enough to get me to flip the list the bird.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Les,

I know exactly what you mean, a large part of the emails on the ASLML are from some very "binary" minded individuals; like "I am right you are wrong", "This is the right way your way is the wrong way".. Well you know having been there. I am still (since 199x) mostly to see the occasional intresting rule getting picked apart. It is amazing that new players still turn up a regular intervals asking for hints and where to find other players. And it is neat to pick up players for PBEM there too. When did you leave?

see you,
Lars

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"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

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(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 83

- 4/19/2003 2:08:43 AM

larth

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]If I had to pick a piece it would be the part about putting SQL in the kernal and having everything from the file system to the registry to Active Directory in server cases, to program data residing basically into SQL tables.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually the kernel is intended to be kept small and secure. Do you remember the problems with faulty video drivers crashing the whole system when they were made part of the NT kernel and running with kernel priviligies?

The link that didn't work for your browser was to a security report on the MS SQL worm exploiting another MS security hole.

[QUOTE][B]
I am very fluent in .NET. Certified even as an Instructor for it. And I have visited Redmond and other places recently for training myself.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks, this explains your aversion to Java! Hope your Up Front game is not written in Visual Basic...

regards,
Lars

_____________________________

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

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Post #: 84

- 4/19/2003 2:58:45 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

I was on the list for like about a year I think.

Can't totally recall when to be honest.

The only big thing that was happening that I rmember being quite the hub bub, was Hasbro getting the notion it could copywrite the hex centre dot.

That sure was good for quite a lot of "heated debate".

I met a number of good individuals though. But it just got to much during that one incident.

I had an interest in the A3R list about the same time period. The big matter was srrounding GW2K at the time. I suppose that has become less intense now that A World at War is being promoted for sale (I would be interested, but I already own A3R and I think it is the pinnacle of the design myself).

Left that list when every second posting was from an individual (from no fault of their own if not a native english speaking person) was basically a rules dispute based on poor grasp of the actual wording.
It became tedious and tiresome getting email traffic that amounted to people that just needed a good dictionary.

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Post #: 85

- 4/19/2003 3:00:21 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

I think I discovered Matrix shortly after (might have been a year lag), and really realised that a decent forum far out performed the merits of a mailing list in meeting my interests.

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Post #: 86

- 4/19/2003 3:26:18 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
[B]Actually the kernel is intended to be kept small and secure. Do you remember the problems with faulty video drivers crashing the whole system when they were made part of the NT kernel and running with kernel priviligies?
[/B][/QUOTE]
It will remain small. First off its a much stripped down version. Second only a few essential pieces of it are actually "IN" the kernel. That is for performance reasons. Microsoft has done a fine job with the stability of windows 2000 and windows xp. I do not think its accurate to place any mistrust in that area any longer.

[QUOTE][B]The link that didn't work for your browser was to a security report on the MS SQL worm exploiting another MS security hole.[/B][/QUOTE]

Only if you hadn't already applied the appropriate patches. I don't wish to argue the "security" issue. The most credible "universal" security report for last year stated LINUX as having the most vulnerabilities discovered for last year and MS was second. Its always more popular to pick on the big guys though so that fact didn't get advertised too much. In either case when 90% of the world uses a MS product for this or that and 10% uses the rest, it doesnt mean the other products arent just as buggy or unsecure. Its just not as many are trying to find them.

[QUOTE][B]
Thanks, this explains your aversion to Java! [/B][/QUOTE]

Why? So in your mind everyone is either naively swayed by MS marketing hype or intelligentely Anti-Microsoft? What does anything involving Microsoft have to do with an "aversion to Java"? Haven't you heard of Microsoft Visual J++ or Visual J# .NET?

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Post #: 87

- 4/19/2003 3:32:18 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]I think I discovered Matrix shortly after (might have been a year lag), and really realised that a decent forum far out performed the merits of a mailing list in meeting my interests. [/B][/QUOTE]

Les, you are too technically literate for a wargamer! Get off the forums and go back to "respectable" wargaming community endorsed sources such as the mailing lists and the wonderful single-thread only Consimworld style pages!!

Les you being here gives the wargame community the wrong message. That they should embrace technology and use it too further advance their hobbies.

If your not careful soon places like Consimworld will shut down and be replaced by more technically advanced alternatives. The "true" wargamers will then have to FLEE in terror at the technologically advanced wonder that powers things such as these forums here.

That or be forced to admit that "technology" has a place in their "hobby".

I am, of course, just kidding.... Or am I?? :)

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Post #: 88

- 4/19/2003 4:38:49 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
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Heheh your post would have been more effective if you had left out

"Les you are too technically literate for a wargamer".

That is clearly not a tangible credible assertion hehe.

I have, and will always say, the right tool for the job.

Computers are great tools, I like em.

Just so long as they are always the right tool at the moment when I am using it.

A computer can occasionally be the wrong tool. The trick is knowing when that occurs.

The second a computer isn't as easy or easier than the real thing, nothing it is capable of makes any difference.

Case in point. I have since I first made it known I would ship my ultra Steel Panthers to any location on the planet (if the recipient covered cost of postage), sent 6 cds out.
Sure that aint a lot. But for 6 fans that found the ability to download stuff free off the net, it was the best option. Sometimes old snail mail was better.

Oh just for comparitive sake. With Getright downloading in the slow evening/and or over night on a 56 k modem taking if my experiences are any indications, the equal of 6-7 12 hour long evenings. I can get the cd mailed to you faster than you can download it (took 4 business days for me to get it to Austria eh).

Sometimes the old ways are better, sometimes the new ways are.

So far for me, the biggest let down in wargaming, where new has not been worth it, is in the area of 3d.
I am currently more inclined to say the 3d experience has done more to burden wargaming, than make it more fun and easier.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 89

- 4/19/2003 5:11:15 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Oh just for comparitive sake. With Getright downloading in the slow evening/and or over night on a 56 k modem taking if my experiences are any indications, the equal of 6-7 12 hour long evenings. I can get the cd mailed to you faster than you can download it (took 4 business days for me to get it to Austria eh).

Sometimes the old ways are better, sometimes the new ways are.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not sure thats the best example as if you had a "modern" internet connection, that whole situation would not exist and the "old way" would be MUCH slower than the "New" way.

[QUOTE][B]
So far for me, the biggest let down in wargaming, where new has not been worth it, is in the area of 3d.
I am currently more inclined to say the 3d experience has done more to burden wargaming, than make it more fun and easier. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm somwhat inclined to agree on that point. As someone pointed out in another thread. Its really a matter of how much information you can "take in" in a 3D view vs a 2D one. You can get a much larger amount of information presented to you in a clearer fashion in 2D top down then in a 3D first person type view.

Whether or not such a thing is realistic for a tactical game or not is really irrelevant to me. In my view you personally ALWAYS must represent someone NOT on the battlefield anyway but either just offmap or otherwise remote.

And if you are suppose to be someone in game and onscreen you should have a character representing you, which when shot and killed, instantly ends the game. Now that would be realistic! But fun to play no.

But I think all it really means is there will always be a place for 2D wargames. I don't really look at 3D wargames as "burdening" wargames because most of the people working on them aren't doing them instead of 2D wargames, they are doing them instead of some other 3D game or instead of nothing at all. Plenty of others continue with 2D wargame development. And not due to lack of being able to do a 3D version as much as because a 2D interface is simply more appropriate for the style of game.

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Post #: 90