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Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/18/2016 3:12:33 PM   
Joe D.


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I've been reading Terry Brighton's account comparing the careers of Patton, Montgomery and Rommel -- originally published in the UK as "Masters of Battle...." -- but never realized what a Hitler sycophant the latter was. In fact, Rommel was friends with the Führer until Montgomery's Caen offensive where Rommel might have willingly stopped fighting and surrendered if not for a Brit fighter that strafed his command car.

Although Rommel miraculously survived the attack, he was soon implicated in the plot against Hitler and forced to take poison, or watch his family suffer the consequences. But the extent of Rommel's involvement in the plot is hazy at best. Even Frau Rommel initially denied he had anything to do with the plot. But after the war, the Allies needed to rehabilitate the (West) German Army to join NATO and "there was no better figurehead for 'the Good German,' Field Marshall Rommel...."

However, in 2000 Ralph Giordano's "The Falsehood of Tradition" argued that Field Marshall Rommel was a representative of a criminal regime and therefore a war criminal regardless of what he did or didn't know about the plot against Hitler.

Opinions?

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/18/2016 3:41:38 PM   
Max 86


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Status: offline 		Not sure if I agree with the war criminal part. If that is true then all German officers and NCOs should also be labeled as such for being 'a representative of a criminal regime'. Being on the losing side does not make one a war criminal.

Don't think you can compare him to the Japanese officers that took part in the Nanking atrocity and others too. Evidence of atrocities is a prerequisite for war crimes.

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/18/2016 3:42:17 PM   
Hotschi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


Field Marshall Rommel was a representative of a criminal regime and therefore a war criminal regardless of what he did or didn't know about the plot against Hitler.



I fully agree with Giordano in this. Rommel was a die-hard Nazi up to his very end.

Same goes for the whole July-plot thing; a half-hearted attempt to kill Hitler. When the Wehrmacht was winning, all those who later conspired against Hitler were safely on Hitler's side, licking his boots. If they would really have meant business, they would have attempted to get rid of that bastard way earlier - and not only when it was already clear for the last idiot that the Nazis will lose the war. And did those guys conspire to get rid of the National-Socialist party, regime, and all who were involved in war crimes? Or did they conspire to kill Hitler in order to attempt to achieve a negotiated peace to save their own Nazi-a**es?

I think THAT was rather the case.

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/18/2016 8:51:15 PM   
demyansk


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Status: offline 		Rommel was from the officer caste that followed orders and he followed his star as long as possible. It was most likely in 1943-44 that Rommel noticed the writing on the wall. Remember, in NAZI Germany, personal opinions were kept to yourself. Furthermore, the Army oath to Hitler played a huge role in keeping the soldiers and especially Wehrmacht officers loyal to the bitter end. I believe Rommel - should he have lived, would have been interred and eventually released. I understand many authors have stated that Rommel would have been an individual who could have helped in the reconstruction. He wasn't tainted by being a General on the Eastern Front or with the Waffen SS in Normandy and beyond. The Soviets had no say in this matter. I believe Rommel should have split with his family for the Western Front and decide to save Germany from the last year of the war. That would have been the best plan and perhaps millions would have been saved.

Please remember that in 1940's - no tv, no internet, illegal to listen to foreign radio stations, no social media nothingggggggggggggggggggggg, all press State controlled and all lies. Hindsight is always 20/20 but not a war criminal, not even a member of the Nazi party.

However, all this is subjective so it is a good topic to discuss, that entire 12 year era has 1000's of books written on these years. When you think of it, How many more books on Stalingrad? Darn - I just bought SC3 and it's like my 10th- 15th game on the Eastern front

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/18/2016 9:26:43 PM   
Rosseau

 

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Status: offline 		There are a number of German generals I admire for their bravery and chivalry in comparison to their contemporaries. Rommel would be near the top of that list.

My big issue is his wife was suspicious about the death camps, and he chose to ignore it. As the British say, God and Country, not the other way around.

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/18/2016 9:32:30 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

My big issue is his wife was suspicious about the death camps, and he chose to ignore it.
warspite1

I have no issue with your views on Rommel, but I think you are a little harsh on his wife....




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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/18/2016 9:35:18 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

There are a number of German generals I admire for their bravery and chivalry in comparison to their contemporaries. Rommel would be near the top of that list.

My big issue is his wife was suspicious about the death camps, and he chose to ignore it. As the British say, God and Country, not the other way around.


Some of the top leaders among the Allies chose to ignore it too. Does that make them war criminals?

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/18/2016 9:42:57 PM   
Rosseau

 

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Status: offline 		I meant to say "For God and Country."

What allied leaders ignored the death camps, and how? Did they put military or diplomatic objectives ahead of stopping the slaughter?

I don't doubt it, just wonder who and why.

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/18/2016 10:00:03 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Max 86

Not sure if I agree with the war criminal part. If that is true then all German officers and NCOs should also be labeled as such for being 'a representative of a criminal regime'. Being on the losing side does not make one a war criminal....


At the end of the Civil War Southern officers could no longer vote, perhaps because commissioned officers could act as representatives for the president of the USA (and even the CSA?). Promotions of all commissioned military officers are commissioned by the President with the consent of Congress.

But I'm not sure how the above worked -- or didn't work -- in the Third Reich.

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/18/2016 10:12:57 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demjansk

Rommel was from the officer caste that followed orders and he followed his star as long as possible....


As Rommel didn't have a von before his surname, he was not strictly of the officer "caste."

After Rommel's funeral, Admiral Friedrich Ruge thought that Hitler had "eliminated the only man who possessed enough respect inside Germany as well as outside to end the war."

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 12:18:57 AM   
demyansk


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Status: offline 		You really didn't need the "Von" in your name to be a career officer of which Rommel was. He was in the 100,000 man army after WW1 under Seekt. Rommel was able to secure a fast promotion due to his introduction to Hitler during a visit in the 1930's and thereafter, Rommel was with Hitler during the Polish invasion as part of his Fuhrer guard detachment. Given the Ghost division in 1940 and he reached the Channel coast quite quickly. Guderian, Keitel, Jodl, Warlimont, Galland, etc etc, weren't vons and some of the big name Generals did have the von name, Kluge, Manstein, Stulpnagel, Seiydlitz, Arnim, Choltiz, Brauchitsch, Blomberg, Runstedt.

The allies knew some details about the death camps but the distances to bomb them didn't fit into the immediate plans. The resources required and military losses felt at the time didn't warrant an operation. I am not sure how the actual intelligence was analyzed but when you think of the death camps, at the time it was hard to fathom. However now, we believe them and even now have a hard time stopping mass slaughter. In hindsight, we should have bombed the heck out of the rail system in this area but the Russians didn't have the capability along with being hostile to our air crews who most likely needed to land in Soviet territory. Very sad that it wasn't done

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 12:48:07 AM   
AbwehrX


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quote:

However, in 2000 Ralph Giordano's "The Falsehood of Tradition" argued that Field Marshall Rommel was a representative of a criminal regime and therefore a war criminal regardless of what he did or didn't know about the plot against Hitler.

In that vein then Giordano was also a war criminal since he supported the Allies who defended the mass murderering Communist Party & Joseph Stalin. Its a very dangerous slippery slope to stereotype an entire demographic as war ciriminals or terrorists.
quote:


But after the war, the Allies needed to rehabilitate the (West) German Army to join NATO and "there was no better figurehead for 'the Good German,' Field Marshall Rommel...."

Good. They did the right thing.

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 1:30:16 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

I meant to say "For God and Country."

What allied leaders ignored the death camps, and how? Did they put military or diplomatic objectives ahead of stopping the slaughter?

I don't doubt it, just wonder who and why.


There were escapees from the camps that informed the Allies what was going on. They wanted air strikes to enable escapes, but the Allies wouldn't redirect the air armadas. They had a war to fight and the camps would have to wait.

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 3:52:38 AM   
Jagdtiger14


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quote:

As Rommel didn't have a von before his surname, he was not strictly of the officer "caste."


That might be true for the Prussian officers, but many German royalty in the far west of Germany dropped their (von)...especially 1795-1814...or never had it to begin with.

About Rommel, I would say let it be. Let something good come out of that dark era. Besides, if Rommel had been alive at the end of the war, Patton would have gladly hired him, and would have loved to spend time with him.

While Hitler was a freak, many Germans were upset at how WWI ended. Rommel I'm sure was probably one of them. If you look at what Hitler did domestically and foreign policy-wise without firing a shot, you can understand why someone in Rommel's position would do what he did early on.



< Message edited by Jagdtiger14 -- 11/19/2016 4:12:21 AM >

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 9:22:07 AM   
Hexagon


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Status: offline 		True is that in 30s Hitler earn a lot of "prestige" with his direction of the country is not like in 30s a german can know more than what the official channels said... i can understand in the moment and Germany situation why Hitler attract so many soldiers to his side, at least the side of rearm country and search recover what Versalles "stole" them.

Very few oposite to Hitler and do it before 1941-42 is something close to career suicide... see Blaskowitz example and well, in the case of Rommel he allways fight in west-africa, areas where the dirty part was a lot less present.

I think that german military were very pragmatic in the start supporting Hitler because offer what they want, return to old great times of german empire but when they enter in Hitler´s game was for them to late to change, part for how they understand loyalty... even in 1944 try kill Hitler was see like something terrible, and part because many of them specially who fought in east was at least permisive with the war crimes.

Rommel was a great general to command a division or a corps of armored troops, was bad in strategic area and in political area i think he see what he wanted see until was not possible see it more, until the Rusia invasion Hitler had military certain respect from profesionals, after the disasters in 1943 no more and here is were born Rommel change about Hitler.

I think we never are going to know what know and what not Rommel about the non military dark side, could know nothing or simple could decide dont want know nothing.

Is something like Trump, people see what want see could center in "clear areas" or in "dark areas" but unlike Hitler we only know what we can see today, not in 12 years or with the perspective of 80 years of investigation and revisions.

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 9:25:12 AM   
demyansk


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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 11:37:29 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demjansk

You really didn't need the "Von" in your name to be a career officer of which Rommel was....


As I posted, Rommel was not strictly of the officer "caste," that is "the vons," who made up many of the senior career officers of the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht. Otherwise, even a "Mischlinge" could be a career officer in the Wehrmacht, but not in the SS where officer candidates had to prove their pure Aryan German ancestry back to 1750.


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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 11:44:32 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

I meant to say "For God and Country."

What allied leaders ignored the death camps, and how? Did they put military or diplomatic objectives ahead of stopping the slaughter?

I don't doubt it, just wonder who and why.


There were escapees from the camps that informed the Allies what was going on. They wanted air strikes to enable escapes, but the Allies wouldn't redirect the air armadas. They had a war to fight and the camps would have to wait.



Yes, but by bombing ball bearing manufacturing, the Allies thought that Germany's wartime transportation operations -- to include the camps -- would be hindered.

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 12:41:51 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		It's easy to put down Germans who went along with the NAZI party. I do believe many who do these days if they live din Germany back then would also follow them..the countries fortune turned around so just like now this obviously will win support.

We take the high moral ground as we have hindsight and know much more than many Germans did. What gets me more and I can't understand is things like Paulus and Manstein not standing their ground and saving most likely 200,000 soldiers lives. I mean how important was their Rank and career? Anyway if Manstein had ordered it as a retrograde defensive action I'm sure it wouldn't be long he wasn't in the good books again or his services were needed. It seemed as if Paulus was desperate for Manstein to give the order...were as if someone like Seydlitz had been commande rof the 6th Stalingrad would have been abandoned..and who knows may have stemmed the Russain tide..or at least dragged the War on longer..either way a lot of lives would have been saved. it's things like that confound me more than a German supporting the NAZI party back then.

Even today when a country experiences severe recession people turn to more a extreme polotics to fix things, since 2008 when things went t#ts up many countries have turned to more Nationalistic politics esp the right wing..just like then...so for all our hindsight and moral standing on this issue we will it seems always go the same way..

< Message edited by wodin -- 11/19/2016 12:45:01 PM >

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 1:42:55 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

It's easy to put down Germans who went along with the NAZI party. I do believe many who do these days if they live din Germany back then would also follow them..the countries fortune turned around so just like now this obviously will win support.

We take the high moral ground as we have hindsight and know much more than many Germans did. What gets me more and I can't understand is things like Paulus and Manstein not standing their ground and saving most likely 200,000 soldiers lives....


Like Rommel, they too took a personal fealty oath to Hitler, not the German people. But Rommel tried to save his beloved Africa Corps in Tunisia despite his Führer's standing orders to fight to the death and not retreat an inch ground.

8 Things You May Not Know About Erwin Rommel

http://www.history.com/news/8-things-you-may-not-know-about-erwin-rommel


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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 3:29:20 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		True Joe but other Generals pulled back during other crisis the Germans faced when Hitler told them to stay put...so it was done...

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RE: Rommel, the "Good German"? - 11/19/2016 4:51:41 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

True Joe but other Generals pulled back during other crisis the Germans faced when Hitler told them to stay put...so it was done...


And it was also eventually done by Rommel.

"... in October 1942, the numerically superior British halted his advance near El Alamein, Egypt. Running low on tanks, ammunition and fuel, Rommel prepared to retreat. But Hitler sent a letter telling him not to yield 'even a yard of ground.' 'As to your troops,' the führer added, 'you can show them no other road than that to victory or death.' Despite his reverence for Hitler, Rommel disobeyed for fear his force would be completely annihilated. He also disregarded an order directing German generals to execute Allied commandos caught behind enemy lines."


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