List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?

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List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/19/2016 3:38:10 PM

Yaab

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Other than the attacks on Repulse and PoW, what did Jap level bombers accomplish against the Allied navies? I am asking about attacks carried out with bombs, not torpedoes.

Seems to me if you want to attack shipping with level bombers and go for a higher altitude, you should be aiming to carpet an area with smaller bombs. So instead of 3 x 250kg GP bombs, you should go for something like this 1 x 250kg, 10 x 50 kg, especially against "soft-skinned" ships (anything other than CA/CL, BB and CV).

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/19/2016 5:04:57 PM

geofflambert

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Here's a list of warring parties that didn't keep very useful records: the CSA, the Trojans, the Carthaginians and the Japanese. Did I leave anyone out?
Here's a list of those that kept meticulous records, beginning with the most anal retentive: The Germans, the British and the good ol' USA.

Not to say the info you want could not be found in Allied records.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/19/2016 5:09:21 PM

Buckrock

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Anti-shipping strikes were actually uncommon, most Japanese level bomber missions being against land targets. When naval and
merchant vessels were to be the targets, the torpedo was the preferred weapon when available for G3M/G4Ms.

The sinkings via level bombing I know of are the USS Langley and the USS Calhoun. Both reportedly involved the use of mixed
bombloads of 250kg and 60kg bombs. There was also an Allied transport sunk off Port Moresby by an attack from high altitude.

These attacks all occurred in 1942.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/19/2016 7:59:00 PM

BBfanboy

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During the initial landings at Guadalcanal, a transport (George F. Elliot IIRC) was hit by bombs and set on fire. During the night, light from these fires silhouetted the Allied Cruiser force for the Japanese during the Battle of Savo Sound. The transport eventually sank.
I think Betties were using bombs because they could not carry a torpedo that far.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/19/2016 9:07:08 PM

warspite1

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I think giving credit to the level bombers for Force Z seems wrong in any case. It was the torpedoes that did the critical damage not the bombs.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/19/2016 9:48:43 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Look no further than the 9 april 1942:

CVL Hermes hit by 40 250 kg bombs!

And the Cornwall and Dorsetshire sinkings too. Almost all the bombs of Egusa's men hit the two cruisers.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/19/2016 10:29:03 PM

MuguNiner

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USS Arizona, 12/7/41

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/19/2016 11:01:06 PM

spence

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The sinkngs of the HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire were carried out by D3A carrier dive bombers. Not sure about HMS Hermes but the bombing was certainly carried out by carrier aircraft (combo of dive bombers and level bombers?).

USS Arizona was hit in the magazine by an 800 kg converted AP shell which resulted in the famous explosion and destruction of the ship. That one spectacular success was one out of 50 such bombs dropped and has since concealed the fact that the majority of the 800 kg AP shell/bombs that actually hit (6/10) were the functional equivalent of duds.

High altitude precision bombing by anyone in WW2 was pretty much a joke.

< Message edited by spence -- 11/19/2016 11:03:04 PM >

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 4:55:56 AM

Yaab

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Thanks. So it seems, in the game, the availability of torpedoes, turns the Jap level bombers into moderately successful attack platform compared to the real life. Without their torpedoes, the level bombers were a non-factor in the naval war.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 10:59:46 AM

spence

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The 3 squadrons of Nells/Bettys that sank the PoW/Repulse spent at least the month prior to that action undergoing specific and intense training for that very mission.

The attached website includes a post-war interview with IJN staff that includes a description of that training and some interesting info about subsequent operations by the units participating.

http://www.forcez-survivors.org.uk/

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 11:21:11 AM

wdolson

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On Feb 4, 1942 the USS Houston was attacked by a large force of bomb carrying Bettys and Nells. They put the #3 turret out of action, but that's about all they managed to do.

A number of ships were damaged by torpedoes from land based air including the second Houston off Formosa and the Intrepid.

If you want to geek out on damage reports, the USN reports on just about every warship damaged or sunk is online. A couple of sources:
https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/w/war-damage-reports.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/WDR/

I also have a book which chronicles the sinking of every Allied warship during the war. Most of the entries are fairly short, but they all list the cause (if known).

Bill

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 2:47:02 PM

Buckrock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

On Feb 4, 1942 the USS Houston was attacked by a large force of bomb carrying Bettys and Nells. They put the #3 turret out of action, but that's about all they managed to do.

According to Hornfischer's "Ship of Ghosts", only desperate DC efforts and a measure of luck stopped that hit taking out the whole ship
with a catastrophic aft magazine explosion. All 8" turrets (including No 3) had been loaded in preparation for repelling any low level torpedo
attacks and the hoists were packed with powder bags. Bomb fragments ignited a fire that wiped out the turret crew and threatened
the magazine.

During the same action, USS Marblehead suffered 2 bomb hits and a very near miss that partially lifted her out of the water, the resulting
damage leaving her with only limited steering and a lengthy battle to keep her flooding under control.

To achieve these hits, the Japanese committed 60 IJNAF level bombers against the 2 USN and 2 HNLMS cruisers, most aircraft carrying a pair
of 250kg bombs which were dropped over two passes (or more if "dummy runs" are included).

Though no Allied ships were sunk, several authors have claimed the results of this action had a considerable influence on the rest of the Java
Sea Campaign.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 2:52:53 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Thanks. So it seems, in the game, the availability of torpedoes, turns the Jap level bombers into moderately successful attack platform compared to the real life. Without their torpedoes, the level bombers were a non-factor in the naval war.

As the Allies discovered medium bombers needed a high level of coordination to successfully pull of low level shipping attacks. By mid war, this involved both heavily armed attack bombers and fighters suppressing flak combined with low level glide bombing and skip bombing attacks. It was very dangerous work and required durable aircraft.

The Japanese were deficient in almost all of these categories. They really had no suppression platforms such as Allied attack bombers or durable fighter bombers like the Beaufighter. In addition their medium bombers proved to be woefully vulnerable to Allied flak. I don't think they really perfected any sort of skip bombing tactics-probably for the reasons above.

Torpedoes could at least be dropped from a range that gave a "chance" for escape. But then, again after 1943 not too many Japanese planes of any type were getting home. Even as early as the Guadalcanal campaign Japanese bombers attacking land targets were being forced to bomb from very high altitude due to their vulnerability to flak. If you exclude those ships sitting at anchor or a dock, I suspect that Japanese level bombers did not sink too many.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 11/20/2016 2:53:36 PM >

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 2:58:05 PM

Yaab

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Makassar_Strait

So that would be the yardstick of the effectiveness of Jap's level bomber anti-shipping action? 60 bombers, 120 bombs, 3 hits and 1 damaging near miss, which is roughly 3% hit accuracy.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 4:16:38 PM

m10bob

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While she did not sink, my dad in law was aboard the USS Wakefield at Singapore when a bomb hit the deck from a Betty.

http://ww2troopships.com/ships/w/wakefield/default.htm

< Message edited by m10bob -- 11/20/2016 4:19:41 PM >

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 4:18:26 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Makassar_Strait

So that would be the yardstick of the effectiveness of Jap's level bomber anti-shipping action? 60 bombers, 120 bombs, 3 hits and 1 damaging near miss, which is roughly 3% hit accuracy.

Hey, they had maneuvering targets to try and hit. At one point in the ETO a review of HB effectiveness concluded that few bombs got within five miles of the target - and their target was not moving. Something about flak and fighters causing premature completion ...

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 4:29:18 PM

Buckrock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
So that would be the yardstick of the effectiveness of Jap's level bomber anti-shipping action? 60 bombers, 120 bombs, 3 hits and 1 damaging near miss, which is roughly 3% hit accuracy.

I doubt an accurate baseline for horizontal bombing accuracy vs an underway TF could be determined from just one action, even if it was (IIRC) the
largest of that type made by the Japanese during the Pacific War.

Shift the action to Aug 7th, 1942 and a horizontal bombing attack by 26 G4Ms at a similar altitude but against a much more numerous Allied TF missed
everything with their 156 bombs (250kg and 60kg).

Obviously your baseline would have given you at least one hit under those circumstances, so you need to work out what determined the different results.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 5:08:51 PM

Yaab

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Thanks. Are you aware of a complete list of Jap level bomber attacks against ships?

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 5:43:31 PM

Buckrock

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No but that's not to say someone hasn't compiled one somewhere.

My knowledge of this type of Japanese attack only comes from reading of them while studying various Pacific campaigns. They were rare enough to get my attention during a study.

Those campaigns that mention them were the Philippines campaign (primarily the Dec '41 attacks on shipping in Manila Bay), the Java Sea Campaign, the separate attacks on Lexington and Enterprise during the USN Raids of Feb '42, the Battle of Coral Sea (attack on TF 44), a few 1942 Japanese raids on shipping off Port Moresby (and also some in 1943 during the Allied New Guinea amphibious offensive) and finally, the attacks on TFs and shipping off Guadalcanal Aug-Nov '42 (IIRC, there were only 3 such horizontal attacks including the one I mentioned earlier).

And of course the horizontal bombing component of the attack on Repulse and Prince of Wales.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 6:07:25 PM

pelthunter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's a list of those that kept meticulous records, beginning with the most anal retentive: The Germans, the British and the good ol' USA.

Hm. Apparently US record keeping depends in the issue.

For example, the Bari debacle was notoriously censored.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 10:00:41 PM

BBfanboy

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I found an example of a sinking written up in Wikipedia - USS Aaron Ward DD 483 (the Gleaves class one - not the later Sumner class.) The write up does not mention the type of bombers but in April 1943 it was probably Sally, Betty or Nell bombers from Rabaul - the central Solomons being under assault by the US.
EDIT: just noticed the article mentions dive bombers - I was looking for names of the bomber type.

Sinking

Aaron Ward is off the south coast of Florida Island.
As the ships neared their destination, Aaron Ward received orders at about 1330 to leave her convoy to cover LST-449 off Togoma Point, Guadalcanal. (One of the passengers on LST-449 was then Lieutenant (junior grade) John F. Kennedy, later to become President of the United States, on his way to take command of PT-109.) Joining the tank landing ship at 1419, the destroyer directed her to follow her movements and zigzag at the approach of enemy aircraft. While the LST maneuvered to conform to Aaron Ward's movements, Lieutenant Commander Frederick J. Becton, commanding officer of Aaron Ward, planned to retire to the eastward through Lengo Channel, as other cargo ships and escorting ships were doing upon receipt of the air raid warning from Guadalcanal.

Sighting a dogfight over Savo Island, Aaron Ward tracked a closer group of Japanese planes heading south over Tulagi; while swinging to starboard, the ship suddenly sighted three enemy planes coming out of the sun. Surging ahead to flank speed and putting her rudder over hard to port, Aaron Ward opened fire with her 20 mm and 40 mm guns, followed shortly afterwards by her 5-inch battery. Bombs from the first three planes struck on or near the ship, and the mining effect of the near-misses proved devastating; the first bomb was a near miss, which tore holes in the side of the ship, allowing the forward fire room to ship water rapidly; the second struck home in the engine room, causing a loss of all electrical power on the 5 inch and 40 mm mounts. Shifting to local control, however, the gunners kept up the fire. A third bomb splashed close aboard, holing her port side, near the after engine room. Having lost power to her rudder, the ship continued to swing to port as another trio of dive bombers loosed their loads on the now-helpless destroyer. While none of these bombs hit the ship, two landed very near her port side. Twenty men died, 59 were wounded, and seven went missing.

Despite the best efforts of her determined crew, and the assistance of Ortolan and Vireo, the destroyer settled lower in the water. When it became evident that the battle to save Aaron Ward was being lost, Ortolan and Vireo attempted to beach her on a shoal near Tinete Point of Nggela Sule. At 21:35, however, Aaron Ward sank, stern-first, in 40 fathoms (70 m) of water, only 600 yards (550 m) from shoal water.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 11/20/2016 10:03:33 PM >

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/20/2016 11:18:58 PM

spence

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quote:

For example, the Bari debacle was notoriously censored.

So of course we are supposed to believe the non-existent Japanese records.

Could it be that the Bari records involved a poison gas which was never used (except maybe by the Japanese against the Chinese)?

Virtually every record kept by anybody indicates that unopposed Japanese level bombers risked "their all" by dropping their bombs on Chinese civilians prior to WW2. Obviously we should accord them a 99 experience cause they were better than anybody else.

< Message edited by spence -- 11/20/2016 11:22:28 PM >

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/21/2016 12:28:04 AM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pelthunter

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's a list of those that kept meticulous records, beginning with the most anal retentive: The Germans, the British and the good ol' USA.

Hm. Apparently US record keeping depends in the issue.

For example, the Bari debacle was notoriously censored.

You can only censor something that has been written.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/21/2016 1:56:21 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

For example, the Bari debacle was notoriously censored.

So of course we are supposed to believe the non-existent Japanese records.

Could it be that the Bari records involved a poison gas which was never used (except maybe by the Japanese against the Chinese)?

Virtually every record kept by anybody indicates that unopposed Japanese level bombers risked "their all" by dropping their bombs on Chinese civilians prior to WW2. Obviously we should accord them a 99 experience cause they were better than anybody else.

Yes, Bari was hush-hush for several reasons:

1. The army did not want the Germans to know that they had poison gas ready to use if the Germans did first. Such knowledge just might make Hitler order use of poison gas!

2. They were very embarrassed that the Germans could pull off such an attack at night with so little opposition. Quite a few ships were sunk or damaged.

3. They were probably very embarrassed at their own stupidity - parking a freighter full of poison gas next to a civilian populace and in a busy logistics port. It should have been parked in a remote area out at sea.

IMO hiding this disaster was a CYA moment more than legit security concerns.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/21/2016 4:37:23 AM

Buckrock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I found an example of a sinking written up in Wikipedia - USS Aaron Ward DD 483 (the Gleaves class one - not the later Sumner class.) The write up does not mention the type of bombers but in April 1943 it was probably Sally, Betty or Nell bombers from Rabaul - the central Solomons being under assault by the US.
EDIT: just noticed the article mentions dive bombers - I was looking for names of the bomber type.

It's still an interesting incident by the fact that none of the 50+ G3M/G4Ms available at Rabaul were used. The Japanese shipping strike
that day against the waters off Guadalcanal was huge, 67 Vals escorted by 110 Zeros with another 47 Zeros performing a separate fighter
sweep to clear the way. It was the major Solomons strike of Operation I-Go but the Betties stayed home.

The Rabaul based level bombers were not used until almost week later during the second part of Operation I-Go which was directed against
targets in New Guinea. IIRC, these level bomber missions were all against Allied airfields while the Vals again were the aircraft used
against any shipping.

It wasn't the end of the Japanese using their level bombers against ships in daylight but it may have been something the Japanese now at
least hesitated to do unless no other options were available.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/22/2016 6:48:17 AM

Reg

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I read somewhere that high level bombing a moving ship was akin to standing on a chair and attempting to drop a billiard ball onto a mouse running around on the floor....

(citation uncertain...)

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/22/2016 12:58:07 PM

Buckrock

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The Japanese early war tactic was to fly in a shallow Vee and perform a chutai formation drop, preferably from around 10000ft which would give the
target vessel less than 30 sec to evade. So translating to your example, it would be the equivalent of dropping one of your boomerangs from a chair
and hoping to hit a mouse running past. Much easier.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/22/2016 1:44:10 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

Here's a list of warring parties that didn't keep very useful records: the CSA, the Trojans, the Carthaginians and the Japanese. Did I leave anyone out?
Here's a list of those that kept meticulous records, beginning with the most anal retentive: The Germans, the British and the good ol' USA.

Oh, the Japanese kept plenty of records. I understand that you could not see your hand in front of your face for all the documents that were burned between the surrender and the occupation. In an effort, mostly successful, to cover up war crimes massive amounts of documents were burned including lots of IJN and IJA operational records

" The director of Japan�s Military History
Archives of the National Institute for Defense Studies estimated in 2003 that as much as
70 percent of the army�s wartime records were burned or otherwise destroyed".
https://www.archives.gov/files/iwg/japanese-war-crimes/introductory-essays.pdf

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 11/22/2016 1:54:00 PM >

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/22/2016 1:51:10 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

The Japanese early war tactic was to fly in a shallow Vee and perform a chutai formation drop, preferably from around 10000ft which would give the
target vessel less than 30 sec to evade. So translating to your example, it would be the equivalent of dropping one of your boomerangs from a chair
and hoping to hit a mouse running past. Much easier.

The British suffered heavy bombing by Italian level bombers in the Mediterranean but were usually able to avoid by skillful maneuvering. I am not sure the Italian bomber pilots were as skillful or committed as the Japanese ones though. I think the game models bomb dodging in the Naval Skill of ship captains.

Attachment (1)

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/22/2016 2:35:43 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Makassar_Strait

So that would be the yardstick of the effectiveness of Jap's level bomber anti-shipping action? 60 bombers, 120 bombs, 3 hits and 1 damaging near miss, which is roughly 3% hit accuracy.

Although the Japanese didn't have a high level of hit rate here, they actually achieved a lot with their strike.

In game no one would level bomb from 16k against naval targets. Players would rather lose more planes for the hope of more hits. In fact none of these results or real world situations really matter in game because no one would use settings the Japanese used, preferring to increase accuracy with low level attacks or using torpedoes.

WITP:AE players have access to hindsight, which means we choose the tactics proven most likely to sink ships; dive bombing, skip bombing or torpedo bombing. At the time of course it was still believed high level bombing could hit moving ships.

The argument about number of torpedoes available to the Japanese player is a better one to engage in, because we have an abstraction that isn't an accurate portrayal of real world capability. Could every base with an air HQ and supply have had limitless torpedoes? Probably not. But I don't have access to those records.

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List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?