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RE: F4F-7 - 10/15/2016 2:44:36 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The Myrt I provided was a later war type and the notes I have seen indicate it WAS used on their carriers, but the majority of the ships were sunk before deployment.


I've yet to see a source that confirms the operational IJN CVs (Zuikaku and the three Unryu class) that could use the Myrt when available, actually did so. If you've seen one (a source, that is), let me know as I'd be quite interested.

The dedicated recon type that the Japanese definitely did use operationally from their carriers was the Judy variant. The D4Y1-C took part in the battles of Midway and Santa Cruz, the D4Y2-C was used at Cape Engano.


Buck...I am sure you are right..I did find a list of all the squadrons which used the plane but none were deployed on the ships that I have located..
I remember building a model of one in 1966 (Tamiya?) and it showed the thing taking off from a flat-top on the box lid but the instructions (IIRC) were not in English?

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RE: F4F-7 - 10/15/2016 4:45:08 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:


He, what happened? Landing too heavy, with too high speed - a tired pilot after a VERY long recce flight....? Those swirling cables are not healthy.


Website doesnt say, I wonder if it had to do with the recon setup(weight distribution/fuel) or just a hard landing.


Weight distribution it should not be as fuel tanks were pretty much on the CG. One problem with taking off with max.
weight is if you develop a technical problem just after take-off and have to land again. Not that the problem would
be any worse if this happened in any other plane taking off with max. load. If you have an urgent problem you cannot
fly around to burn off fuel. I suppose that was the purpose of the fuel-dump tube under the Wildcat's rudder, not to
dump fuel to evade any pursuers.

I wonder if they would have allowed a fully loaded photo-Wildcat to land back again at the deck?

Fred


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RE: F4F-7 - 10/15/2016 4:59:18 PM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Buck...I am sure you are right..I did find a list of all the squadrons which used the plane but none were deployed on the ships that I have located..
I remember building a model of one in 1966 (Tamiya?) and it showed the thing taking off from a flat-top on the box lid but the instructions (IIRC) were not in English?


Box lid illustrations can't lie.

My understanding is that the 601st air group in 1944 was used to act as the air complement on the first-line carriers
of the IJN's Mobile Fleet whenever the fleet was to be called into action. Otherwise they tended to train and operate
from airfields nearby to the Fleet, only really using the carriers for deck qualifications, etc.

The 601st reportedly received their first Myrts while they were in the process of rebuilding at airfields in southern
Japan around the end of '44, after having been recently decimated in operations in defence of the Philippines. It was
planned that they would form the air complements when next needed for the last remaining IJN fleet carriers, the three
Unryu class that were training close by in the Inland Sea.

IIRC, the Japanese then decided in Feb '45 to finally put their last two (Unryu was sunk in Nov '44) fleet carriers
out to pasture for good and instead deploy the barely trained 601st for land-based operations in defence of Iwo Jima,
where of course they were decimated again.

This is all from memory but that was why it did seem unlikely when I was reading about this that the Myrts ever took
part in combat operations from any IJN fleet carriers.

However in defence of your box lid, the Myrts almost certainly would have been landing and taking off from the carriers
at times during their training. Otherwise there would have been a lot of deck accidents when the carriers next went to
sea in defence of the Empire, or at least much more than normal for the Japanese at that point in the war.

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RE: F4F-7 - 10/15/2016 5:24:46 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Buck...I am sure you are right..I did find a list of all the squadrons which used the plane but none were deployed on the ships that I have located..
I remember building a model of one in 1966 (Tamiya?) and it showed the thing taking off from a flat-top on the box lid but the instructions (IIRC) were not in English?


Box lid illustrations can't lie.

My understanding is that the 601st air group in 1944 was used to act as the air complement on the first-line carriers
of the IJN's Mobile Fleet whenever the fleet was to be called into action. Otherwise they tended to train and operate
from airfields nearby to the Fleet, only really using the carriers for deck qualifications, etc.

The 601st reportedly received their first Myrts while they were in the process of rebuilding at airfields in southern
Japan around the end of '44, after having been recently decimated in operations in defence of the Philippines. It was
planned that they would form the air complements when next needed for the last remaining IJN fleet carriers, the three
Unryu class that were training close by in the Inland Sea.

IIRC, the Japanese then decided in Feb '45 to finally put their last two (Unryu was sunk in Nov '44) fleet carriers
out to pasture for good and instead deploy the barely trained 601st for land-based operations in defence of Iwo Jima,
where of course they were decimated again.

This is all from memory but that was why it did seem unlikely when I was reading about this that the Myrts ever took
part in combat operations from any IJN fleet carriers.

However in defence of your box lid, the Myrts almost certainly would have been landing and taking off from the carriers
at times during their training. Otherwise there would have been a lot of deck accidents when the carriers next went to
sea in defence of the Empire, or at least much more than normal for the Japanese at that point in the war.


The model itself had folding wings for deck use..I know the Judy was used for carrier recon duties.

Most of those Myrts were converted for B 29 interception duties.


Operators

Japan Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service

Naval Air Group Yokosuka Kokutai
121st Kokutai
131st Kokutai
132nd Kokutai
141st Kokutai
171st Kokutai
210th Kokutai
302nd Kokutai
343rd Kokutai
701st Kokutai
723rd Kokutai
752nd Kokutai
762nd Kokutai
801st Kokutai
1001st Kokutai

Aerial Squadron
Reconnaissance 3rd Hikotai
Reconnaissance 4th Hikotai
Reconnaissance 11th Hikotai
Reconnaissance 12th Hikotai
Reconnaissance 102nd Hikotai

Kamikaze
1st Mitate Special Attack Group (picked from 752nd Kokutai)
Sairy? Unit (picked from 752nd Kokutai, no sorties)
Saiun Unit (picked from 723rd Kokutai, no sorties)


< Message edited by m10bob -- 10/15/2016 5:32:00 PM >


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RE: F4F-7 - 10/16/2016 6:29:37 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Buck...I am sure you are right..I did find a list of all the squadrons which used the plane but none were deployed on the ships that I have located..
I remember building a model of one in 1966 (Tamiya?) and it showed the thing taking off from a flat-top on the box lid but the instructions (IIRC) were not in English?


The 1/50 scale kit of the Myrt?

US carriers by 1944 carried photographic aircraft for strike photo duties. The strike commander would usually fly a camera equipped F6F.

At the Battle of the Philippine Sea the strike commander was ordered to ditch on the way back, but he pushed through and landed on a carrier, but crashed on landing. He plead with the deck crew not to push his plane over the side before the film could be recovered, but they weren't listening and all the strike photographs went over the side.

Landing from the strike into darkness was complete chaos. There were some amazing stories and some sad ones too.

Bill

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RE: F4F-7 - 10/16/2016 1:51:52 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Buck...I am sure you are right..I did find a list of all the squadrons which used the plane but none were deployed on the ships that I have located..
I remember building a model of one in 1966 (Tamiya?) and it showed the thing taking off from a flat-top on the box lid but the instructions (IIRC) were not in English?


The 1/50 scale kit of the Myrt?

US carriers by 1944 carried photographic aircraft for strike photo duties. The strike commander would usually fly a camera equipped F6F.

At the Battle of the Philippine Sea the strike commander was ordered to ditch on the way back, but he pushed through and landed on a carrier, but crashed on landing. He plead with the deck crew not to push his plane over the side before the film could be recovered, but they weren't listening and all the strike photographs went over the side.

Landing from the strike into darkness was complete chaos. There were some amazing stories and some sad ones too.

Bill


All my planes were 1/72nd...Gadzooks I had something like 150 of them, and every month acquired a copy of Flying Review International for the great modellers section...and also read Air Classics every month.(Favorite issue of course was the one about the B 19)...

I told some of you guys a number of years ago that right after the Korean War, dad had a hobby shop and knew all those owners of the (then) fledgling plastic model companies).
I got to meet some of them and in roughly 1965 wrote to the owner of Revell(Lou Roth) with a suggestion of some planes he might consider manufacturing.
Indeed he did build those planes and released them on the same day..The Nakajima "Oscar"...The Polikarpov I 16, and the Brewster Buffalo.
Till then...NOBODY had models of them.
That is my sole claim to fame regarding the world of 1/72nd scale planes.

< Message edited by m10bob -- 10/16/2016 1:55:52 PM >


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RE: F4F-7 - 10/22/2016 4:36:08 PM   
packerpete

 

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I have read in multiple places that the F4F-7 was very underpowered for the weight. It was so bad that the entire deck length had to be clear, the carrier at max speed and still could not get off the deck without an extremely heavy head wind.
It did, however, fly non stop coast to coast in CONUS, and was allegedly capable of remaining aloft for 24hrs. It was also based on the F4F-3A, not the F4F-4. More details and referances available if required.

< Message edited by packerpete -- 10/22/2016 4:49:35 PM >

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RE: F4F-7 - 10/22/2016 5:09:30 PM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: packerpete

I have read in multiple places that the F4F-7 was very underpowered for the weight. It was so bad that the entire deck length had to be clear, the carrier at max speed and still could not get off the deck without an extremely heavy head wind.


Makes sense. I saw in one of the Enterprise reports that the T/O run requirements with full fuel meant no other aircraft could be spotted on deck, which meant a disruption to the carrier's normal CAP/Search/ASW tempo of operations.

quote:


It did, however, fly non stop coast to coast in CONUS, and was allegedly capable of remaining aloft for 24hrs.


As some have said...that poor pilot!

In the Naval Air Ferry Command War History is a commentary from one of the ferry pilots discussing the in-flight need to monitor and adjust the F4F-7's fuel between wing tanks so as to keep the aircraft balanced and avoid "some awkward moments". At least it gave the pilot something to do on those long flights.

So what references were you looking at?

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RE: F4F-7 - 10/22/2016 10:58:49 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: packerpete

I have read in multiple places that the F4F-7 was very underpowered for the weight. It was so bad that the entire deck length had to be clear, the carrier at max speed and still could not get off the deck without an extremely heavy head wind.
It did, however, fly non stop coast to coast in CONUS, and was allegedly capable of remaining aloft for 24hrs. It was also based on the F4F-3A, not the F4F-4. More details and referances available if required.

What would be most valuable in making an evaluation is the actual empty weight for this specific version of the Wildcat. I would estimate it to at least 4-500 lbs less than the "normal" empty weight - but that is only a rough guess.

Fred


< Message edited by Leandros -- 10/22/2016 11:01:12 PM >


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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 1:29:50 PM   
Buckrock

 

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Actually, in an empty condition the F4F-7 reportedly weighed more than an empty F4F-3, the aircraft it was originally modified from.
I'm not sure though why you think its empty weight is so important as the key to its long range mission survivability was in its flight
weight during the time it was in enemy air space, as in where enemy fighters and AA could be encountered.

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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 1:38:36 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Actually, in an empty condition the F4F-7 reportedly weighed more than an empty F4F-3, the aircraft it was originally modified from.

That I very much doubt considering, as I understand it, that armour and weapons were removed. Added weight was wing tanks, camera and auto-pilot. Which is why I think it would be interesting to know the exact empty weight of the version in question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock I'm not sure though why you think its empty weight is so important as the key to its long range mission survivability was in its flight
weight during the time it was in enemy air space, as in where enemy fighters and AA could be encountered.

In that respect I should not think it was worse off than any other unarmed recce plane of its time. That said, I don't see what AA has to do with it, other than it supposedly did not have armour.

Also, I haven't seen mentioned, not in any of the postings here, anyway, that survivability was the big question. But, any input is appreciated.

Fred


< Message edited by Leandros -- 10/23/2016 1:44:15 PM >


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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 2:12:09 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: packerpete

I have read in multiple places that the F4F-7 was very underpowered for the weight. It was so bad that the entire deck length had to be clear, the carrier at max
speed and still could not get off the deck without an extremely heavy head wind.

I would like to comment a little on this. As I see it, the purpose of an aircraft such as this would be:

1. When a TF Commander wanted info on a distant enemy base that could not, for whatever reason, be verified by own land-based recce, or patrol, planes..
2. ...and/or, when said base was out of reach of his own "scouts" - SBDs.

This could imply a relatively low need for readiness, except for routine CAP's. IOW, little deck activity and therefore available full-length deck take-offs.
To turn it around, if there was a need for maximum deck activity, that would imply that en enemy was sighted and therefore within reach of "normal" scout planes.

As I have suggested in an earlier posting its main mission was probably not, or should not be, that of flying around in the ocean looking for other ships. That
should be the mission of the SBDs with its designated observer.

If we had the empty weight of this Wildcat configuration we could analyze the operational "flyability" of the aircraft.

Fred






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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 2:23:22 PM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

That I very much doubt considering, as I understand it, that armour and weapons were removed. Added weight was wing tanks, camera and auto-pilot. Which is why I think it would be interesting to know the exact empty weight of the version in question.



If you're mentioning things like weapons and cameras for the F4F, then you probably don't understand how an american aircraft's empty weight was
determined during WWII. Its the same empty weight that appears in WWII references as well.


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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 2:49:44 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

That I very much doubt considering, as I understand it, that armour and weapons were removed. Added weight was wing tanks, camera and auto-pilot. Which is why I think it would be interesting to know the exact empty weight of the version in question.



If you're mentioning things like weapons and cameras for the F4F, then you probably don't understand how an american aircraft's empty weight was
determined during WWII. Its the same empty weight that appears in WWII references as well.


If so, maybe you could be so kind as to explain how American aircraft empty weight was determined during WW2..? I'd appreciate that very much.

Fred


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 3:05:05 PM   
m10bob


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A matter of trivia..Saw the mention of "auto pilot" above.
Non-pilots may not know that in the old days before an auto pilot was invented, but a plane might still be able to "fly itself" for a time.

If there was little or no wind,and no areas of updrafts/downdrafts...a plane will fly straight so long as you set your trim tabs properly...A casual check of the horizon should suffice for a long time, depending on those flight conditions and skill of the pilot.
Single engine planes obtained true auto-pilot capabilities after the multi engined planes got them.

During WW2, especially in the Pacific...if a fighter squadron transferred to a distant base...it was common they would be led by a single multi-engined plane....like a Hudson...to lead them to their new base.

< Message edited by m10bob -- 10/23/2016 10:14:59 PM >


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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 3:31:21 PM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

If so, maybe you could be so kind as to explain how American aircraft empty weight was determined during WW2..? I'd appreciate that very much.

Fred



The USN asked Grumman in 1941 for a version of the Wildcat that could fulfill the role of a very long range carrier recon aircraft.
The USN tested Grumman's F4F-7 in early '42 and found it disappointing for its intended role. Examples of the aircraft were then
placed with carriers for the Guadalcanal Invasion in the hope it could still be of some use. That too seemed a bust.

So it seems all you are doing here is trying to reinvent the square wheel.

However, since you asked, the empty weight of an aircraft is its manufacturers "as built" weight, that is without the additional weight
an operator would add for a normal combat use. So for the F4F-7's empty weight, subtract from 10,328lbs the weight of the pilot and his
personal belongings, fuel, oil, comms and navigation equipment, autopilot, camera and various miscellaneous equipment like oxygen tanks,
inflatable raft, etc.

For an F4F-3, you would also subtract the weight of the armament (but strangely not the weight of the armor).

Edit - On further thought, The F4F-7's autopilot weight could well have been part of the official empty weight as it would seem a fairly
complex item to be installed post manufacture. Without seeing a breakdown of the official empty weight of some other aircraft that
carried it (like a B-17), it is going to be hard to determine.



< Message edited by Buckrock -- 10/23/2016 4:01:08 PM >


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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 4:19:48 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

If so, maybe you could be so kind as to explain how American aircraft empty weight was determined during WW2..? I'd appreciate that very much.

Fred



The USN asked Grumman in 1941 for a version of the Wildcat that could fulfill the role of a very long range carrier recon aircraft.
The USN tested Grumman's F4F-7 in early '42 and found it disappointing for its intended role. Examples of the aircraft were then
placed with carriers for the Guadalcanal Invasion in the hope it could still be of some use. That too seemed a bust.

So it seems all you are doing here is trying to reinvent the square wheel.

However, since you asked, the empty weight of an aircraft is its manufacturers "as built" weight, that is without the additional weight
an operator would add for a normal combat use. So for the F4F-7's empty weight, subtract from 10,328lbs the weight of the pilot and his
personal belongings, fuel, oil, comms and navigation equipment, autopilot, camera and various miscellaneous equipment like oxygen tanks,
inflatable raft, etc.

For an F4F-3, you would also subtract the weight of the armament (but strangely not the weight of the armor).

Thank you, come to think of it, it would have been more correct by me to use the expression "operational empty weight" - i.e. without fuel.

Was there ever a "square wheel".......?

Anyway, the best way to do this is to work upwards, that is from "empty weight" - as explained by you. I have complete, and detailed, weights
on many different types but for the Wildcat only the "main" weights.

First, a few parameters that have to be decided. As I understand it the basis for the "-7" was the F4F-3, non-foldable wings. I have in front
of me an Aero., Navy Dept. sheet stating that empty weight of the F4F-3 was 5.381 lbs (ferry: 5.228)

Now comes the difficult part - if this information is correct:

Armour, included in the empty weight, was removed - what was the weight of the removed armour?
Aux. tank behind the cockpit area was removed - what was its weight?
Wing tanks, non-self-sealing - approx. 450 gls. capacity were installed (giving a maximum capacity of 555 gls.) - what was the weight of the new tanks?
An F-56 camera was installed where the aux. tank had been before - approximately 75 lbs
An autopilot (type unknown) was added - what was its weight.
Most probably some extra navigational equipment was added - just a hunch - what was its weight?
More oxygen equipment..?...what would that weigh?
Did the F4F-3 have any armour to speak of?

Inputs, or solid info, are appreciated. In the meantime I shall make some very preliminary calculations.

Fred






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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 4:49:58 PM   
Buckrock

 

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Or maybe you could just do some research. Greene's "History of the Grumman F4F Wildcat" seems to be the go to book for every version of
the Wildcat. It may help you avoid some of the wrong assumptions you've already included in your start list, such as the wing tanks
carrying only 450 gallons.

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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 5:14:00 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Or maybe you could just do some research. Greene's "History of the Grumman F4F Wildcat" seems to be the go to book for every version of
the Wildcat. It may help you avoid some of the wrong assumptions you've already included in your start list, such as the wing tanks
carrying only 450 gallons.

Thank you - do you know the exact capacity of the wing tanks?

Fred


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RE: F4F-7 - 10/23/2016 5:45:30 PM   
Buckrock

 

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The more reliable sources (ie those that reference Greene) state it as 555 gallons carried in the wings. And as the quote I gave you earlier
from Lundstrom (who also references Greene) indicates, the total fuel carried for a fully loaded F4F-7 was 685 gallons, contained in the
wings as well as the fuselage tank.

Just a bit of online research would probably save you a lot of wasted effort at this point. You might even find out the weight you're after.
Or even why the USN were so disappointed with the aircraft that they gave it to the poor Marines.

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RE: F4F-7 - 10/24/2016 1:18:39 AM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

The more reliable sources (ie those that reference Greene) state it as 555 gallons carried in the wings. And as the quote I gave you earlier
from Lundstrom (who also references Greene) indicates, the total fuel carried for a fully loaded F4F-7 was 685 gallons, contained in the
wings as well as the fuselage tank.

Just a bit of online research would probably save you a lot of wasted effort at this point. You might even find out the weight you're after.
Or even why the USN were so disappointed with the aircraft that they gave it to the poor Marines.


Thank you, I asked specifically because other sources state total fuel as 555 gls. There might be some misunderstanding, that the main tank,
because it is located in the center wing area, under the cockpit, is understood as "in the wings" (it held approx 105 gls.). Also the aux.
tank (behind the cockpit) was allegedly removed to make space for the camera (this tank held approx. 47 gls.)

This should add up to approx. 450 gls. for the newly installed wing tanks. Or I could be wrong. I have ordered a technical manual for the F4F-3
to get a better picture of it.

Fred






_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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Post #: 81
RE: F4F-7 - 10/24/2016 8:34:03 AM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros
Thank you,....

LOL. You mean thanks but no thanks. For what it's worth, the information I'm passing on is based on official Grumman figures not on someone's
imagination.

quote:


I asked specifically because other sources state total fuel as 555 gls. There might be some misunderstanding, that the main tank,
because it is located in the center wing area, under the cockpit, is understood as "in the wings" (it held approx 105 gls.). Also the aux.
tank (behind the cockpit) was allegedly removed to make space for the camera (this tank held approx. 47 gls.)

I think there is definitely a misunderstanding. The main tank sat in the fuselage below the pilot's seat position. Any source that could
confuse that for "in the wings" of an F4F would not be a source worth using.

quote:


This should add up to approx. 450 gls. for the newly installed wing tanks. Or I could be wrong. I have ordered a technical manual for the F4F-3
to get a better picture of it.

Logic would say you are either wrong about that wing capacity or else the F4F-7 compared to its fighter stablemates really was overweight
even when unfueled. And if you're using approximates for the F4F-7's fuel capacity, you'll never be able to unravel its weight.

However I'm sure the F4F-3 tech manual will get you going in the right direction.


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Post #: 82
RE: F4F-7 - 10/24/2016 10:58:17 AM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros
Thank you,....

LOL. You mean thanks but no thanks. For what it's worth, the information I'm passing on is based on official Grumman figures not on someone's
imagination.

Take it as you like. That said, I have the JustFlight info and I see now that I didn't read it properly. Your numbers were correct - as far as
JustFlight goes, anyway....

Fred


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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Post #: 83
RE: F4F-7 - 10/24/2016 3:18:20 PM   
m10bob


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Funny how innocent questions can provoke hot responses amongst friends.

Anyway, here is a good site with good info on the entire F4F family.

http://www.uswarplanes.net/wildcat.html

In research, I learned the F4F7 did have an autopilot, but not other models.

**I also learned ALL USN carrier borne planes enjoyed an advantage the Japanese never had. The American planes had a homing device on their planes which could detect a signal from their carriers within approx 60 miles, and each carrier had its' own frequency, which certainly aided in even night recoveries!

You will note some of these planes (like the Martlets and F4f7) saved weight with fixed wings which allowed an extra 55 gallons of fuel.

Here is my two cents...We gamers might even find a way to simulate that "homing device" into the game by adding a notch to the planes' armor rating...or something?

Regarding Auto-pilots...The TBF/TBM series all had them, as did the SBD's and Helldivers.

< Message edited by m10bob -- 10/24/2016 3:21:52 PM >


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Post #: 84
RE: F4F-7 - 10/24/2016 3:54:04 PM   
Buckrock

 

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While the website covers all the Wildcat models, I think it would lack the detail for what Leandros is attempting.

And the USN homing device you mentioned had a theoretical range determined by a receiving aircraft's altitude and atmospheric conditions.
At 20,000 ft, an aircraft could pick up the signal over 200 miles away if the war gods were in a generous mood.

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Post #: 85
RE: F4F-7 - 10/24/2016 3:57:12 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

While the website covers all the Wildcat models, I think it would lack the detail for what Leandros is attempting.

And the USN homing device you mentioned had a theoretical range determined by a receiving aircraft's altitude and atmospheric conditions.
At 20,000 ft, an aircraft could pick up the signal over 200 miles away if the war gods were in a generous mood.


At the bottom of that site is a link to the main home page...Many other planes but nothing on the old Devestator?...

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Post #: 86
RE: F4F-7 - 10/28/2016 9:49:29 PM   
Leandros


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Grumman F4F-3P and F4F-7

I’ve done some home-work on this. It interests me, also because there are so many discrepancies between the various available sources - and postings here. My main references are a couple of Grumman manuals on the F4F-3, Greene and Denn’s publications and excerpts from a VMO-251 web-site.

Before I get back to technical details I’d just like to clear up the (lack of) connection between the -3P and the -7, they were, as mentioned here in another posting, quite different airplanes, originating from different needs. The -3P was not dropped on the Marines because the Navy didn’t need it or wanted to use it.

The -3P was an emergency project, originating from a need created by the upcoming US counter-strike into The Solomons (Guadalcanal). The planners of that operation needed (photographic) information on the enemy positions there, and the Navy had little resources available for the purpose. A simple rebuild of some F4F-3s was the result and the Marines VMO-251 (M: Miscellaneous, O: Observation) squadron was hastily equipped with these and sent to the South Pacific.

The main modification of F4F-3P was the removal of the auxiliary fuel tank behind the cockpit, reducing the fuel capacity to 117 gls., and the installation of a Fairchild F-56 camera in its position. Weapons were retained but one source states that two of the wing guns were removed to lighten it – which was supposed to be done when flown as a bomber, too.

As it were, VMO-251’s first station was Noumea, New Caledonia, too far away for the modified Wildcat to reach The Solomons. They were instead used for the defense of that base. The same when they moved north to Esperito Santo, closer to the Solomons. Even from there they could not fly their original missions. From there the history is somewhat clouded but at least some of them probably participated in the defense of Henderson field, Guadalcanal.

Their photo missions were finally fulfilled by borrowing B-17’s from MacArthur’s “Air Force”, with VMO-251 personnel manning the cameras.

The -7 was a much more advanced project and meant to be used from carriers. To that I would like to add that one doesn’t have to fly all missions with maximum fuel….

The main modifications were:

To make the wings “wet”, in effect using wing space for fuel - no tanks as such, resulting in a fuel capacity of 555 US gallons in the wings.
Removal of the auxiliary tank – normally holding 27 US gallons (with self-sealing installed), to make space for a camera.
Installation of a Fairchild F-56 camera behind and little to the left of the cockpit
No armaments
Removal of pilot and oil tank armour. If this is to be taken all the way it would also result in 13 gallons increase in fuel capacity in the center (old main) tank – by removal of the self-sealing materials. Most probable as this was also known to contaminate the fuel.
Installation of a Sperry autopilot
Installation of a double fuel-dump system
Installation of an extra oil tank

Notes: As a standard the F4F—3 had a GF-5 radio installation with a special radio direction finder incorporated. Would the -7 have had any additional navigation equipment?

And, for those worried about this, the F4F had a “relief tube” as standard. Mounted under the seat, emptying through the bottom of the plane.

The only actual weight I have for the -7 is the allowable MTOW – 10.328 lbs. and the “empty” weight (Greene). What would have been nice to have is its “operational” empty weight. That is, “gross” - less fuel.

We can, of course, do it the simple way. If we presume that the MTOW was finalized at 10.328 lbs simply to get weight space for the actual fuel tankage, the Operational Empty Weight would be: 6.300 lbs. To reach that number I have retracted 685 gls. fuel (4.080 lbs.) – self-sealing material removed from the “center” tank, increasing its capacity marginally.

This looks reasonable. Standard (normal fighter) gross weight for the F4F-3 was 6.864 lbs inclusive of armour, self-sealing tanks, pilot and his paraphernalias, 110 gls. of fuel (660 lbs.), weapons and some ammo (526 lbs.), flotation gear, etc. Greene, in Profile Publications no. 53, quotes “empty” weight for F4F-7 as 5.456 lbs. That is 240 lbs more than what he quotes for the “normal” F4F-3A, but the -7 would not have weight additions for armament. This adds up to a little more than 500 lbs., depending on how much ammo you load up with. It is not known whether Greene’s empty weight on the “normal” Wildcat included armour. What this means is that the modifications weighed more than the removal of armor, armaments and flotation gear. It is not known whether the empty weight includes the camera, approx. 60 lbs. Radios, etc., are normally not included in the “empty” weight.

To see it from another perspective, if the only difference in added “operational” weight was armaments, the F4F-7 would have an advantage (in being lighter) in OEW (four MG’s and “normal” fighter ammo load = 526 lbs.).

I shall elaborate a little on this in a while.

Fred


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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Post #: 87
RE: F4F-7 - 10/28/2016 11:20:39 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

Marines VMO-251 (M: Miscellaneous, O: Observation)

Don't know about the rest of the information, but the "M" in the designation of Marine squadrons was/is for "Marine" AFAIK. You will note, for example, that all the Marine squadrons have an "M" in the designation. For example, VF is a USN fighter squadron while VMF is a USMC fighter squadron. The same pertains to other types.

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Post #: 88
RE: F4F-7 - 10/28/2016 11:34:59 PM   
Leandros


Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

Marines VMO-251 (M: Miscellaneous, O: Observation)

Don't know about the rest of the information, but the "M" in the designation of Marine squadrons was/is for "Marine" AFAIK. You will note, for example, that all the Marine squadrons have an "M" in the designation. For example, VF is a USN fighter squadron while VMF is a USMC fighter squadron. The same pertains to other types.

Yes, you're right - it should either be "M" or "O" as the last letter.

Thank you!

Fred


< Message edited by Leandros -- 10/28/2016 11:35:55 PM >


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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Post #: 89
RE: F4F-7 - 10/29/2016 2:56:55 PM   
Buckrock

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 3/16/2012
From: Not all there
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

Grumman F4F-3P and F4F-7

I’ve done some home-work on this. It interests me, also because there are so many discrepancies between the various available sources - and postings here. My main references are a couple of Grumman manuals on the F4F-3, Greene and Denn’s publications and excerpts from a VMO-251 web-site.

Before I get back to technical details I’d just like to clear up the (lack of) connection between the -3P and the -7, they were, as mentioned here in another posting, quite different airplanes, originating from different needs. The -3P was not dropped on the Marines because the Navy didn’t need it or wanted to use it.

Since you're focusing on the two versions, its probably worth noting one other interesting difference. The Marine F4F-3P was actually used
for carrier reconnaissance missions during its career while the naval F4F-7 never was despite it being designed for that specific role.

quote:


The -3P was an emergency project, originating from a need created by the upcoming US counter-strike into The Solomons (Guadalcanal). The planners of that operation needed (photographic) information on the enemy positions there, and the Navy had little resources available for the purpose. A simple rebuild of some F4F-3s was the result and the Marines VMO-251 (M: Miscellaneous, O: Observation) squadron was hastily equipped with these and sent to the South Pacific.

I'm not sure it could be called an emergency project. VMO units were supposed to contain at least some camera equipped aircraft. According
to VMO-251's records, it received the first F4F-3s early in April '42 and the first photo-recon modifications were ordered before the end of that
month. On the other hand, the detail planning for Operation Watchtower (Guadalcanal/Tulagi) was only begun after the Battle of Midway.

quote:


Their photo missions were finally fulfilled by borrowing B-17’s from MacArthur’s “Air Force”, with VMO-251 personnel manning the cameras.

The B-17s didn't have to be borrowed from Mac. SOPAC command had its own 11th BG carry out the missions.

quote:


The -7 was a much more advanced project and meant to be used from carriers. To that I would like to add that one doesn’t have to fly all missions with maximum fuel….

Have you factored in the impact on the narrow stance F4F of large fuel loads shifting in partially filled wing tanks during take-off? It was
remarked upon during initial testing at NAS Anacostia, in NAFC ferry pilot reports and in a Saratoga pilot's comments on his 5 hour "jaunt"
in a F4F-7 on July 8th '42. It didn't sound favourable.

quote:


Notes: As a standard the F4F—3 had a GF-5 radio installation with a special radio direction finder incorporated. Would the -7 have had any additional navigation equipment?

Like much of the F4F's other radio equipment in '42, the early GF/RU units had a poor reputation in regards to reliability. In carrier combat
reports of the period, signal strength rather than bearing was the only factor mentioned as being useful. And that still required a USN TF to
broadcast on an intermediate frequency, something they would be loathe to do other than for very short durations. Dead reckoning with a
final assist by the relatively reliable YE/ZB VHF beacon would be the most likely navigation method for a F4F pilot to find his carrier.

As for the F4F-7, there is no mention in the VF reports or those who received the aircraft as a navy hand-me-down (VMO-251 and VMD-154) of
it having any special navigation equipment beyond that of a standard F4F. It's worth noting too that when the ex-navy F4F-7s were flown by
VMO-251 from the New Hebrides to Guadalcanal to begin operations, they had to be guided to their destination by a B-17 for the length of the
600 mile flight, just like the F4F-4's (with drop tanks) were.

quote:


I shall elaborate a little on this in a while.

Fred

A few other things to consider before you muse further on this nimble little beast's ability to dance past a frustrated enemy. Firstly, the
F4F-7 suffered more aerodynamic drag due to its fuel dump outlets than a F4F-3 suffered from its wing guns, so you may find that the F4F-7s
top speed was still inferior to the F4F-3 even when lighter.

Secondly, any long range missions launched from a USN carrier well outside the limits of Japanese patrol aircraft range would likely have required
the F4F-7 to still be carrying a large weight of fuel when it reached the target.

And finally, have you actually checked the altitude at which the navy needed the F4F-7 to take its happy snaps of the enemy? It may not have been
what you think it is.



Edited - because Marine VMD units probably don't want to be called VD units.


< Message edited by Buckrock -- 10/30/2016 7:09:33 PM >


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