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Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 5:05:30 AM   
kirk23


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Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline 		So far I have not seen any Waffen SS units in the game, will they be making an appearance on the map in any shape or form?

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 11/13/2016 5:10:06 AM >

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 9:46:09 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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Status: offline 		There is no specific unit type called Waffen SS so they don't make an appearance as such. There is however nothing stopping those wanting to see Waffen SS units in the game from renaming units accordingly.

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 2:08:12 PM   
IckieStickie


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From: UK
Status: offline 		Sorry if i don't get it,but why have you not included SS Troops?Is this just a Whermacht Army?Surely not?Just re-editing isnt going to cut it,if they still look exactly the same as the whermacht units.I'm actually dreading your reply now as ive been really looking forwards to this game for such along time.

< Message edited by IckieStickie -- 11/13/2016 2:13:43 PM >

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 2:35:08 PM   
taffjones

 

Posts: 346
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Status: offline 		It might be something to do with the law's in Germany about Nazi symbols. By having SS units the game may not be able to be sold in Germany?
Panzer Corps got around the problem by introducing SE (Special Elite) units with Camo skins and slightly improved stat's, compared to regular units.
But this is just a guess based on a discussion on this subject on the Panzer Corps forum over on Slitherine.

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 4:44:19 PM   
ILCK

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2004
Status: offline 		I was wondering if this was a way to not have "Nazi" units in the game. They would, in practice I guess, work much like the Russian Shock armies.

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 6:17:22 PM   
Rosseau

 

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Status: offline 		SC2 Assault on Communism had a separate unit type dubbed Waffen SS.

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 6:39:24 PM   
Franciscus


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Status: offline 		This does not make any sense ! Specially after DC:Barbarossa that not only has waffen SS units on map but was even capable of depicting in an adult, elegant way, the so called "dirty war".

I think now I will pass this game, unfortunately

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 11/13/2016 6:40:14 PM >

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 7:31:19 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Status: offline 		Just to be a bit clearer, there are units within the game, e.g. the Florian Geyer Cavalry Division and Special Forces units that represent what were in real life SS units.

These can be deployed within their relevant unit types, but we don't use the SS acronym as their presence in the game isn't to everyone's taste.

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 8:04:49 PM   
ILCK

 

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Status: offline 		I can understand this is a sensitive issue. I know I can rename any formation from what I have seen but would I be able to create a new German unit type that would simulate the added strength the Waffen units had?

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 8:05:33 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

I think now I will pass this game


Don't throw the baby out with the bath water ! And don't move to Canada because Trump is President !

The unit counters are easily renamed to whatever you want right in the game. For an OOB OCD person like me, this is an awesome feature ! So you can make the entire Wehrmacht Waffen SS if you like. The counters themselves don't need to look different, but if you so desire this aspect is mod-able in the editor.

So for the price of admission you can have the bath, the water, the baby and the Trump ! SC3 is awesome !!

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 9:32:10 PM   
Ironclad

 

Posts: 1924
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Status: offline 		Its not a game changer for me, the game looks great and I'm still planning to get it on release but it does seem weird not to have SS units (including enhanced combat capability as appropriate). I do hope this isn't influenced by present day sensitivities or legal/commercial considerations applicable in Germany as that shouldn't dictate what's available in the UK/USA and other countries.

If there is a demand amongst players and I suspect there would be for the inclusion of such units perhaps Matrix/Slitherine and the Development team can have a rethink and perhaps introduce them along with Soviet Guard units (if not present now) in a future update as has been done for CEAW/Grand Strategy.

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/13/2016 11:13:42 PM   
Rosseau

 

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Status: offline 		Again, the Waffen SS played a large role in the SC2 Assault on Communism design. This is circa 2011-2012, I believe. Since then, if any country's law prohibited use of that label, it is understandable it is deleted in the official release, just to ensure all customers can buy the game. Plus, as said above, you can edit to your heart's content.

If the SS was removed due to the increased "sensitivities" of our politically correct but morally corrupt society, then I would object. Should we block out the SS insignia we may see in an old B/W WW2 film clip, when the most debased and violent behaviors are readily available to view on TV and the internet?

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 1:27:55 AM   
bo

 

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Status: offline 		I could not have said it better rosseau, but I could care less whether the SS units are in the game or not, from a game standpoint it would have been nice if they had been included not just in name but maybe the counter could have been in black. History is history, and those units were part of history and history cannot be changed or altered

From Matrix's standpoint money is the issue as it should be, and if they had put SS units in the game and it bothered politically correct people in the US and Germany. Oh well!

Do what they did at the University of Penn, with each game sold, hand out puppies and coloring books to people who disagreed with putting these units in the game, like they did with students who did not like the outcome of the US election

What is dreadful is that these students who need a safe place and space are someday going to run this country, thank the lord because of my age I will not have to be here to see these idiots ruin my country.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 11/14/2016 2:02:20 AM >

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 1:39:21 AM   
kirk23


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From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline 		The reason I asked about Waffen SS units in the game,was mainly because I like the BLACK counters that most games use to represent the SS forces,I might be wrong but I believe there were roundabout 38 SS Panzer Divisions.

I suppose I will just have to add them via the editor.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 11/14/2016 1:47:07 AM >

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 1:43:02 AM   
bo

 

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Status: offline 		It was an excellent question and it should have been asked kirk.

Bo

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 1:55:20 AM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

Just to be a bit clearer, there are units within the game, e.g. the Florian Geyer Cavalry Division and Special Forces units that represent what were in real life SS units.

These can be deployed within their relevant unit types, but we don't use the SS acronym as their presence in the game isn't to everyone's taste.


Sorry Bill, not trying to be argumenative but I could care less about anyone's feelings or their taste, only because the SS divisions are etched in history books and history cannot be changed or altered.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 11/14/2016 2:03:27 AM >

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 6:32:41 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		Well this is a pretty depressing thread.

Matrix is an important company in the computer games market for the simple reason that they publish serious wargames that the more mainstream companies do not cater for. There is a mix of games – from Grognard to easier levels – to no doubt broaden the appeal, but I thought the serious wargamer remains the focus.

As such, I am at a total loss here. A total loss.

Why would the appearance of, for example, the 2nd SS Panzer Corps on the Eastern Front or the 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy ‘not be to the taste’ of the sort of person that would play this game? This makes no sense. How does the thought process work? Yes I would really like to play a World War II game, but I don’t want to see any nastiness, because that would upset me too much. I mean circa 50m people died, there was wholesale slaughter of prisoners, genocide, millions died of starvation, atomic bombing, fire bombing, unrestricted submarine warfare resulting in the drowning of women and children, you name it – it was carried out. That’s all fine, I just hope they don’t show an SS unit!

As rosseau said, if you do not include something in order to comply with laws e.g. the Swastika, that is one thing, but to unilaterally decide that key units of the German Army cannot be shown in a serious World War II game is beyond belief.

Where does it end? At what point do wargames stop mentioning Hitler altogether? It cannot be far away. And once you go down that route, isn’t it unfair to mention the Germans? I mean think about it. You won’t mention the SS because they were ‘nasty people who did nasty things’. So what about Hitler? What about Tojo? What about Stalin? If you think the Waffen SS alone did ‘nasty things’ then what about the regular army troops and their actions on the Eastern Front? On the basis that the SS are not shown, I trust you will not be including submarines? I don’t want to see any Japanese troops in China, I hope V-weapons and 4-engined bombers are not present either.

This is a very sad development – and for a supposedly serious publisher – a very worrying one.


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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 6:53:58 AM   
Franciscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well this is a pretty depressing thread.

Matrix is an important company in the computer games market for the simple reason that they publish serious wargames that the more mainstream companies do not cater for. There is a mix of games – from Grognard to easier levels – to no doubt broaden the appeal, but I thought the serious wargamer remains the focus.

As such, I am at a total loss here. A total loss.

Why would the appearance of, for example, the 2nd SS Panzer Corps on the Eastern Front or the 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy ‘not be to the taste’ of the sort of person that would play this game? This makes no sense. How does the thought process work? Yes I would really like to play a World War II game, but I don’t want to see any nastiness, because that would upset me too much. I mean circa 50m people died, there was wholesale slaughter of prisoners, genocide, millions died of starvation, atomic bombing, fire bombing, unrestricted submarine warfare resulting in the drowning of women and children, you name it – it was carried out. That’s all fine, I just hope they don’t show an SS unit!

As rosseau said, if you do not include something in order to comply with laws e.g. the Swastika, that is one thing, but to unilaterally decide that key units of the German Army cannot be shown in a serious World War II game is beyond belief.

Where does it end? At what point do wargames stop mentioning Hitler altogether? It cannot be far away. And once you go down that route, isn’t it unfair to mention the Germans? I mean think about it. You won’t mention the SS because they were ‘nasty people who did nasty things’. So what about Hitler? What about Tojo? What about Stalin? If you think the Waffen SS alone did ‘nasty things’ then what about the regular army troops and their actions on the Eastern Front? On the basis that the SS are not shown, I trust you will not be including submarines? I don’t want to see any Japanese troops in China, I hope V-weapons and 4-engined bombers are not present either.

This is a very sad development – and for a supposedly serious publisher – a very worrying one.



+ 1

Only I am not sure it's Matrix (publisher) fault...I mean, a year ago they published to deserved acclaim DC:B, where we have decisions involving actions of einzatsgruppen !

This is probably a designer's choice - a very poor one, IMHO


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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 7:01:02 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
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From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well this is a pretty depressing thread.

Matrix is an important company in the computer games market for the simple reason that they publish serious wargames that the more mainstream companies do not cater for. There is a mix of games – from Grognard to easier levels – to no doubt broaden the appeal, but I thought the serious wargamer remains the focus.

As such, I am at a total loss here. A total loss.

Why would the appearance of, for example, the 2nd SS Panzer Corps on the Eastern Front or the 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy ‘not be to the taste’ of the sort of person that would play this game? This makes no sense. How does the thought process work? Yes I would really like to play a World War II game, but I don’t want to see any nastiness, because that would upset me too much. I mean circa 50m people died, there was wholesale slaughter of prisoners, genocide, millions died of starvation, atomic bombing, fire bombing, unrestricted submarine warfare resulting in the drowning of women and children, you name it – it was carried out. That’s all fine, I just hope they don’t show an SS unit!

As rosseau said, if you do not include something in order to comply with laws e.g. the Swastika, that is one thing, but to unilaterally decide that key units of the German Army cannot be shown in a serious World War II game is beyond belief.

Where does it end? At what point do wargames stop mentioning Hitler altogether? It cannot be far away. And once you go down that route, isn’t it unfair to mention the Germans? I mean think about it. You won’t mention the SS because they were ‘nasty people who did nasty things’. So what about Hitler? What about Tojo? What about Stalin? If you think the Waffen SS alone did ‘nasty things’ then what about the regular army troops and their actions on the Eastern Front? On the basis that the SS are not shown, I trust you will not be including submarines? I don’t want to see any Japanese troops in China, I hope V-weapons and 4-engined bombers are not present either.

This is a very sad development – and for a supposedly serious publisher – a very worrying one.



+ 1

Only I am not sure it's Matrix (publisher) fault...I mean, a year ago they published to deserved acclaim DC:B, where we have decisions involving actions of einzatsgruppen !

This is probably a designer's choice - a very poor one, IMHO

warspite1

Fair point. I guess it reflects badly on Matrix because they are the publisher - its their decision to publish, not to design the game.


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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 9:17:22 AM   
RodyMetal


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Status: offline 		I am not sure, who is seeing it as sensitive thing? Any wargamer? I doubt it.
I was happy with DC:B bold move to include more realistic WW2 activities , I thought we had progress and people start to view WW2 as part of any other historic event, the only prevention is some laws which I believe they will be removed in matter of time once majority agree that certain issues are not offensive to anyone anymore.

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 12:15:11 PM   
Kharkov

 

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From: Birmingham
Status: offline 		So is Matrix putting a block on showing SS units in the game?? WTF!

This leads to another question : Are they elite units in the game?

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 1:03:59 PM   
DTC666


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Status: offline 		Any wargame that claims to WWII and does not include the correct mix of units cannot be taken seriously. Just because German Law is trying to re write history by denying the SS existed is not a reason to not include the SS. They were there. Whats next the Pacific war without the Japanese because the may be offended?

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 1:17:13 PM   
ILCK

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RodyMetal

I am not sure, who is seeing it as sensitive thing? Any wargamer? I doubt it.
I was happy with DC:B bold move to include more realistic WW2 activities , I thought we had progress and people start to view WW2 as part of any other historic event, the only prevention is some laws which I believe they will be removed in matter of time once majority agree that certain issues are not offensive to anyone anymore.



Havent played DCB yet, that sounds interesting. I would actually, for example, be ok if there was an event that charged the German player 20 MPP towards prosecution of the Final Solution since in fact it was a drain on German resources.

I do though get that when you are making business decisions you make the lowest common denominator decision and, especially with an editor, why make a decision that can offend part of your potential customer base. I don't think in OOB you can buy SS squads..at least not so far so this isn't unprecedented and like OOB SC isn't a detailed simulation.

With the German hate crime laws would merely having SS units be enough to trigger them given that other games like the Decisive Battle games, even the one I have, does include it?

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 1:21:15 PM   
kirk23


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Status: offline 		The 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich was an elite division of the Nazi Waffen-SS during World War II. It was one of the thirty-eight divisions fielded by the Waffen-SS. Das Reich served during the invasion of France and took part in several major battles on the Eastern Front, including in the Battle of Prokhorovka against the 5th Guards Tank Army at the Battle of Kursk. It was then transferred to the West and took part in the fighting in Normandy and the Battle of the Bulge, ending the war in Hungary and Austria.

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 1:27:08 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		The game is supposed to have an easy to use editor. Just add Waffen SS units if you want them.

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 1:41:31 PM   
kirk23


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Status: offline 		Yes altering the name of units is easy in the editor,but that ain't enough,SS Army,Corps and Division's were for the most part better equipped etc,plus you would have to create new Black Unit counters to represent them,since that is the norm with the vast majority of world war 2 wargames.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 11/14/2016 1:48:05 PM >

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 1:56:15 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the feedback here everyone one and I just wanted to quickly jump in here and mention that I honestly can't even remember the last time the topic of the Waffen SS has even come up, internally or externally such as a thread like this, when it comes to the Strategic Command series.

I only mention that since as far as I remember the game series has never included Waffen SS units (I had to double check Assault on Communism as that was mentioned above and I don't see them there either) and I believe this was based on a decision probably from about 15 years ago where some felt their inclusion had too much of a negative connotation as Bill alluded to above as well. After that we probably just moved on to the other million and one things that need to get included/done/finished for each game we produce.

Essentially, our only point here is that this was never a recent topic of internal discussion between the development team, development team and Matrix, and/or even in Beta, and that they never at one time existed and were then removed. I really couldn't tell you what German law has to say about them either to be honest.

With this in mind, I hope it paints a picture that this was not something we purposefully did for this game just to upset people one way or the other, as it has always been this way on our end.

Now that being said, part of the reason is simply due to the design and scale of the game where each nation has the same general types, i.e. Divisions, Corps, Army types and so on, with nation specific stats to reflect their differences, and we don't currently include specialized unit types (on a per country basis) that would allow for separate units such as the Waffen SS for the Germans. Again, for the reason for this, you'd have to consider the current scale of the game, and to go back to the early design decision from 15 years ago and the lack of general request for these specific unit types since then in game.

Also, and to confirm, we do include Special Forces units in game, which can be considered Elite units, and as Bill mentioned as well, these can be purchased and renamed as desired and they have their own look and patterns relative to the other units in game. The game can also be fully modded and some creative techniques can be used to add some specific unit types, provided there are enough unused unit type slots in a particular campaign, and we've done this to include Shock units for the Soviets and so on.

Hope this helps,
Hubert







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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 5:24:26 PM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		Hi Hubert, thanks for the helpful response.

I respond in two areas:

Firstly: Apologies I assumed that the lack of such units was a new development but I guess your response confirms that not only is this not the case, but that if this game series has been selling well for 15-years or whatever then that pretty much confirms you have your target audience right. That is fair enough and it’s horses for courses isn’t it?

Secondly: Notwithstanding the above though (and fully accepting it is not an issue for this game based on its success historically) I still found the sentiment expressed very, very strange – not to mention a tad bewildering. Why?

Well because of the idea that including SS units creates a ‘negative connotation’ or that it is not to ‘everyone’s tastes’. To explore what that means, just take an example of a wargamer playing an Eastern Front game or scenario.

1. Said player sets up his German units ready to kick in the whole rotten edifice, beginning on 22nd June 1941. But wait, what’s this? What are these Black units? Ugh – Waffen SS. Said player, having watched a few WWII documentaries or maybe read a book or two, knows ‘all about’ the SS. Horrified he decides to stop playing, uninstall the game and go and do something else that will be less upsetting.

2. Exactly the same player – having watched exactly the same programs and read exactly the same books. He sets up his grey German units and sits back ready to what? This person remember knows sufficient about the SS in WWII that he does not want to play with them, and so presumably he knows what his SS-free German army is going to do; namely invade the Soviet Union. But because his army is SS-free he is at one with himself, this despite the fact that:

- He is about to invade an ally without a declaration of war
- He is about to wage a merciless war on the ‘Untermensch’ Slavs and other equally ‘disgusting’ minorities of that barbaric Communist state in order to satisfy Hitler’s lust for Lebensraum.
- The war he is about to embark on is one of annihilation
- When his stack of grey units attacks and wins against a stack of Brown units, those brown units are removed from the map. They are removed either because they have been killed or they have surrendered. In doing the latter they are effectively consigning themselves to a long slow miserable death from starvation or exhaustion.
- As the grey units move into the Baltic States, Belorussia and the Ukraine they are followed by Einsatzgruppen who, in conjunction with the local residents, will murder Jews and any other ‘undesirable’ by the hundreds of thousands – at least until a more ‘efficient’ method is found…..

I don’t say the above to give you a lesson in what you already know, but do so to try and work through and understand the thinking. Sure, the German player is not actually doing any of the above in game – but then he is not doing any of the above with black SS units either. In fact he is doing nothing different.

I simply don’t understand how anyone that is likely to be interested in playing this game can be so selective over what is or isn’t acceptable.

The only other thing I would say – and this is a general point not specific to this game - is that there are gamers out there that don’t want (or aren’t able) to muck around in the editor or whatever to change units, maps and stuff. Those in that camp hope instead that the makers of the game do the job in the first place . Although as all gamers have different tastes you have my sympathy as I guess you are never going to get that right for everyone .

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/14/2016 5:26:32 PM >

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 5:43:29 PM   
jzardos


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Status: offline 		I know the term Nazi is not something to take lightly for many people that still remember the war or have ties to it. However, I just want black counters to represent the SS units. There's no laws against that, trust me I know the laws here. Also, for those what want to don't understand how important the Waffen SS units were on the battlefield, you have no clue on the history of WW2 and specifically German combat units and performance. These units were instrumental for so many battles. I hope that the designers of this game don't become mindless pawns is some silly drama about 'we can't display Waffen SS units and differentiate them by color because it is offensive'. No it's not, it's just the history.

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RE: Waffen SS ? - 11/14/2016 5:54:30 PM   
Franciscus


Posts: 809
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From: Portugal
Status: offline 		I want to thank Hubert for taking the time to chime in and explain the reason for this design choice. I guess that for previous players of the series (I am not one of them) this comes naturally.

I can understand the reasoning, although I do not agree with it. It seems the SC series is maybe much "generic" regarding units on the field for my taste. And no, although having been part of the team of the AJE game series I probably could, I no longer am in the mood of having to go to a game editor to have SS divisions in a game about WW2 in Europe.

My best wishes for the game, though.

Regards

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 11/14/2016 5:59:36 PM >

_____________________________

Former AJE team member

(in reply to jzardos)
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