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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points?

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Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 4:51:05 PM

glyphoglossus

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First of all, apologies if this has been discussed in the forums before. The search function seems completely broken for me right now: no matter what I search for, even terms I know exist in the forums and for which I have lots of results previously now gives me the "www.matrixgames.com says 'the system could not find any record' etc.". [Is this just for me? Is the search working for everyone else?]

I have assembled an amphibious TF in port, undocked, and is full of fuel. I've set a destination. But the TF does not leave port over multiple turns.

http://imgur.com/a/xZi78
[image]http://imgur.com/a/xZi78[/image]

I note all the ships in the TF have 0 ops points, as do all the TF's in this port.

The port itself (as opposed to the TF) has 0 fuel and very little supply. I took this port from the other side several (as in over 4 months) ago. I have not moved in any support unit there (HQ, naval or otherwise).

http://imgur.com/a/JENrJ
[image]http://imgur.com/a/JENrJ[/image]

Why is the TF not leaving port? I suspect that it is due to the 0 ops points? And this in turn, I suspect is either due to the port's lack of fuel or lack of HQ support?

I am (very belatedly) organizing fixing both the latter, but unfortunately, the game (Guadalcanal campaign, as Allied against IJN AI) ends before I can see if these will remedy the situation, so I cannot experiment.

Any suggestions/advice or pointers to previous threads that may be useful?

< Message edited by glyphoglossus -- 11/20/2016 6:38:50 PM >

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 5:05:23 PM

Yaab

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"Followed by TF 37". Where is your TF 37 then?

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 5:07:49 PM

glyphoglossus

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In the same port, waiting for the main TF 7 to move:

http://imgur.com/a/e4j0O
[image]http://imgur.com/a/e4j0O[/image]

< Message edited by glyphoglossus -- 11/20/2016 5:10:08 PM >

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 5:11:03 PM

Yaab

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Has TF 37 finished loading supplies in your game?

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 5:14:31 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
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quote:

ORIGINAL: glyphoglossus

In the same port, waiting for the main TF 7 to move:

http://imgur.com/a/e4j0O
[image]http://imgur.com/a/e4j0O[/image]

TF 37 is loading supplies. The other one will not leave until TF 37 is ready.
BTW, TF 37 should NOT be using "full speed" setting - that is for emergencies. The fuel usage and wear & tear on your ships will be huge if you leave it set.

For search, use Google. The forum's search software is really difficult to use and not very thorough.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 5:14:43 PM

glyphoglossus

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Ah, OK. Looks like the following TF (37) is set to load supplies, and the followed TF (7) is waiting for this to complete!

Did not realize that followed TF's wait for following TF's.

Thanks for drawing attention to the problem, Yaab!

Once I canceled the load supplies for TF 37, the whole kit-and-caboodle immediately set of on its merry way.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 5:16:00 PM

glyphoglossus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: glyphoglossus

In the same port, waiting for the main TF 7 to move:

http://imgur.com/a/e4j0O
[image]http://imgur.com/a/e4j0O[/image]

TF 37 is loading supplies. The other one will not leave until TF 37 is ready.
BTW, TF 37 should NOT be using "full speed" setting - that is for emergencies. The fuel usage and wear & tear on your ships will be huge if you leave it set.

For search, use Google. The forum's search software is really difficult to use and not very thorough.

Looks, like our messages cross-posted.

Yep, you nailed it in one! TF 37 was the hold-up.

Thanks for the note for the full-speed setting.

And I will turn to Google for search, as you suggest.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 5:35:49 PM

m10bob

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Once your ships get to the destination, you have them marked to remain there.
Will you be changing their home port?

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 5:57:49 PM

glyphoglossus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Once your ships get to the destination, you have them marked to remain there.
Will you be changing their home port?

No. This is an artifact of the setting of the previous invasion. I wanted this particular TF to stay and unload their troops even though there was a small enemy TF in the same hex (I had two large BB, a cruiser and a very large destroyer surface combat TF at hand to deal with them). Without the "remain on station", the invasion TF would keep retreating without unloading. I guess it was risky, but I though the risk was acceptable for the benefit of taking the objective rapidly. Maybe in line with Nimitz's principle of calculate risk ;) ? ("You will be governed by the principle of calculated risk, which you shall interpret to mean the avoidance of exposure of your force to attack by superior enemy forces without good prospect of inflicting ... greater damage on the enemy.")

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 9:53:25 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glyphoglossus

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Once your ships get to the destination, you have them marked to remain there.
Will you be changing their home port?

No. This is an artifact of the setting of the previous invasion. I wanted this particular TF to stay and unload their troops even though there was a small enemy TF in the same hex (I had two large BB, a cruiser and a very large destroyer surface combat TF at hand to deal with them). Without the "remain on station", the invasion TF would keep retreating without unloading. I guess it was risky, but I though the risk was acceptable for the benefit of taking the objective rapidly. Maybe in line with Nimitz's principle of calculate risk ;) ? ("You will be governed by the principle of calculated risk, which you shall interpret to mean the avoidance of exposure of your force to attack by superior enemy forces without good prospect of inflicting ... greater damage on the enemy.")

If you don't want them to retreat, set the Routing risk tolerance to "Absolute". It is not a 100% guarantee but they will usually do the mission unless directly attacked.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 10:28:17 PM

rustysi

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One other point I'd like to mention here is I don't think its a good practice to have a TF follow a follower. Not 100% sure, but it kinda looks like you are doing that in this case. Pick one and have the rest follow it. Not exactly sure why, but I do recall reading that somewhere.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 10:35:57 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

One other point I'd like to mention here is I don't think its a good practice to have a TF follow a follower. Not 100% sure, but it kinda looks like you are doing that in this case. Pick one and have the rest follow it. Not exactly sure why, but I do recall reading that somewhere.

Absolutely true- do NOT daisy-chain your followers - the AI has trouble sorting out who is doing what.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 11:23:10 PM

glyphoglossus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
One other point I'd like to mention here is I don't think its a good practice to have a TF follow a follower. Not 100% sure, but it kinda looks like you are doing that in this case. Pick one and have the rest follow it. Not exactly sure why, but I do recall reading that somewhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Absolutely true- do NOT daisy-chain your followers - the AI has trouble sorting out who is doing what.

Thanks, all! No, I was not daisy-chaining but rather had everyone following the primary landing/invasion force. But this was more just the way I happened to do it rather than a deliberate planning to avoid daisy-chaining, so it is good to know that this is something to explicitly avoid.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 11:28:42 PM

Alfred

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There is nothing wrong with using the follow command, provided you know what you are doing.

Read my post in this thread

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3682808&mpage=1&key=&#3683266

which details the relevant factors when multiple TFs are present in the same hex. The hyper links provided are also very important.

Alfred

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/20/2016 11:48:06 PM

rustysi

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OK, I stand corrected. Will try using the way suggested in the links.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/21/2016 12:01:33 AM

geofflambert

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Supply, fuel and ammo. Your ships will wait until every last other ship is full on those three, unless you order them not to load. They can easily take several days to load depending on port size, tenders present and Naval Support. Plus if an amphib force is part of this clusterfrak, you may be waiting a long time for it to load. My advice would be, if Allied, if you have a fast BB force available to lead, PoW and Repulse for example, you may make that the leader of your TF conglomeration, even if one or more of them is a CV TF. CL TFs should follow your favorite CV TF. Keep in mind that the more complicated you make it the more things can and probably will go wrong. All except the Cl TFs should follow the fast BB TF. You could additionally have one or more ASW DD TFs attached to your lead CV TF. Just keep in mind that further complication is not usually a good thing.

Best advice (as Allied) is have a CV TF lead with screening TFs including BB TFs following her by zero hexes. If you can have multiple trains each led by a CV TF I would say that's best. BB TFs leading could perhaps give you early warning of enemy approach if the seas allow her floatplanes to take off. In the end I don't think that works well most of the time and prefer to have BB TFs screening my CV TFs against enemy surface TFs.

Now, when it comes to amphib TFs do not have them follow CV or CVE TFs. The CVE TFs job is to get there first. If you have the amphib TF follow the CVE TF it will slow her down and disastrous complications may follow. The amphib TF will get there when it gets there. Take the "deceive" part out of "Oh, what a tangled web we weave,". Just don't weave tangled webs.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/21/2016 12:09:01 AM

geofflambert

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If you think the advance recon provided by a BB/CA/CL TF is essential, send them as independent, not as a followed TF. The things that can go wrong in one day can go wrong on any day. There is no purpose or porpoise to be served by the lead - follow arrangement.

That was pretty muddy thinking expressed in a brilliant way, if I do say so myself. Minimize all lead - follow arrangements to a lead CV TF followed by zero hexes by the escort/screen TFs of your choice. If you have multiple CV TFs headed for the same battle, give them the best commanders you can and the same orders (more or less) as the others and things are likely to work out better than otherwise.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 11/21/2016 12:16:28 AM >

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/21/2016 1:31:46 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Best advice (as Allied) is have a CV TF lead with screening TFs including BB TFs following her by zero hexes. If you can have multiple trains each led by a CV TF I would say that's best.

I would never do this. Like, never, ever.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/21/2016 3:19:27 AM

glyphoglossus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There is nothing wrong with using the follow command, provided you know what you are doing.

Read my post in this thread

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3682808&mpage=1&key=�

which details the relevant factors when multiple TFs are present in the same hex.� The hyper links provided are also very important.

Alfred

quote:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3682808&mpage=1&key=�

Thank you for this, Alfred.

Gold, as usual.

With respect to the discussion of follow commands in this thread, it shows that "follow" commands are an essential tool for intelligently and deliberately organizing how (and which) multiple different TF's engage and interact within hexes. The canonical order for should be for Surface TF to be followed by Bombardment TF to be followed by Amphibious TF. Adjust to taste and circumstance (e.g., mine-sweepers first if mine threat is higher than surface). Always keeping in mind that there is really nice built-in "best laid plans of mice and admirals go awry" logic built-in.

As far as CV TF's goes, it makes most sense for me to have CV's FOLLOW rather than LEAD the Surface Combat groups. And from what I understand, full fleet CV's only operate half their planes at a base hex, so my thinking is to, just before the invasion itself, set the CV TF's to follow the invasion ships 1 hex behind to stay in open water and provide LRCAP to the ships operating close inshore from there.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/21/2016 12:54:09 PM

m10bob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Best advice (as Allied) is have a CV TF lead with screening TFs including BB TFs following her by zero hexes. If you can have multiple trains each led by a CV TF I would say that's best.

I would never do this. Like, never, ever.

I would not "lead" with thin skinned flat-tops either.
Strongsurface force perhaps with a 50% chance for bombardment mission if their RADAR is efficient for sure.
When possible I will put CVE's in with the amphib force to provide air cover.
As for the TB and DB's on those CVE's, be careful using them for anti ground missions because (IMHO) the game makes AAA much too strong.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/22/2016 12:48:17 PM

HansBolter

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Another thing to be aware of in setting following orders is that the leader will run at the speed of the slowest follower.

Can make a difference.

Think twice about adding that 12 knot freighter TF that moves 3/2 to a group of TFs moving 4/3.

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RE: Undocked TF not leaving port: 0 Ops points? - 11/23/2016 5:22:46 PM

Shark7

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OK, I have had this problem before and this is how I finally got all the task forces moving again.

Basically, I've had this happen when I send a group of TF to a forward base to make a refueling stop without unloading on its way to an assault target. The ships will arrive and refuel, then refuse to budge again. Ops status, nor docking status, nor follow status matter.

The Fix: Go into each each of the offending TFs individually and reset their home port to anywhere that will take more than a turn to arrive and send them there. I generally try to pick somewhere closer to my objective. The the next turn, you can go back into the TFs and reset everything like you want it (IE the target base and proper home port), and they will then proceed to target and unload.

It's a really weird glitch that seems to only happen under certain circumstances.

< Message edited by Shark7 -- 11/23/2016 5:24:09 PM >

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