Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I thought "do not refuel" only worked at ports?

Interesting. Doesn't the AI override when you reach bingo fuel?

Other "tricks":

-Retire
-Chose a start hex that allow the TF to reach the objective at night
-Normal speed
-Set home base to something close so the AI calculates fuel reserves differently
-Choose the shortest ingress/egress (if it is a close call) even if you have to cross enemy hexes or coastal hexes
-Detach escorts that are too low on fuel

So, after reading the manual on the fuel consumption... it is not actually the Full Speed setting itself that determines how much fuel your ships burn. It is the number of hexes moved. I will set to Full to make sure my guys retire as far as possible from the base, although typically the danger area is around only 3-5 hexes from the target base (assuming I knocked out its airfield) so Mission usually suffices.

Also, the home base changing to something else so you can control the direction of the retirement is good.

Direct/Absolute routing settings. Coastal as needed (e.g., to avoid certain hexes).

Do NOT use waypoints.



If you set to "Do Not Refuel", no ships will refuel ever. Even if they hit 0 Endurance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
- They do refuel at waypoints for each waypoint that has refuel instructions. This is true even if a waypoint is at a port.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
- They do refuel at waypoints for each waypoint that has refuel instructions. This is true even if a waypoint is at a port.

Prease to exprain. witpqs-san mean waypoints on protted path?

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I thought "do not refuel" only worked at ports?

Interesting. Doesn't the AI override when you reach bingo fuel?

Other "tricks":

-Retire
-Chose a start hex that allow the TF to reach the objective at night
-Normal speed
-Set home base to something close so the AI calculates fuel reserves differently
-Choose the shortest ingress/egress (if it is a close call) even if you have to cross enemy hexes or coastal hexes
-Detach escorts that are too low on fuel

So, after reading the manual on the fuel consumption... it is not actually the Full Speed setting itself that determines how much fuel your ships burn. It is the number of hexes moved. I will set to Full to make sure my guys retire as far as possible from the base, although typically the danger area is around only 3-5 hexes from the target base (assuming I knocked out its airfield) so Mission usually suffices.

Also, the home base changing to something else so you can control the direction of the retirement is good.

Direct/Absolute routing settings. Coastal as needed (e.g., to avoid certain hexes).

Do NOT use waypoints.



If you set to "Do Not Refuel", no ships will refuel ever. Even if they hit 0 Endurance.

That is false.
- They do refuel "at sea". Even when in port you will notice that the "Refuel at sea" button works.
- They do refuel at waypoints for each waypoint that has refuel instructions. This is true even if a waypoint is at a port.

I do these things routinely and they work fine without glitches.

Just to avoid confusion, note that I am not referring to anything specific to bombardment missions (I think the discussion started out regarding how bombardment TF behave).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I thought "do not refuel" only worked at ports?

Interesting. Doesn't the AI override when you reach bingo fuel?

Other "tricks":

-Retire
-Chose a start hex that allow the TF to reach the objective at night
-Normal speed
-Set home base to something close so the AI calculates fuel reserves differently
-Choose the shortest ingress/egress (if it is a close call) even if you have to cross enemy hexes or coastal hexes
-Detach escorts that are too low on fuel

So, after reading the manual on the fuel consumption... it is not actually the Full Speed setting itself that determines how much fuel your ships burn. It is the number of hexes moved. I will set to Full to make sure my guys retire as far as possible from the base, although typically the danger area is around only 3-5 hexes from the target base (assuming I knocked out its airfield) so Mission usually suffices.

Also, the home base changing to something else so you can control the direction of the retirement is good.

Direct/Absolute routing settings. Coastal as needed (e.g., to avoid certain hexes).

Do NOT use waypoints.



If you set to "Do Not Refuel", no ships will refuel ever. Even if they hit 0 Endurance.

That is false.
- They do refuel "at sea". Even when in port you will notice that the "Refuel at sea" button works.
- They do refuel at waypoints for each waypoint that has refuel instructions. This is true even if a waypoint is at a port.

I do these things routinely and they work fine without glitches.

Just to avoid confusion, note that I am not referring to anything specific to bombardment missions (I think the discussion started out regarding how bombardment TF behave).

I meant the automatic refueling when the ships cross their endurance threshold check for current fuel vs. fuel needed for mission. {See my comments below.} Not the manual refueling that players can do by clicking the button. I've never actually hit bingo fuel doing this, but have had ships get down into the double digits on Endurance on multiple occasions (while the BBs are still up around 8K - plenty of reserve so the auto transfer was not taking place, as intended).

However, with Do Not Refuel set, I can confirm that the Replenish TF from Port button is greyed out until you remove the setting. <- True, this is where the setting is supposed to matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

1/7/44

Big Tent: Mostly logistics today, with good progress made. See map for details.

Roller Coaster: KB and other "power" in the Marshalls, plus a stout enemy TF up near Marcus. John is shifting weight forward. Why? Where's he going? See map for details.

Burma: For most of the New Year, Allied 4EB have been working over enemy strategic targets in Burma and vicinity. I think the oil production in Magwe is all but shut down. The oil refineries at Bangkok and Rangoon have been hit pretty hard. And some other targets (light industry mainly) have also been targeted. I'm not sure whether this has a meaningful affect on John. The hope was to draw a representative portion of his fighters this way. Thus far I don't think he's done so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Peanut Gallery Question:

Death Star will be retiring into the Coral Sea in a couple of weeks. She may then go home to Pearl Harbor, or she may remain in the Oz area for awhile.

Some DS carriers are due upgrades. If DS remains in Oz, I have several upgrade options. Townsville is a size 7 port (and is my preference for upgrades). Sydney is the other good option. Is there benefit to choosing Sydney over Townsville? (Note: Townsville is a size 9 airfield with more than 450 aviation support, so security wouldn't be an issue during the upgrades.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr
The delay is hard coded and is not affected by naval support so as long as the shipyard requirements are met it really does not matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

OK, but even that is false. For example, I create a convoy of Liberty ships at San Francisco with a few SC as escort. The Liberty ships have huge fuel tanks and the SC have ranges of at most ~3,000 miles, some only 1,500 miles. The TF as a whole has much greater range than needed, but the SC will need to refuel at sea many times or they will never reach the destination. I set the TF to "Do not refuel" so that it will not drain fuel from the forward base and send it to the destination. The escorts do refuel as needed. Works every time, without exception.

But wait - what about cases where a TF does *NOT* have so much fuel compared to what it needs? THAT is totally different! I am paraphrasing what happens and what Michael has said: During the refueling cycle, each ship that might provide fuel is checked for how much fuel it has versus how much fuel it needs to complete the mission. If it does not meet a certain threshold, then it will not contribute fuel. That threshold is some amount more than the exact calculation of what it needs. I do not know what the threshold is. The point is that you can have a TF which shows adequate range for a mission but which, after some point in time, will not refuel its shorter-ranged ships.

Make sense?

One thing you can do in some cases (depends on what you are trying to do, etc.) is set up way points at ports along the way. For example, suppose you want to send a TF from San Francisco to unload at Guam without draining fuel from Guam, but the TF does not have adequate range. What you can do set "Do not refuel", then set up a waypoint at Pearl Harbor with the fueling option set to "Full refuel" (I forget if that is the exact wording), and also set "Y" to the option to return via the same waypoints. What will happen is that the TF will refuel at Pearl Harbor, keeping the ships above the threshold where they *will* provide fuel to the small escorts throughout the whole journey. Hope I explained that well enough, I have done it plenty and it works quite well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

OK, but even that is false. For example, I create a convoy of Liberty ships at San Francisco with a few SC as escort. The Liberty ships have huge fuel tanks and the SC have ranges of at most ~3,000 miles, some only 1,500 miles. The TF as a whole has much greater range than needed, but the SC will need to refuel at sea many times or they will never reach the destination. I set the TF to "Do not refuel" so that it will not drain fuel from the forward base and send it to the destination. The escorts do refuel as needed. Works every time, without exception.

But wait - what about cases where a TF does *NOT* have so much fuel compared to what it needs? THAT is totally different! I am paraphrasing what happens and what Michael has said: During the refueling cycle, each ship that might provide fuel is checked for how much fuel it has versus how much fuel it needs to complete the mission. If it does not meet a certain threshold, then it will not contribute fuel. That threshold is some amount more than the exact calculation of what it needs. I do not know what the threshold is. The point is that you can have a TF which shows adequate range for a mission but which, after some point in time, will not refuel its shorter-ranged ships.

Make sense?

One thing you can do in some cases (depends on what you are trying to do, etc.) is set up way points at ports along the way. For example, suppose you want to send a TF from San Francisco to unload at Guam without draining fuel from Guam, but the TF does not have adequate range. What you can do set "Do not refuel", then set up a waypoint at Pearl Harbor with the fueling option set to "Full refuel" (I forget if that is the exact wording), and also set "Y" to the option to return via the same waypoints. What will happen is that the TF will refuel at Pearl Harbor, keeping the ships above the threshold where they *will* provide fuel to the small escorts throughout the whole journey. Hope I explained that well enough, I have done it plenty and it works quite well.

Then I have no explanation for why I can set my BBTFs to do not refuel and have my DDs run down to really low levels of endurance (my steel trap of a memory says 237 Endurance or 200-something) while the BBs have 8000+, with only a few hexes left to go (so nothing to stop the BBs from refueling the DDs when there's not enough fuel to complete mission). We're talking about like 6 hexes left to go. That 237 Endurance would normally trigger the automatic refuel in these conditions. I'm aware of all of the threshold stuff for this automatic refueling - but I've created conditions where they don't apply, so the only explanation for the lack of refueling is that the Do Not Refuel setting took care of it.

Are we running different versions? I run .26a these days.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

OK, but even that is false. For example, I create a convoy of Liberty ships at San Francisco with a few SC as escort. The Liberty ships have huge fuel tanks and the SC have ranges of at most ~3,000 miles, some only 1,500 miles. The TF as a whole has much greater range than needed, but the SC will need to refuel at sea many times or they will never reach the destination. I set the TF to "Do not refuel" so that it will not drain fuel from the forward base and send it to the destination. The escorts do refuel as needed. Works every time, without exception.

But wait - what about cases where a TF does *NOT* have so much fuel compared to what it needs? THAT is totally different! I am paraphrasing what happens and what Michael has said: During the refueling cycle, each ship that might provide fuel is checked for how much fuel it has versus how much fuel it needs to complete the mission. If it does not meet a certain threshold, then it will not contribute fuel. That threshold is some amount more than the exact calculation of what it needs. I do not know what the threshold is. The point is that you can have a TF which shows adequate range for a mission but which, after some point in time, will not refuel its shorter-ranged ships.

Make sense?

One thing you can do in some cases (depends on what you are trying to do, etc.) is set up way points at ports along the way. For example, suppose you want to send a TF from San Francisco to unload at Guam without draining fuel from Guam, but the TF does not have adequate range. What you can do set "Do not refuel", then set up a waypoint at Pearl Harbor with the fueling option set to "Full refuel" (I forget if that is the exact wording), and also set "Y" to the option to return via the same waypoints. What will happen is that the TF will refuel at Pearl Harbor, keeping the ships above the threshold where they *will* provide fuel to the small escorts throughout the whole journey. Hope I explained that well enough, I have done it plenty and it works quite well.

Then I have no explanation for why I can set my BBTFs to do not refuel and have my DDs run down to really low levels of endurance (my steel trap of a memory says 237 Endurance or 200-something) while the BBs have 8000+, with only a few hexes left to go (so nothing to stop the BBs from refueling the DDs when there's not enough fuel to complete mission). We're talking about like 6 hexes left to go. That 237 Endurance would normally trigger the automatic refuel in these conditions. I'm aware of all of the threshold stuff for this automatic refueling - but I've created conditions where they don't apply, so the only explanation for the lack of refueling is that the Do Not Refuel setting took care of it.

Are we running different versions? I run .26a these days.

Maybe the difference is in you Threat Tolerance settings or leader aggression. On the latter, I have noticed that really aggressive leaders will use up more of their ammo in a bombardment before retiring, so I surmise that fuel minimums might be influenced too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

OK, but even that is false. For example, I create a convoy of Liberty ships at San Francisco with a few SC as escort. The Liberty ships have huge fuel tanks and the SC have ranges of at most ~3,000 miles, some only 1,500 miles. The TF as a whole has much greater range than needed, but the SC will need to refuel at sea many times or they will never reach the destination. I set the TF to "Do not refuel" so that it will not drain fuel from the forward base and send it to the destination. The escorts do refuel as needed. Works every time, without exception.

But wait - what about cases where a TF does *NOT* have so much fuel compared to what it needs? THAT is totally different! I am paraphrasing what happens and what Michael has said: During the refueling cycle, each ship that might provide fuel is checked for how much fuel it has versus how much fuel it needs to complete the mission. If it does not meet a certain threshold, then it will not contribute fuel. That threshold is some amount more than the exact calculation of what it needs. I do not know what the threshold is. The point is that you can have a TF which shows adequate range for a mission but which, after some point in time, will not refuel its shorter-ranged ships.

Make sense?

One thing you can do in some cases (depends on what you are trying to do, etc.) is set up way points at ports along the way. For example, suppose you want to send a TF from San Francisco to unload at Guam without draining fuel from Guam, but the TF does not have adequate range. What you can do set "Do not refuel", then set up a waypoint at Pearl Harbor with the fueling option set to "Full refuel" (I forget if that is the exact wording), and also set "Y" to the option to return via the same waypoints. What will happen is that the TF will refuel at Pearl Harbor, keeping the ships above the threshold where they *will* provide fuel to the small escorts throughout the whole journey. Hope I explained that well enough, I have done it plenty and it works quite well.

Then I have no explanation for why I can set my BBTFs to do not refuel and have my DDs run down to really low levels of endurance (my steel trap of a memory says 237 Endurance or 200-something) while the BBs have 8000+, with only a few hexes left to go (so nothing to stop the BBs from refueling the DDs when there's not enough fuel to complete mission). We're talking about like 6 hexes left to go. That 237 Endurance would normally trigger the automatic refuel in these conditions. I'm aware of all of the threshold stuff for this automatic refueling - but I've created conditions where they don't apply, so the only explanation for the lack of refueling is that the Do Not Refuel setting took care of it.

Are we running different versions? I run .26a these days.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I'm running the latest Beta, but it has worked very consistently for me for a really long time. I don't think there have been any recent changes to that stuff.