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How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historically?

 
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How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historically? - 12/6/2016 6:56:33 AM   
String


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Status: offline 		As the thread title says, what's the maximum number of torpedo hits in ww2 that a ship has survived and still made it back to port and after that, back to service? IIRC there was a thread on the same subject ages ago and IIRC the consensus was that it was a maximum of 2? However my memory is fuzzy and it seems to be a nice subject to re-visit.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 7:52:27 AM   
Gunnulf


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Status: offline 		Technically Littorio took 3 at Taranto and was back in service 4 months later, but she didn't have far to go to port obviously.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 7:52:38 AM   
adarbrauner

 

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Status: offline 		By memory, Musashi took several (7? 10?) to go down, from this one could infere her durability.

Vittorio Veneto took one at Taranto and one in Cape Matapan, if I recollect well. Bismarck took how many , and still kept her sea worthiness, one on the rudder?

Are there other relevant cases?

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 7:53:33 AM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

Technically Littorio took 3 at Taranto and was back in service 4 months later, but she didn't have far to go to port obviously.

I think it was Vittorio Veneto not littorio, but i may be be wrong... 3 took you say?

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 7:57:23 AM   
wdolson

 

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This isn't what you're looking for, but the US finally figured out there was a serious problem with their torpedoes when a US sub blew off the propeller on an unescorted freighter with it's first torpedo. They then lined up for the perfect textbook shot (the target was pretty much stationary at that point) and they ended up firing every last torpedo except for one and scored a hit with every torpedo, but they were all duds. They took the last one back to Pearl Harbor to report. They test fired the one torpedo against a cliff face and it went off, but the brass were finally listening. They discovered the firing pins were too fragile. On a glancing angle, the force on the pin was less and the torpedo would explode, but if the angle was "perfect" the firing pin would shatter before setting off the charge. They made new firing pins and replaced all the pins on torpedoes in stock and the US started getting better results.

In this case only one was an exploding hit and it was pretty much a near miss as it only blew off the propeller (and I think it damaged the rudder), but didn't breach hull integrity.

At Midway a US sub scored a couple of hits on the Akagi after she was set on fire, but those didn't explode either.

I don't know of any ship that survived more than one torpedo hit at one time. The Saratoga was torpedoed twice, but it was two separate occasions months apart.

There are many ships that survived a single hit. I believe one or two destroyers managed to survive a hit on the extreme end of the ship.

Bill

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 7:59:52 AM   
Gunnulf


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Status: offline 		I wasn't there but I believe so, Veneto wasn't actually hit at all in the raid.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 8:56:57 AM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

By memory, Musashi took several (7? 10?) to go down, from this one could infere her durability.

Vittorio Veneto took one at Taranto and one in Cape Matapan, if I recollect well. Bismarck took how many , and still kept her sea worthiness, one on the rudder?

Are there other relevant cases?


But IIRC she did settle on the bottom ie. would have sunk if out in the open. Also, Musashi and Bismarck never made it back to port nor for continued service, those torpedo hits doomed them, if not directly sank them in Bismarck's case.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 11:57:15 AM   
geofflambert


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Status: offline 		These ships didn't survive but here's what they took:

Yamato "at least" 6 bombs and 11 torpedoes

Yahagi 12 bombs and 7 torpedoes

Musashi 17 bombs and 19 torpedoes. Since none of these hits registered after she sank, you could say she survived them for at least a little while.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 2:35:25 PM   
Buckrock

 

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Status: offline 		From Combinedfleet.com :-

"22 July 1943:
Formosa Straits. At 2355, SEIA MARU is torpedoed and badly damaged by three of six torpedoes fired in a surface radar attack by LtCdr
Eugene T. Sands' USS SAWFISH (SS-276) at 30-54N, 125-15E. She goes dead in the water. Later, the ship is taken in tow by NICHINAN MARU
and together they head back to Japan."


The USS Sawfish's own patrol report describes observing (and feeling) the three torpedo detonations (forward, amidships and aft) on
the targeted ship that was by then over 8000yds away but still clearly visible at that time.

The Seia Maru was a 6700ton (GRT) auxilliary ammuntion ship. A somewhat unlikely candidate but it was at sea when reportedly hit by
three torpedoes and did make it back to port (several days later) and did eventually return to service (only to be sunk in 1944).

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 2:49:43 PM   
Macclan5


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Status: offline 		Midway : Yorktown: From WikiPedia

Hiryū's second attack wave, consisting of ten B5Ns and six escorting A6Ms, arrived over the Yorktown; the repair efforts had been so effective that the Japanese pilots assumed that Yorktown must be a different, undamaged carrier.[113] They attacked, crippling Yorktown with two torpedoes; she lost all power and developed a 23-degree list to port. Five torpedo bombers and two fighters were shot down in this attack.

But she survived !

Until

Late afternoon 6 June the Japanese submarine I-168, which had managed to slip through the cordon of destroyers (possibly because of the large amount of debris in the water), fired a salvo of torpedoes, two of which struck Yorktown.

With further salvage efforts deemed hopeless, the remaining repair crews were evacuated from Yorktown, which sank just after 05:00 on 7 June.

Which eventually sunk her but it does not exactly equate. Had the Hammond not sunk (providing auxiliary power), or another ship was able to provide auxiliary power immediately after, and or if Yorktown had maintained power and a full damage support crew.... ???

But that is what if.

Survive two but not four.

And these were "world class Japanese Torps" at the time.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 3:01:13 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		Well, American torpedoes had magnetic devices that were so unreliable that the use of them was practically abandoned in favor of the contact warhead. The problem with this is that a contact explosion on the side of a ship was much less effective than if a working magnetic device were to explode underneath. I read accounts of American subs firing multiple torpedoes at merchant ship- (some cargoes make them amazingly buoyant) and getting solid explosions with very little effect. I recall one sub using five hits to put one merchant down. Tankers could be very tough if they were not set aflame.

People like to quote the durability of the two Japanese super ships but in reality they were probably in a sinking state well before many of those torpedo hits were recorded. They were tough ships no doubt but American pilots tended to fixate on them long after they were doomed. probably many of the torpedo hits were redundant.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 3:21:05 PM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		One must keep in mind the power of differing torpedoes in order to say which ship survived the most destructive attack. The airborne torpedo the Japanese used had a far smaller warhead than a sub or surface launched torpedo. One recent article stated that the reason why the USS Oklahoma was the only ship at Pearl on the 7th to turn turtle was because she was the only one hit by a submarine launched torpedo which did extensive damage well within the ship. All other ships struck by torpedoes at Pearl and "sank" did so on an even keel. This "evidence" supports the belief that a midget sub DID penetrate Pearl and did launch it's torpedoes at battleship row, striking the Oklahoma at least once. Photos of the Oklahoma, once raised in Pearl, do show that she was the only ship to have her armored hull breached during the attack. Again suggesting that she was hit by something far more powerful than a torpedo launched by a Kate. My point is that if struck by many airborne torpedoes is not the same as being struck by one surface/subsurface launched torpedo (especially if one is using a magnetic device that detonates below the keel).

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 3:30:10 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		Large modern ships built right before or during the war were amazingly durable and designed to take a tremendous amount of damage. I think that most American BBs and CVs could easily handle multiple torpedo hits, and many more bomb hits. Most Japanese ships as well. The problem was that the took these very tough ships and filled them full of bangy-explody things. So, it rarely was a bomb hit or torpedo hit that did in a big ship but the collateral damage such as major system failure or sympathetic fuel and ammo explosions. One torpedo was just fine if it set off a massive fuel explosion. But if the ship took multiple hits and fire or an explosion (or pump failure) did not take materialize, they probably would survive. Really just a matter of luck in a lot of cases.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 3:40:23 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

These ships didn't survive but here's what they took:

Yamato "at least" 6 bombs and 11 torpedoes

Yahagi 12 bombs and 7 torpedoes

Musashi 17 bombs and 19 torpedoes. Since none of these hits registered after she sank, you could say she survived them for at least a little while.


Torpedo-Eating Contest
1.Musashi
2.Yamato
3.Yahagi

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 4:23:12 PM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		You're certainly right in a focused way CR, but if the torpedo or bomb damaged caused the fire that blew the magazine, then it was the torpedo or bomb that sunk the ship, albeit indirectly. In fact one could argue the point you make for almost ANY ship that is sunk. For example the USS Arizona was not "sunk" by the bomb the Kate dropped, but by the explosion of the forward magazine. But I think most historians give credit to the Japanese Kate.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 5:35:35 PM   
Lokasenna


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Status: offline 		Don't forget Hornet in the torpedo eating contest.

There are instances where it's possible a ship could have survived after multiple torpedo hits, but usually the ship was either finished off afterwards or scuttled. Yorktown and Hornet come immediately to mind there.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 6:54:14 PM   
BBfanboy


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Status: offline 		RN DD Kelly took three torpedoes on two separate occasions from S-boats (E-Boat to the Brits) and TBs. The two torpedo hits were fore and aft so large chambers were not flooded. The single hit was amidship and Kelly was nearly decks awash. After surviving all that and being rebuilt, Kelly was lost to Stuka bombs in the Battle for Crete. She held them off until her AAA ammo ran out and then maneuvering wasn't enough.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 7:12:13 PM   
SheperdN7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Don't forget Hornet in the torpedo eating contest.


+1
That was just plain embarrassing on the US side of things. I guess that since the ships power went out, they wouldn't just "counter flood" the whole thing throughout.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 7:15:06 PM   
SheperdN7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

At Midway a US sub scored a couple of hits on the Akagi after she was set on fire, but those didn't explode either.


I didn't realize any US subs fired torps at any of the CV's that day. Wasn't Hiryu the only one that was actually possible to save?

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 7:15:17 PM   
Denniss

 

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Status: offline 		German Battleship Scharnhorst is claimed to have been hit by 10-14 torps + many Artillery hits of various caliber.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/6/2016 7:33:07 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

German Battleship Scharnhorst is claimed to have been hit by 10-14 torps + many Artillery hits of various caliber.

Really? I have never seen numbers like that - more like four hits and some more possible but unable to verify because they were fired into a pall of smoke at night and no one could actually see Scharnhorst. After torpedoes were fired the guns opened up again on radar bearings, so they would have masked the explosions of torpedoes. I think the firing only ceased when the Scharnhorst disappeared off radar.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/7/2016 2:09:44 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

At Midway a US sub scored a couple of hits on the Akagi after she was set on fire, but those didn't explode either.


I didn't realize any US subs fired torps at any of the CV's that day. Wasn't Hiryu the only one that was actually possible to save?


I think it was the Nautilus. All the IJN CVs were still water tight when scuttled. They all had such extensive fire damage above the waterline there was little left to save. The Kaga was the worst damaged. Eye witnesses said that a big chunk of the ship amidships was just gone, the fires burned away several decks of steel. The Soryu had the deepest damage, a 1000 lb bomb penetrated deep into the ship before exploding.

Oh one ship that was saved after multiple hits was the USS California. It took two torpedoes at Pearl Harbor and then beached to save the ship. That's the only one I can think of that took more than one torpedo the same day and was put back into service, but the damage was extensive enough if she hadn't been in port she would have been lost.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/7/2016 3:01:26 AM   
BBfanboy


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Status: offline 		I thought Nevada was the only BB that got moving at PH?

All this talk of Japanese CVs at Midway makes me think the first three hit are the champion torpedo takers - all the torps on their Kates exploded on board so you could say they were hit by torpedoes!

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/7/2016 5:49:03 AM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
I think it was the Nautilus. All the IJN CVs were still water tight when scuttled. They all had such extensive fire damage above the waterline there was little left to save. The Kaga was the worst damaged. Eye witnesses said that a big chunk of the ship amidships was just gone, the fires burned away several decks of steel. The Soryu had the deepest damage, a 1000 lb bomb penetrated deep into the ship before exploding.


It was USS Nautilus, although she described her target as a "Soryu" class carrier. Four torpedoes were ordered fired, three successfully left the
tubes toward a motionless Kaga 2700 yds away. Two of these torpedoes "ran errantly" (according to the book Shattered Sword) and the last
struck home but failed to explode.

On the upside, Nautilus could probably put a claim in for the eventual sinking of both the Kaga and Akagi anyway as the submarine's determined
but unsuccessful efforts against KB earlier in the day had led the destroyer Arashi to remain behind to keep the Nautilus down when KB moved off.
McCluskey's spotting of Arashi as she later made her way back to rejoin KB is considered one of the pivotal events in how the battle then unfolded.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/7/2016 1:36:03 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

One must keep in mind the power of differing torpedoes in order to say which ship survived the most destructive attack. The airborne torpedo the Japanese used had a far smaller warhead than a sub or surface launched torpedo. One recent article stated that the reason why the USS Oklahoma was the only ship at Pearl on the 7th to turn turtle was because she was the only one hit by a submarine launched torpedo which did extensive damage well within the ship. All other ships struck by torpedoes at Pearl and "sank" did so on an even keel. This "evidence" supports the belief that a midget sub DID penetrate Pearl and did launch it's torpedoes at battleship row, striking the Oklahoma at least once. Photos of the Oklahoma, once raised in Pearl, do show that she was the only ship to have her armored hull breached during the attack. Again suggesting that she was hit by something far more powerful than a torpedo launched by a Kate. My point is that if struck by many airborne torpedoes is not the same as being struck by one surface/subsurface launched torpedo (especially if one is using a magnetic device that detonates below the keel).


"... A newly declassified photograph taken by a Japanese plane during the attack appeared to show a mini-sub firing a torpedo into Battleship Row. A report to Congress in 1942 by Adm. Chester W. Nimitz describes an unexploded 800-pound torpedo recovered after the battle. That's twice the size carried by the torpedo bombers."

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/7/2016 3:28:32 PM   
Buckrock

 

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Status: offline 		Zimm in his "Attack on Pearl Harbor" spends a chapter on this, concluding that while it is impossible to disprove that the fifth midget submarine
didn't enter Pearl Harbor and launch its torpedoes at something, the evidence does not support a likely submarine torpedoing of any US battleships
at Pearl.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/7/2016 4:41:52 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Zimm in his "Attack on Pearl Harbor" spends a chapter on this, concluding that while it is impossible to disprove that the fifth midget submarine
didn't enter Pearl Harbor and launch its torpedoes at something, the evidence does not support a likely submarine torpedoing of any US battleships
at Pearl.


I think the declassified photo shows a distinctive "rooster tail," i.e., the spray kicked-up when the stern of the mini-sub is pushed upward as the bow is pushed down right after its torpedo is launched.


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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/8/2016 5:28:23 AM   
Buckrock

 

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Status: offline 		Zimm does deal with the photograph showing the "object", its three "rooster tails" and also the "torpedo tracks" that appear to be
emanating from the "object".

Zimm's view was that previous investigations of the photograph demonstrated the visible water plumes could not have been produced by a
porpoising midget submarine as that type moved too slowly to produce plumes that high.

He also stated that a midget submarine could not have been responsible for the multiple torpedo tracks in the photo as it was incapable
of firing more than one torpedo per minute (ie no salvos) and finally, there were no witness reports mentioning any "porpoising submarine"
in that area, including any from those personnel in a boat seen in the photograph only some 20 yards from the "object" and its "rooster
tails".

I'm not suggesting Zimm has to be correct but he is an acknowledged authority on the Pearl Harbor attack so I thought it was worth
mentioning.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/8/2016 6:19:44 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Zimm does deal with the photograph showing the "object", its three "rooster tails" and also the "torpedo tracks" that appear to be
emanating from the "object".

Zimm's view was that previous investigations of the photograph demonstrated the visible water plumes could not have been produced by a
porpoising midget submarine as that type moved too slowly to produce plumes that high.

He also stated that a midget submarine could not have been responsible for the multiple torpedo tracks in the photo as it was incapable
of firing more than one torpedo per minute (ie no salvos) and finally, there were no witness reports mentioning any "porpoising submarine"
in that area, including any from those personnel in a boat seen in the photograph only some 20 yards from the "object" and its "rooster
tails".

I'm not suggesting Zimm has to be correct but he is an acknowledged authority on the Pearl Harbor attack so I thought it was worth
mentioning.

The photo and discussion I saw online clearly showed a torpedo track emanating from a shape in the water while Kates were dropping their torpedoes from just a little further away from battleship row, so one track was from the mini-sub and there were several from the Kates. As for eyewitnesses - they would have been looking at the Kates, not the hard-to-see dark spot in the water. Furthermore, investigation of the mini-subs found within PH shows that they no longer had their two torpedoes in their tubes.

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RE: How many torpedo hits has as ship survived historic... - 12/8/2016 8:16:54 AM   
adarbrauner

 

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