Naval Search Arcs Broken?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Naval Search Arcs Broken?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Tech Support >> Naval Search Arcs Broken?

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 9/16/2016 4:17:55 AM

InfiniteMonkey
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

I cannot seem to actually find ships when I set search arcs. Has anyone actually tested to see if they work?

I am running version 1 dot 7 dot 11 dot 24 and whenever I set search arcs for planes, I detect nothing in the search area. If I instead set the same air groups to random arcs, I tend to find ships. In particular, I have set arcs to cover the area around Singapore using multiple Naval Search air groups searching for Force Z on 12/7/41. I can clearly see at least 4 arcs that cover the hexes occupied by Force Z, but do not detect it. If I turn even one group to random, it gets detected. I've tried different arc settings to make arcs turn green, blue, and black in dozens of tests, but as long as I enter search arcs, I find nothing.

I've run the game through December playing the Japanese side several times - and cannot locate American CV's that launched air strikes from 4 hexes away the previous turn. (CV's raiding Marshall Islands post 12/7) I'm searching with at least 3 groups of Float planes and Flying boats including the Yokohoma KuT-1&-2 air groups flying K6K4 Mavis

< Message edited by InfiniteMonkey -- 9/16/2016 4:34:15 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 9/16/2016 7:21:49 AM

Dutch_slith
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline

No, they do work. Simply bad luck.

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 2

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 9/16/2016 8:05:30 AM

BBfanboy
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

No, they do work. Simply bad luck.

Or possibly bad settings - e.g. searching too far out dilutes the search too much. The developers have hinted that beyond 12 hexes the width of the 10º arc is too great for the plane to see across in good weather. If the weather is less than clear, the gaps between visibility start much sooner.

Then there is the issue of NavSearch training levels for the pilots - not all good at game start.

Basically you need saturation coverage and reasonable weather to be sure of spotting something.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Dutch_slith)

Post #: 3

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 9/16/2016 12:10:21 PM

RFalvo69
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline

Also consider that high-altitude searches have a better chance at finding big TFs, low-alt at finding smaller ones.

< Message edited by RFalvo69 -- 9/16/2016 12:11:51 PM >

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 4

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 9/16/2016 12:11:45 PM

witpqs
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

+ pilot experience and skills (Naval Search in particular). In the early game these are often lacking. Overlapping searches from different groups at different bases helps, too.

Do be advised that even the best search configurations with the best pilots, best aircraft, radar, etc. are still subject to weather and to random performance modifiers. Search (and everything else in this game) is designed to be not perfect.

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 5

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 9/17/2016 1:00:11 AM

rustysi
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

As witpqs has said above even under the best conditions/circumstances things can go awry. For the most part I've not had much trouble when 'all the bases are covered' and I use arcs all the time.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 6

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 9/17/2016 8:52:05 AM

szmike
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 345
Joined: 8/30/2009
Status: offline

Is 4 hexes and under search range 100% effective, so there's no need for arcs or is it an urban legend? I think I've read about it somewhere.

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 7

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 9/17/2016 4:24:21 PM

witpqs
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike

Is 4 hexes and under search range 100% effective, so there's no need for arcs or is it an urban legend? I think I've read about it somewhere.

IIRC, what the developers have said is that regardless of the search are set, all hexes within 4 hexes are searched. I don't recall them saying that it is 100% effective.

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to szmike)

Post #: 8

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 9/20/2016 12:20:25 AM

Knyvet
Matrix Trooper

Posts: 138
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

The Manual has some good tips and important search points on page 151

Naval Search – The aircraft will search for enemy Task Forces (subs or
surface) in all directions out to their extended range. They will carry an
extended range bomb load in case they spot a sub or surface ship, in which
case they will attempt to attack unless driven off by CAP or Flak. Individual
planes searching for enemy Task Forces conduct naval search. The search
continues until a TF is detected or the plane exceeds its range. Once a
TF is detected, the plane may terminate its flight depending on range to
target; the nearer the TF is to the plane’s base, more likely that the plane
may continue to fly searches. Searches within 5 hexes of the base are
more likely to detect TFs as there will be a number of planes transiting to
and from the search areas. Setting the max range to a lower range than
the full extended range will improve the chance to detect, as this can
translate to more flights by the same plane. Because the search can be
terminated due to detecting a TF, it possible better targets may be missed.

Search missions can be given an arc of 10-degree sectors to be searched. Planes in a group
are assigned to a search one at a time from the start sector to the end sector. If there are more
planes than sectors, then the process is repeated. For example, 10 planes on search over arc
of 3 sectors end up as 4 to first, 3 to second and 3 to third. The benefit of this is that only TF’s
within this arc are looked at, thus concentrating assets on a particular threat. The chance of
sighting the enemy is increased with the number of planes searching. When a unit has a Nav
Search Level set greater than zero, then the set percentage of the unit will automatically fly this
Mission, with the remainder of the planes either flying the Mission set for the unit or resting (if
the Mission is Naval Search).

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 9

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/12/2016 3:41:16 AM

InfiniteMonkey
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

You are all missing the point.

Same airgroups searching, smae percentages, same pilots, same altitiudes, same planes, etc.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE:

Search arcs set to specific arcs (verified using 'Z' hot key and show arcs button on air group screen) - VERY LOW DETECTION FREQUENCY

Search arcs set to random arcs - VERY HIGH DETECTION FREQUENCY.

The ONLY variable here is the use of specific search arcs.

(in reply to Knyvet)

Post #: 10

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/12/2016 7:37:59 AM

Lokasenna
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

I see what you're saying, and I've observed that phenomenon at times, however my search arcs do just fine. I've been running them for months in particular areas in each of my games and I always detect stuff. In fact, in one game I don't think I have ANY groups on random and all are manually set. If they didn't work, I'd never see anything, would I? And yet I do...

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 11

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/21/2016 5:21:44 AM

InfiniteMonkey
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I see what you're saying, and I've observed that phenomenon at times, however my search arcs do just fine. I've been running them for months in particular areas in each of my games and I always detect stuff. In fact, in one game I don't think I have ANY groups on random and all are manually set. If they didn't work, I'd never see anything, would I? And yet I do...

I understand. I've done more controlled tests and detected stuff with specific search arcs. I went so far as to create a scenario that placed a couple search squadrons and support/supply on Marcus Island, then placed Allied TF's containing 1 ship in all 36 hexes around the island at range 6. I was able to detect some TF's. I also stood down every air group other than two searching from Marcus Island to make sure the detections were coming from the search arcs. All I am saying is that I completely miss detecting many more TF's using specific arcs than I do with random. And it happens all over - The Marshalls, Babeldaob, on Ships, from Takao, and Saigon. The only common thread is search arcs. I even when to verify the compass headings and clockwise/wounteclockwise settings, varied arcs slightly, Pressed Z and show arcs to verify the arcs, etc.

I know, I know, there is supposed to be degradation at long range. I got that. The degradation for search arcs should be LESS than random arcs though - and random arcs work with uncanny efficiency and specific arcs do not work for **** sometimes, even though the hexes that contain TF's should have more planes searching the hex - and the difference is not even close.

I literally set EVERY search plane I had to specific arcs representing the Threat axis for the base/ship they were on - and when I did, that is when the problem appeared. (and I do mean EVERY search group -Glens on subs, AV, CS, carrier groups, CL/CA/BB groups included). I think the groups that are placed on random arcs somewhat mask the issue. Players see the TF's get detected therefore they think the specific arcs work better than they do.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 12

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/21/2016 4:42:15 PM

Lokasenna
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

Within 4 hexes, you'll get good results. I think it's outside of 4 hexes where it starts to break down, and people have said that at 15+ it's really a crapshoot. I've detected things that far out, but it must just be luck at that point because the 10' arc is so wide.

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 13

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/21/2016 5:15:38 PM

BBfanboy
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Within 4 hexes, you'll get good results. I think it's outside of 4 hexes where it starts to break down, and people have said that at 15+ it's really a crapshoot. I've detected things that far out, but it must just be luck at that point because the 10' arc is so wide.

Loka - you can get the º symbol by holding down the ALT key and typing 167. When you release the ALT key it will appear.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 14

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/21/2016 8:18:12 PM

witpqs
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Within 4 hexes, you'll get good results. I think it's outside of 4 hexes where it starts to break down, and people have said that at 15+ it's really a crapshoot. I've detected things that far out, but it must just be luck at that point because the 10' arc is so wide.

Loka - you can get the º symbol by holding down the ALT key and typing 167. When you release the ALT key it will appear.

176 gives °. 167 gives º.

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 15

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/21/2016 10:32:35 PM

BBfanboy
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Within 4 hexes, you'll get good results. I think it's outside of 4 hexes where it starts to break down, and people have said that at 15+ it's really a crapshoot. I've detected things that far out, but it must just be luck at that point because the 10' arc is so wide.

Loka - you can get the º symbol by holding down the ALT key and typing 167. When you release the ALT key it will appear.

176 gives °. 167 gives º.

Well we use Celsius scale up here so our degrees are bigger!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 16

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/21/2016 10:35:09 PM

szmike
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 345
Joined: 8/30/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

176 gives °. 167 gives º.

176 gives ░ 167 gives ž

ooops

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 17

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/21/2016 10:44:37 PM

BBfanboy
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

176 gives °. 167 gives º.

176 gives ░ 167 gives ž

ooops

It depends on the font set that you are using. If you are not using the US English keyboard setting, you will have a different font which means a different character set.
Windows used to allow you to see the character set by going to the "Character Map" item in one of the properties menus. I have not been able to find it in recent versions of Windows but I know I could create one by starting a document and then going through the numbers 1 to 256 using the ALT key to print the character in the document. Somewhere in your character set you will have a º symbol - in with all the mathematics and scientific symbols most likely.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to szmike)

Post #: 18

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/21/2016 11:59:28 PM

szmike
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 345
Joined: 8/30/2009
Status: offline

Thank you. I've already known that, I'm not using US keyboard settings obviously, I could switch to get the symbol without looking at character map, which is readily available in Win7. I won't change to win10 as long as I can.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 19

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/22/2016 2:57:59 AM

Lokasenna
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Within 4 hexes, you'll get good results. I think it's outside of 4 hexes where it starts to break down, and people have said that at 15+ it's really a crapshoot. I've detected things that far out, but it must just be luck at that point because the 10' arc is so wide.

Loka - you can get the º symbol by holding down the ALT key and typing 167. When you release the ALT key it will appear.

It depends on what text editor/web browser you are using, therefore I just always use the apostrophe

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 20

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/22/2016 4:51:03 AM

BBfanboy
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Within 4 hexes, you'll get good results. I think it's outside of 4 hexes where it starts to break down, and people have said that at 15+ it's really a crapshoot. I've detected things that far out, but it must just be luck at that point because the 10' arc is so wide.

Loka - you can get the º symbol by holding down the ALT key and typing 167. When you release the ALT key it will appear.

It depends on what text editor/web browser you are using, therefore I just always use the apostrophe .

The objection to that is that it is also used to denote "feet" (usually in altitude). Communication is so confusing ....

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 21

RE: Naval Search Arcs Broken? - 10/22/2016 6:37:09 AM

witpqs
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

176 gives °. 167 gives º.

176 gives ░ 167 gives ž

ooops

It depends on the font set that you are using. If you are not using the US English keyboard setting, you will have a different font which means a different character set.
Windows used to allow you to see the character set by going to the "Character Map" item in one of the properties menus. I have not been able to find it in recent versions of Windows but I know I could create one by starting a document and then going through the numbers 1 to 256 using the ALT key to print the character in the document. Somewhere in your character set you will have a º symbol - in with all the mathematics and scientific symbols most likely.

When I typed the two characters in the Matrix editor window, 167 gave a degree sign with a small horizontal line underneath it. When I look at it on the web page, it's just the degree sign (same as 176). Just as you say, stupid fonts!

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 22