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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Mystical abilities of Japanese Surface Forces...

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Mystical abilities of Japanese Surface Forces... - 4/24/2003 10:33:53 AM

JohnK

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Joined: 2/8/2001
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Had some very odd experiences (very different from every game I've played versus the AI) in a PBEM game the last three nights of game time playing as the Americans in Scen 12. (Version 2.30).

I'm landing troops at my base at Irau. The Japanese are also landing troops there. I have three transport TFs unloading with a Surface TF there as well.

The first night, there's a massive battle between American and Japanese cruiser forces, with the Japanese getting the worst of it and withdrawing. However, then my cruiser force gets surprised and long-lanced badly by a separate force of 5 Japanese destroyers, evening out the damage.

The next night, I have a much reduced cruiser force with some destroyers patrolling Irau (plenty of fuel, no ops points used.)

Another Japanese cruiser-destroyer force comes down.

First it kills a lone PT boat.

THEN it shoots up one of my transport forces, killing all the escorts and several transports.

THEN it shoots up ANOTHER transport force killing and damaging several more transports.

THEN on the same night it heavily bombards Irau.

My surface TF in the same hex never lifts a finger.

I've never seen anything like it.

The NEXT night, I have a surface TF of Cruisers and DDs that I've detached from my covering CVs (at least meanwhile Sara and Wasp had heavily damaged the retreating lone Hiryu) reach Irau.

They fight it out with THAT night's Japanese CA and DD force, in TWO combats. I get slightly the worst of it.

THEN the Japanese force once again shoots up one of my transport forces, killing all the escort and one transport.

THEN the same night they heavily bombard Irau AGAIN.

(And of course, the original surface TF doesn't engage at all for the second night in a row. Also, on all THREE nights, a force of Japanese TFs..not fast transport...have been sitting in Irau unloading troops unmolested.)

So something i'd never seen before happened AGAIN...in a fair amount of previous play, I'd never seen forces heavily engaged on the surface by a surface TF shoot up transports, OR bombard, on the same night.

Post #: 1

Re: Mystical abilities of Japanese Surface Forces... - 4/24/2003 11:05:20 AM

Chiteng

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnK
[B]Had some very odd experiences (very different from every game I've played versus the AI) in a PBEM game the last three nights of game time playing as the Americans in Scen 12. (Version 2.30).

I'm landing troops at my base at Irau. The Japanese are also landing troops there. I have three transport TFs unloading with a Surface TF there as well.

The first night, there's a massive battle between American and Japanese cruiser forces, with the Japanese getting the worst of it and withdrawing. However, then my cruiser force gets surprised and long-lanced badly by a separate force of 5 Japanese destroyers, evening out the damage.

The next night, I have a much reduced cruiser force with some destroyers patrolling Irau (plenty of fuel, no ops points used.)

Another Japanese cruiser-destroyer force comes down.

First it kills a lone PT boat.

THEN it shoots up one of my transport forces, killing all the escorts and several transports.

THEN it shoots up ANOTHER transport force killing and damaging several more transports.

THEN on the same night it heavily bombards Irau.

My surface TF in the same hex never lifts a finger.

I've never seen anything like it.

The NEXT night, I have a surface TF of Cruisers and DDs that I've detached from my covering CVs (at least meanwhile Sara and Wasp had heavily damaged the retreating lone Hiryu) reach Irau.

They fight it out with THAT night's Japanese CA and DD force, in TWO combats. I get slightly the worst of it.

THEN the Japanese force once again shoots up one of my transport forces, killing all the escort and one transport.

THEN the same night they heavily bombard Irau AGAIN.

(And of course, the original surface TF doesn't engage at all for the second night in a row. Also, on all THREE nights, a force of Japanese TFs..not fast transport...have been sitting in Irau unloading troops unmolested.)

So something i'd never seen before happened AGAIN...in a fair amount of previous play, I'd never seen forces heavily engaged on the surface by a surface TF shoot up transports, OR bombard, on the same night. [/B][/QUOTE]

Its because you had alraedy fought an engagement.
You have to go re-fuel
I dont know why..Even if you have plenty of ammo left.
You gotta go refuel

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Post #: 2

- 4/24/2003 1:49:27 PM

Mr.Frag

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I have had the exact same thing happen as the other side, where a large Surface TF sits in a hex and completely ignores the enemy TF that comes into the hex and wipes out other TFs while these guys are taking a coffee break.

I would write it off to one of two things:

(a) the TF failed to sight the other TF

or

(b) the TF commander was afraid to engage based on his perception of the odds (stick an aggressive commander in surface TFs!)

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Post #: 3

- 4/24/2003 4:09:59 PM

Subchaser

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I�m also saw this ridiculous behavior of TFs and that�s true about refueling, if you refuel them your ships will act as they should again, looks like they need the certain amount of fuel onboard for successful surface interception and this amount vary from engagement to engagement. From this point it seems logic to always have replenishment TF around.

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Post #: 4

- 4/24/2003 11:03:33 PM

bilbow

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From: Concord NH
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Another possibility is they may be docked at your base, rather than patrolling the hex. Surface groups are a lot more likely to react and engage if they are on patrol, not docked at the base. Set the TF destination as the hex (right click) not the base, and "Patrol/do not retire", and they will stay out there in the hex undocked. This can make a big difference.

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Post #: 5

- 4/25/2003 12:35:08 AM

Full Moon

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From: Texas
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Yeah, bilbow got a good point. You said you own Irau, so your TFs can dock at Irau and IJN can never dock there. Maybe that makes the difference.

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Post #: 6

Re: Re: Mystical abilities of Japanese Surface Forces... - 4/25/2003 12:41:21 AM

JohnK

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chiteng
[B]Its because you had alraedy fought an engagement.
You have to go re-fuel
I dont know why..Even if you have plenty of ammo left.
You gotta go refuel [/B][/QUOTE]

Not certain what you're getting at...

My main complaint are a Japanese force fighting 1-2 battles against a surface TF, and/or then shooting up 1-2 Transport forces, and THEN also the SAME SHIPS massively bombard a base in THE SAME NIGHT.

Here's the report:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/03/42

Weather: Thunderstorms

Night Time Surface Combat, near Irau at 42,43

Japanese Ships
CA Mikuma
CA Kako, Shell hits 3, on fire
CL Natori, Shell hits 3
CL Kinu, Shell hits 1
DD Kuroshio
DD Yamagumo
DD Akatsuki
DD Murakumo, Shell hits 2
DD Uranami
DD Ushio
DD Asanagi
DD Okikaze
DD Hakaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Nokaze

Allied Ships
CA Northampton
CL Honolulu
DD Meredith, Shell hits 20, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Wilkes
DD Grayson, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Irau at 42,43

Japanese Ships
CA Mikuma
CA Kako, on fire
CL Natori
CL Kinu, Shell hits 1
DD Kuroshio
DD Yamagumo
DD Akatsuki
DD Murakumo, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Uranami
DD Ushio
DD Asanagi
DD Okikaze
DD Hakaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Nokaze

Allied Ships
CA Northampton, Torpedo hits 1
CL Honolulu
DD Meredith, on fire, heavy damage
DD Wilkes
DD Grayson, Shell hits 24, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Irau at 42,43

Japanese Ships
CA Mikuma, Shell hits 1
CA Kako, on fire
CL Natori
CL Kinu
DD Kuroshio
DD Yamagumo
DD Akatsuki
DD Murakumo, on fire, heavy damage
DD Uranami
DD Ushio
DD Asanagi
DD Okikaze
DD Hakaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Nokaze

Allied Ships
DD Dale, Shell hits 18, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
MSW Lismore, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
MSW Toowoomba, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AK Bellatrix
AK Betelgeuse
AK Algorab
AK Etamin
AK Adhara, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Alcyone
AK Almaack

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Irau, at 42,43

Allied aircraft

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 3 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 6 damaged
PBY Catalina x 1 destroyed
PBY Catalina x 1 damaged
A-20B Havoc x 1 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
Men lost 90

Airbase hits 13
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 42
Port hits 1

They never had to "go refuel."

I have no problem with a Japanese force winning a surface battle against another surface TF and then shooting up some transports.

It's the bombardment that gets me. I don't believe a SINGLE Japanese bombardment force that was actually intercepted ever went on to actually DO any bombarding.

Bombarding took time, used different ammo, etc.

IMHO any serious surface engagement at all should preclude a force from bombarding that night.

I don't have a problem with a force winning a surface battle and then shooting up transports. The Japanese never really did that in Solomons EITHER, but they COULD have (like after Savo Island, etc.)

My secondary complaint was my one surface TF not engaging two nights in a row but that has since been explained by other posters.

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Post #: 7

That mystery solved... - 4/25/2003 12:47:03 AM

JohnK

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by bilbow
[B]Another possibility is they may be docked at your base, rather than patrolling the hex. Surface groups are a lot more likely to react and engage if they are on patrol, not docked at the base. Set the TF destination as the hex (right click) not the base, and "Patrol/do not retire", and they will stay out there in the hex undocked. This can make a big difference. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yep, that's it. I have the port at Irau built up to 1. Thanks for solving this mystery.

Amazingly I'm embarassed to admit that I had no idea that you could right-click and choose a hex instead of a base in the hex as a destination.

The ORIGINAL surface TF had the really big battle the first night, the night it arrived at Irau (before it was in port.) The next two nights were the nights where it didn't encounter anything. I had it set for base Irau, destination Irau, patrol/do not retire.

The SECOND surface TF (my detached CV screen) again had its encounter the night it arrived at Irau.

For next turn, I've combined the survivors of BOTH forces and set base to Irau, patrol/do not retire, but the destination is the Irau HEX, not Irau. We'll see what happens.

I think in previous UV games I'd played all of the surface combats had been on the turn that forces arrived, or at bases where I hadn't built the port above 0 yet, and that's why I never failed to have surface combat.

However, as I've noted, while I was POed my first surface TF didn't have encounters two nights in a row, what I was REALLY annoyed about was Japanese forces having 3 surface combats and THEN bombarding.

(in reply to JohnK)

Post #: 8

- 4/25/2003 12:54:10 AM

Full Moon

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Joined: 1/25/2003
From: Texas
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Where did the Japanese TF come from? Lunga? If they came from Lunga, they had more time to engage your TFs and bombard Irau than Japnese did at Lunga historically. They came from Shortland. Distance from Shortland to Lunga is much farther than that from Lunga to Irau. Since Japnese had to get away from Allied planes at Lunga during night, they didn't have much time. But if they came from Lunga, they had more time to spend that the Japanese TFs did historically.
Also aggressiveness of TF commnader may make the difference and it's setting. If they were set 'do not retire' they may keep engage without retreating. When it retreats pretty much depends on the aggressiveness of the TF commnader. If he is very aggressive, he'll keep engage even if his ships badly hurt.

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Post #: 9

Re: That mystery solved... - 4/25/2003 3:13:33 AM

bilbow

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From: Concord NH
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnK
[B]Yep, that's it. I have the port at Irau built up to 1. Thanks for solving this mystery.

Amazingly I'm embarassed to admit that I had no idea that you could right-click and choose a hex instead of a base in the hex as a destination.

The ORIGINAL surface TF had the really big battle the first night, the night it arrived at Irau (before it was in port.) The next two nights were the nights where it didn't encounter anything. I had it set for base Irau, destination Irau, patrol/do not retire.

The SECOND surface TF (my detached CV screen) again had its encounter the night it arrived at Irau.

For next turn, I've combined the survivors of BOTH forces and set base to Irau, patrol/do not retire, but the destination is the Irau HEX, not Irau. We'll see what happens.

I think in previous UV games I'd played all of the surface combats had been on the turn that forces arrived, or at bases where I hadn't built the port above 0 yet, and that's why I never failed to have surface combat.

However, as I've noted, while I was POed my first surface TF didn't have encounters two nights in a row, what I was REALLY annoyed about was Japanese forces having 3 surface combats and THEN bombarding. [/B][/QUOTE]

The level of the base shouldn't matter, since the game will automatically dock you even at a dot-base as long as you own it. Mechanically you select the base first, then go back and right-click the hex. For some reason just right-clicking doesn't have an effect.

Another use for this is a patrolling (ie underway) TF is much less vulnerable to air attack. Level bombers won't hit it much at all, but if it's docked it becomes easy meat. You will of coure take sys damage when underway that you don't when docked. So it's a tradeoff.

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Post #: 10

- 4/25/2003 4:37:56 AM

Sonny

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How can you be sure the bombardment TF is the same as the surface group which engaged your surface fleet? :confused:

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Post #: 11

- 4/25/2003 5:04:36 AM

Mr.Frag

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Bombardment and Fast Transport missions operate under different rules then Surface missions.

A lesser TF with the proper commander will actually dance out of the hex that the bombardment TF is arriving at to hit during the night phase. I used to think the game was cheating until I found the obscure rule that states TFs will evacuate 1 hex towards their main base (Noumea/Truk) during the night phase to avoid combat.

A bombardment TF will generally jump everything at the destination hex and attempt to sink them (assuming they are detected!). Once Bombardment uses up a certain amount of ammo, the mission type changes to Surface, and the rules change.

It gets quite tricky to predict exactly what will happen when multiple TF's from both sides are showing up at the same location. Weather plays a part as far as spotting and detection values and commander aggression factors into the path taken coupled with whether a TF is reacting to protect a friendly base. All these things factor together to produce your outcome.

Had your transport TF spotted the Bombardment TF (it entered the hex during the night phase), it should have side stepped the TF and not been creamed, but this is dependant on spotting (good idea to have 1 DD *with* radar in your Transport TFs for this reason).

Ships that do NOT detect each other (ie: your bombardment TF didn't detect the surface TF defending the port and the defending TF did detect the bombardment TF but was manned by a chicken commander) would not engage.

(in reply to JohnK)

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- 4/25/2003 10:06:00 PM

crsutton

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After reading the after action report you posted, I noticed that the first two surface actions were relatively minor engagements with very few shots and torpedoes fired. Makes sense that there was ammo left over for more action.

I have yet to figure out how the varibles effect surface actions but I do know that noting is set. That is the beauty of this game. As mentioned before, there are all kinds of factors in play here; leader quality, crew quality, radar, weather, location. I just had a Tanaka led Japanese TF soundly spanked by a slightly larger American TF in a recent action. My ding blasted Japanese DDs and CLs hardly fired any torpedoes or missed with all of them. You never know.

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Post #: 13

- 4/26/2003 12:26:11 AM

panda124c

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Doesn't a Bombardment TF change to a Surface TF if it encounters a surface fleet in the bombardment hex? I know that after a bombardment the TF changes to a Surface TF.

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- 4/26/2003 1:17:00 AM

Snigbert

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[B]Amazingly I'm embarassed to admit that I had no idea that you could right-click and choose a hex instead of a base in the hex as a destination.[/B]

I was clueless about that until just now :)

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- 4/26/2003 9:43:11 AM

demonterico

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The intracacies of this game make my head spin. Its very deep, but thats why I love it.

I do like sending bombardment TFs into action. They always seem to do the best work. I especially like attacking a hex with 2 or 3 bombardment TFs in the same day. Its a great way to clean up. Concentration of force, yah know.

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