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RE: WitE 2 - 11/4/2016 11:34:05 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		I wouldn't. Russia was *not* going to surrender. Surrender meant extermination, and they knew it.

And a coup wasn't going to happen either. A regime that lost territory equal to the United States up to and past the Mississippi by 1942, to say nothing of the millions lost, wasn't going to have a coup.

The army wasn't in any shape to launch one. They didn't do it during the purges, certainly not going to do it during a war. The NKVD wasn't about to either.


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RE: WitE 2 - 11/5/2016 6:45:15 PM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 301
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		I do not know if its already been mentioned, but I would like to see the Balkans included in WitE 2. It can start of as partisans popping up until the Soviets get close then become regular military units. The Balkan's eventually became part of the eastern front historically and to totally avoid it in the game would make the game less authentic. I would also like to see a trigger that would bring the Bulgarians into the game as a Soviet ally.

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Post #: 1142
RE: WitE 2 - 11/5/2016 8:39:11 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		The Balkans are included as a Theatre Box.

As to Bulgarians I agree with the sentiment but I'm not sure whether their involvement will be included at release. To be honest too little impact for too much effort. The basic setup of counters and consideration in the data is there. Perhaps a good what if for a scenario expansion.

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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 1143
RE: WitE 2 - 11/6/2016 6:10:11 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		WITE2 sounds very exciting. I really enjoyed WITW, and my impression from this thread is that many of the features of WITW will be weaved into WITE2.

Will the air-war features of WITW be adopted by WITE2? (I'm sorry if this question is already answered in this thread; I read back a few months and couldn't find a discussion of it, and I can't figure out how to search the thread.)

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RE: WitE 2 - 11/6/2016 8:20:30 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

WITE2 sounds very exciting. I really enjoyed WITW, and my impression from this thread is that many of the features of WITW will be weaved into WITE2.

Will the air-war features of WITW be adopted by WITE2? (I'm sorry if this question is already answered in this thread; I read back a few months and couldn't find a discussion of it, and I can't figure out how to search the thread.)


yes, the process of setting up air directives and them being run before the land phase is part of the WitE2 design.

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RE: WitE 2 - 11/7/2016 6:43:50 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Glad to hear it! I really enjoyed the air war in WITW. Thanks for replying.

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RE: WitE 2 - 11/8/2016 11:01:50 PM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 301
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

The Balkans are included as a Theatre Box.

As to Bulgarians I agree with the sentiment but I'm not sure whether their involvement will be included at release. To be honest too little impact for too much effort. The basic setup of counters and consideration in the data is there. Perhaps a good what if for a scenario expansion.


If you guys cannot include the Balkans other than in a Theatre Box, at least, make the Balkan map area accessible in the editor for those people who want to create mods or new scenarios. I already have a complete Bulgarian OOB with artwork. How big will the map be compared to WitE?





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Post #: 1147
RE: WitE 2 - 11/9/2016 8:24:25 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
quote:

How big will the map be compared to WitE?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
It's the same map as WitW but we are working on some necessary improvements. Double rail lines and how we show variable road quality (which can now be set by individual hex and not just country) are currently quite important.


It is bigger than in WitE.

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Post #: 1148
RE: WitE 2 - 11/9/2016 8:44:04 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		I'am not sûre WITE need "more ground", more theater more detail, more air war, bigger etc.....

Do not forget it is first a game.

The things to play with are already enormous.
As i count on my soviet game end 1941 :
47 army HQ, 40 cavalry divisions, 359 rifle divisions, 100 rifle brigages, 93 tank brigades, 55 Air bases.

If work have to be done, it is to reduce the workload of having to manage so much things each turn.

I know that :
- Air bases system is reworked for easier use (good).
- Tank brigades converted to support unit (good).
- Rifle brigade i do not know.

For support units, i think the game may concentrate on fewer, big, meaningfull support units instead of having tons of small support units.
Same thing for air squadrons.

For common units like division, i think it could be a good idea to increase the bonus of static units (for example decrease in low level attrition, bonus to fortification, defensive bonus), to encourage people to set part of the front to sleep when there is not so much action there and help reducing the workload of a turn.

Turn processing time is also very important for many people.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 11/9/2016 8:49:57 AM >

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Post #: 1149
RE: WitE 2 - 11/9/2016 8:49:05 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		Rifle brigades, AT, etc. can be converted to support units as well.

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Post #: 1150
RE: WitE 2 - 11/9/2016 8:50:13 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Rifle brigades, AT, etc. can be converted to support units as well.


Good news !!



< Message edited by Stelteck -- 11/9/2016 8:52:00 AM >

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Post #: 1151
RE: WitE 2 - 11/9/2016 9:17:41 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		Once again I feel the need to highlight that we are still deep in alpha and much can still change.

Stelteck's comment are spot on. Complexity and processing power are key considerations on why some elements are placed in Theatre Boxes even though we have the area on the map. We do have the ability to set in the editor those regions that are assigned to which theatre box. For Bulgaria the key element is whether we hook up the code to allow the Bulgarian counters to be in play. Personally I would like this to be the case for what if wargaming. However it is a nice to have rather than an essential element of delivering the game.

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WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 1152
RE: WitE 2 - 11/9/2016 9:26:25 PM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Just to share a few thoughts following up my posts a couple pages back, after having played a bit more of the latest versions of WitW:

* The logistics and combat engine are now speaking to each other more clearly, and you get quite a fair bit of feedback. The Torch to Tunisia campaign is a very good testbed for that. Certainly, Lybia is much more bare than Russia west of the Urals, but having limited communications and a much bigger density of forces (like 10 times more) *should* put quite a brake on the tempo of offensive operations, unless significant planning is done and preparation is conducted. I also liked a lot having to make choices of who was getting priority with supplies - there was a real sense of scarcity!

* With the above in place, then certainly, having shorter turns matters less. WitE was a quite deep game, and WitW (and by extension WitE2) will be an even deeper game.

* The distribution of combat results is way, way less extreme. Or perhaps that's because the experience/morale levels are more even?

* Routing seems to be less extreme as well.

* I think that ground combat assumes that the defending player wants to defend very badly any terrain their units are sitting on. Perhaps having a setting that allows the player to set the behaviour of his units in such a way that these would attempt to break contact when facing crazy odds would be a good thing. The losses tolerance threshold of TOAW is perhaps a model for such a thing. This would go a long way to dispel concerns about the ability of the defending player to setup an elastic defense. Of course, there needs to be a chance that by trying to retreat things get "worse" for the defender - that's why elastic defense requires well trained and organised forces.

Just that for now. I am quite impressed by the current state of WitW, even if there's still stuff I don't really understand regarding air operations.


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RE: WitE 2 - 11/9/2016 10:06:56 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

...

* The distribution of combat results is way, way less extreme. Or perhaps that's because the experience/morale levels are more even?

...



I think its also a product of a fairly accurate pre-attack indicator of the likely actual odds. In a way WiTW is a bit like WiTE when played with the alt-cv rules. Apart from reserve reaction there is much less variability between indicated cv ratio and actual.

The few times it seems to be out is due to the estimate not really capturing low supply/ammo so that is something you still need to guess around or the effect (good and bad) of certain unit types in certain terrain.

Its far less a product of rough heuristics than estimating likely final odds is in WiTE?

I'd agree that the Torch scenarios are good training grounds for supply in the more marginal areas of the map.

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Post #: 1154
RE: WitE 2 - 11/9/2016 10:19:53 PM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
I think its also a product of a fairly accurate pre-attack indicator of the likely actual odds. In a way WiTW is a bit like WiTE when played with the alt-cv rules. Apart from reserve reaction there is much less variability between indicated cv ratio and actual.


Thanks for sharing that insight, Loki.


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
The few times it seems to be out is due to the estimate not really capturing low supply/ammo so that is something you still need to guess around or the effect (good and bad) of certain unit types in certain terrain.


Indeed, that always has been important.

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
Its far less a product of rough heuristics than estimating likely final odds is in WiTE?


That's for sure

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RE: WitE 2 - 11/10/2016 2:24:37 AM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

Final odds is also determined by the intermediate combat sequence. For example, a dug in Mountain Regiment...in a mountain hex, will show a very high CV for defence.

If you attack him with 6 infantry divisions...you may start with a 1 - 4 odds ratio...but end up winning the combat with a final odds of like 10-1 or more.

That's because the artillery..etc of the 6 divisions will do a lot more damage to the smaller unit then the small unit can do back in return..

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Post #: 1156
RE: WitE 2 - 11/10/2016 4:39:03 AM   
Naughteous Maximus


Posts: 301
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Will you be able to attach support units to the Axis allies at a divisional level as you can to the German divisions?

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Post #: 1157
RE: WitE 2 - 11/10/2016 8:08:36 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naughteous Maximus

Will you be able to attach support units to the Axis allies at a divisional level as you can to the German divisions?


yes, and to Soviet divisions.

whether its the best use of such resources is a different question

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Post #: 1158
RE: WitE 2 - 11/11/2016 4:49:38 AM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline
Ahh..I remember in good 'ol War in Russia I would attach all the axis minors divisions to the panzer corps for them to be dragged all over Russia....by the end of the year, they would all have decent experience from all the battles the panzer corps won.

The game has come a long way from the early 90's


< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 11/11/2016 4:50:07 AM >

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Post #: 1159
RE: WitE 2 - 11/15/2016 10:29:42 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 688
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


Ahh..I remember in good 'ol War in Russia I would attach all the axis minors divisions to the panzer corps for them to be dragged all over Russia....by the end of the year, they would all have decent experience from all the battles the panzer corps won.

The game has come a long way from the early 90's



It was the first computer wargame that I bought, endless hours of fun interspersed with frenetic turns of Elite, Happy days indeded.

Anyway to get back on topic, is there any chance that fortification units will be country specific so you can build Axis minor country forts in Russia as you are able to do with German forts

Manstein63

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Post #: 1160
RE: WitE 2 - 11/15/2016 11:42:19 PM   
Hunter63

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 6/14/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Just to share a few thoughts following up my posts a couple pages back, after having played a bit more of the latest versions of WitW:

* The logistics and combat engine are now speaking to each other more clearly, and you get quite a fair bit of feedback.
The Torch to Tunisia campaign is a very good testbed for that. Certainly, Lybia is much more bare than Russia west of the Urals, but having limited communications and a much bigger density of forces (like 10 times more) *should* put quite a brake on the tempo of offensive operations, unless significant planning is done and preparation is conducted. I also liked a lot having to make choices of who was getting priority with supplies - there was a real sense of scarcity!

* With the above in place, then certainly, having shorter turns matters less. WitE was a quite deep game,
and WitW (and by extension WitE2) will be an even deeper game.

* The distribution of combat results is way, way less extreme. Or perhaps that's because the experience/morale levels are more even?

* Routing seems to be less extreme as well.

* I think that ground combat assumes that the defending player wants to defend very badly any terrain their units are sitting on.
Perhaps having a setting that allows the player to set the behaviour of his units in such a way that these would attempt to break
contact when facing crazy odds would be a good thing. The losses tolerance threshold of TOAW is perhaps a model for such a thing.
This would go a long way to dispel concerns about the ability of the defending player to setup an elastic defense.
Of course, there needs to be a chance that by trying to retreat things get "worse" for the defender -
that's why elastic defense requires well trained and organised forces.

Just that for now. I am quite impressed by the current state of WitW, even if there's still stuff I don't
really understand regarding air operations.



Seeing you are compairing "WitE was a quite deep game,
and WitW (and by extension WitE2) will be an even deeper game".and I have some exp playing Pelton in PBeM games stress testing
WitW logistics,air and combat systems I can say

* WitW logistics system from what I have seen on forums and can compare to playing many hours vs Pelton - Pelton has dug much deeper then
anyone by allot.

I very much look forward to playing 2.0 after learning what I have during my beat downs as Germany vs the Pelton's allied horde.

I like your idea about unit behavior, but think it not likely as this will really bog down the AI.

WitW was very laggy aka slow, but has improved. We are talking many more units, supplies, trucks, trains, planes ect ect with 2.0

I would hate to be programming that. 1 bad line in 10,000 can cause many issues or snowball chains - many turns/years later.

I can see why it will take a few yrs to just get the first 12 months to run to say nothing of a full 4 yrs.

Massive project to say the least.

Good Luck 2by3 and best wishes.



(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 1161
RE: WitE 2 - 11/16/2016 6:35:48 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		Hi Pelton

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Post #: 1162
RE: WitE 2 - 11/16/2016 8:09:15 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Hi Pelton



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Post #: 1163
RE: WitE 2 - 11/16/2016 8:39:05 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		Some of you may have noticed that I now have Moderator status on the WitE forum. I have PM'd Hunter63 and made it clear that I won't allow him to act as Pelton by proxy.

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WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 1164
RE: WitE 2 - 11/17/2016 7:06:52 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		same rules apply to him as everyone else

+1 Red and congrats on the mod badge, suits you

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Post #: 1165
RE: WitE 2 - 11/17/2016 7:24:49 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

same rules apply to him as everyone else

+1 Red and congrats on the mod badge, suits you


It does.


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Post #: 1166
RE: WitE 2 - 11/17/2016 8:19:09 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		You're so kind. Maybe I need a new avatar. This looks inspirational....




Attachment (1)

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John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 1167
RE: WitE 2 - 11/17/2016 8:31:24 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		yes, looks good, now one for me


(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1168
RE: WitE 2 - 11/24/2016 10:01:06 AM   
Confusedesh

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 7/3/2006
Status: offline 		For those interested I got WitW to see if I could create a map for WitE2, I tend to prefer a more map like and stylised appearance.

Progress so far.
[image][/image]
Map with Light mud effect (West) and Heavy mud effect (East).






Northern Italy summer.




So many things you can do and so many tweaks to get things right but I am happy so far with the direction.


More detail.
[image][/image]



< Message edited by Confusedesh -- 11/24/2016 1:42:58 PM >

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Post #: 1169
RE: WitE 2 - 11/24/2016 5:30:28 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		Very nice have you changed the bocage and polder art too?

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 1170
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