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WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2

 
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WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 10:30:34 AM   
ClipSolo

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 12/7/2016
Status: offline 		Hi!

I've found my love for wargaming again and got WitE and Campaign series ME. WitE really is something I enjoy. I like the possibility to delve deep into the details, and don't mind spending hours/days on one turn.

But now it occurred to me that I'd like to play on other fronts too. Campaign series is a great "snack" in between more serious stuff of WitE.

What's the general consensus here? Should I go WitW + Torch, WitPAE or perhaps even Schwerpunkt's WWII?

I'm not quite sure about WitPAE's scale, as the Hexes are perhaps a bit too "big". Schwerpunkt is not Matrix/Slitherine I know, but there seems to be very little information about the game overall, and I can't find a single proper youtube video of it...

Sorry for an open question, but I'd like to find a great game with good longevity, and of course, a living community. :) That's why I like you guys! :D (even though I've just started lurking around here ;)

< Message edited by ClipSolo -- 12/14/2016 10:31:22 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 10:39:00 AM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		that's a hard one as there all good games, for me i'd go for WITW+ Torch just for a newer engine,

both WitPAE, & Schwerpunkt's WWII are in epic scale mind you so you tend to buy and then live there for a few years, with imo WITW being a bit easier to learn and master and have the time for, as the other 2 are very very long games, not saying WITW isn't either, but you can play some shorter ones in and finishes them in the same week, while the others your lucky if it's in your life time or year etc depending on how many hours / weeks / months / years you wish to spend on a given game 

http://grogheads.com/?p=7117

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RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 11:12:25 AM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline 		On the more lighter side but very enjoyable, and with a living community, check out Panzer Corps:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=907
http://store.steampowered.com/app/268400/
Welcome to the boards Jani!

Patrick

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RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 11:34:29 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
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Status: offline 		WitW would be my choice hands down.

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Post #: 4
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 12:27:09 PM   
Alan Sharif

 

Posts: 1108
Joined: 8/1/2001
From: UK.
Status: offline 		Another vote here for WitW, no contest IMO.

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RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 1:03:04 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Personally I'd go for DC Barbarossa..but if it has to be on a bigger scale then WITW..as your best waiting I think for WITE2

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RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 2:33:47 PM   
pepita17

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 3/16/2014
Status: offline 		By the way do we have a release date for WITE2 ?

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Post #: 7
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 2:37:59 PM   
ClipSolo

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 12/7/2016
Status: offline 		Wow. Thanks for The replies!

I might get WitW+torch, as many suggested. As I'm first and foremost a gamer, not a designer, I think Grigsbys games offer me most engaging scenarios and accuracy. Schwerpunkt's game look great but compared to this community here, they lose big time (as proven right here, this was my first post and so many of you replied! :D)

WitPAE seems a bit much, and being an European myself (Finnish tbh) I think I can "feel" the western front better than the Pacific.

But who knows, the sale is on after Xmas too. We all know what that might mean. :D

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 8
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 2:41:04 PM   
ClipSolo

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 12/7/2016
Status: offline 		Oh, i didn't say that out loud, but Panzer Corps is the very reason this all came back to me in the first place. :D

And thank you (all) for the warm welcome!

(in reply to wings7)
Post #: 9
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 2:54:21 PM   
MrsWargamer


Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline 		Judging on the way you wrote your post I'd say go with continuity and indulge WitW.

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Post #: 10
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 2:58:31 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: monjoie

By the way do we have a release date for WITE2 ?


its still in alpha testing so hard to say. In favour of quick progress is that it can draw on concepts and research for both WiTE and WiTW on the other hand it is going to be a long game with lots of dynamics so its not just a case of creating the systems but balancing etc.

There is a good thread about WiTE2 in the WiTE main forum - worth a read.

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Post #: 11
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 3:10:55 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClipSolo

Hi!

I've found my love for wargaming again and got WitE and Campaign series ME. WitE really is something I enjoy. I like the possibility to delve deep into the details, and don't mind spending hours/days on one turn.

But now it occurred to me that I'd like to play on other fronts too. Campaign series is a great "snack" in between more serious stuff of WitE.

What's the general consensus here? Should I go WitW + Torch, WitPAE or perhaps even Schwerpunkt's WWII?

I'm not quite sure about WitPAE's scale, as the Hexes are perhaps a bit too "big". Schwerpunkt is not Matrix/Slitherine I know, but there seems to be very little information about the game overall, and I can't find a single proper youtube video of it...

Sorry for an open question, but I'd like to find a great game with good longevity, and of course, a living community. :) That's why I like you guys! :D (even though I've just started lurking around here ;)


Note that the recommendations you are receiving come from people who have not mastered, if ever actually played, WITP:AE.

If you are really only interested in land combat then both WITE and WITW are "superior" to WITPAE although in saying that not every land combat element of the two ETO games is better than WITP:AE.

On the other hand if coming to grips with combined warfare operations is desirable then the two ETO games are very inferior to the PTO game. WITP:AE not only demands good combined arms operations, it rewards good strategic play and conversely punishes bad strategic play. In strategy terms, the two ETO games are far inferior. IOW the ETO games are very much constrained to operational considerations whereas the PTO game, whilst it can be approached as only an operational level game it can only be mastered by players who grasp both the overall strategic level and handle adroitly the tactical opportunities provided in the naval/air components. These opportunities basically do not exist in the ETO games.

It follows that to master WITP:AE a much higher degree of micromanagement is required than for the ETO games. However, the degree of required micromanagement is a lot less than many would lead you to believe is essential.

The hexes of WITP:AE are most definitely not too big. What you, and others must understand, is that the PTO was principally a naval war. This is why even though the land combat portion is not as polished as the naval and air components, its deficiencies are not fatal. The land combat component of WITP:AE is any case much more polished than are the equivalent weak components (naval/air) of the two ETO games. As I said, for combined arms warfare the two ETO games don't even appear in the rear vision mirror of WITP:AE, they are that far behind.

With regard to having a "living community" the breath and depth of the WITP:AE forum makes the other two look like footnotes. There really is no comparison when considering the length of time before response to new threads appear, nor the amount of advice received. The degree of game support is superior and the availability of reliable and polished mods is substantial. Not only are there some 17 "official" scenarios (of which more than 6 are full length campaigns) there are upwards of 10 other "unofficial" scenarios created by the developers who created the "official" scenarios. Plus there are many other scenarios developed by players, some of which have received direct assistance from the "official" scenario designers.

Also with regard to assessing the worth of a "living community" one should take into account the number of people available to play WITP:AE by PBEM. Just look at the opponents wanted sub section.

The industrial component of WITP:AE is more substantial than that found in the ETO games. The combat animations are better too. The standard official maps (there are various ones depending on the desired parameters) are good but if they do not appeal there are some very good alternative maps which have been produced by the community.

Really, the best way to approach these choices is to read the AARs. Here again you will be surprised at the large number of WITP:AE AARs produced and kept up to date plus their quality. If you do that, look into the various WITP:AE forums. Compared to all the other Matrix forums you will be pleasantly surprised at the high level of traffic, almost all of which is very much dealing only with the game.

Alfred

(in reply to ClipSolo)
Post #: 12
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 3:27:15 PM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Note that the recommendations you are receiving come from people who have not mastered, if ever actually played, WITP:AE.


Thanks for your excellent post ...how do you know who has played or mastered War in the Pacific - Admiral's Edition?


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RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 4:16:46 PM   
Gilmer


Posts: 1452
Joined: 7/1/2011
Status: offline 		Schwerpunkt has a lot of scenarios, but the campaigns of the others are pretty stupendous.

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Post #: 14
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 4:21:00 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		Alfred makes very valid points. I have played both extensively and helped develop WitW. The games are only really similar in the title Gary Grigsby's War in the... and a fair whack of micromanagement. One is WEGO and the other IGOUGO.

I don't have a bad word to say about WitP:AE. The greatest criticism raised against WitP:AE is its complexity. To me that is no criticism - it is what it is. Any game that can reproduce the whole Pacific War in day long turns is going to be complex. Those who play WitP:AE are hardcore gamers and some can have a tendency to deride other games. Often the justification is based on how busy their forum is. That is a reflection on the community not the game.

I do disagree with Alfred on one thing - the WitW air model is vastly superior to WitP:AE. It has to be to manage the number of aircraft in weekly turns over a more target filled terrain where the hexes are smaller.

The WitW naval model is abstracted to the extreme. If you like naval warfare then get WitP:AE. As Alfred says if you like land combat get WitW.



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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 15
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 7:15:42 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		DOn't forget DC Barbarossa

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Post #: 16
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/14/2016 7:39:45 PM   
ClipSolo

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 12/7/2016
Status: offline 		Again, thanks for the answers!

Alfred's points are very good. After WitE (which I'm still totally happy about, so I'm not that interested in DC Barbarossa as of now, but thanks wodin!) I was originally thinking of WitP:AE. The naval aspect, although pretty unknown to me IRL, is definitely exciting and after checking out more videos (by XTRG in Youtube) the map mods really make the game look beautiful (and actually easier to comprehend) :D

What I hadn't completely realize is how different the WEGO system in PW is. Looking at the game proper it certainly seems the size of the hexes is not as meaningful, so I can't hold that against it either.

Damn, so many amazing games! Either way, depending on my xmas budgeting, both of them might end up on my HD as the sale is still available on 8th Jan. :D

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 17
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/15/2016 9:03:20 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Note that the recommendations you are receiving come from people who have not mastered, if ever actually played, WITP:AE.


Thanks for your excellent post ...how do you know who has played or mastered War in the Pacific - Admiral's Edition?



For "ONCE" I'm with you on this one. How does he know what we've mastered or played and found unfulfilling?

(in reply to wings7)
Post #: 18
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/15/2016 11:23:18 AM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Note that the recommendations you are receiving come from people who have not mastered, if ever actually played, WITP:AE.


Thanks for your excellent post ...how do you know who has played or mastered War in the Pacific - Admiral's Edition?



For "ONCE" I'm with you on this one. How does he know what we've mastered or played and found unfulfilling?


Alfred is a legend on our forum (WITPAE).
I would not discount anything he says.

He is extremely intelligent and he can tell by the questions being asked and responses being provided the skill level of players.

I would not be surprised if he monitors all the forums at Matrix and keeps a rough running tally
On the skill levels of a great many players of various games. His memory is exceptional.

I have sometimes speculated that he is not a human being at all but a superior form of artificial intelligence that resides somewhere on the dark web.


(in reply to aaatoysandmore)
Post #: 19
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/15/2016 11:32:04 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Played Shcwerpunkt game yesterday...I know it will REALLY appeal to boardgame players. For me is just a feature or two short at the moment. I love the fact alot of the German units at least have their actual commander mentioned but I'd like the said commander to have some sor tof impact on the game rate on ability. Also maybe for air units something similar with the chnace an Ace is created there fore giving a bonus to said unit..understand at this sort of scale though that may not sound right. Also a chnace of them being wounded and there fore eithe rout of the scenario for good or they come back after certain period of time or theyare killed and you can promote from a list of factual commanders. Things like that would really add some immersion and colour to the game.

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Post #: 20
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/15/2016 1:09:04 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

... For "ONCE" I'm with you on this one. How does he know what we've mastered or played and found unfulfilling?


In your case, that is very easy.

Limiting myself to only two pointers (there are others too) which demonstrate you have no mastery of WITP:AE.

1. You have not bought the game.

2. Your war game inclination gravitates towards the beer and pretzels part of the wargaming spectrum. As a consequence you avoid the monster games which are found in the grognard part of the wargaming spectrum.

No matter how much one reads the relevant forums, it is impossible to master a "monster" game like WITP:AE without playing it and studying the manual plus player created game guides.

Alfred

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Post #: 21
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/15/2016 2:18:24 PM   
IslandInland


Posts: 891
Joined: 12/8/2014
From: YORKSHIRE
Status: offline 		I would recommend WITW and Torch. It's a great game. The air system is very complex but also very rewarding once understood. The land combat system is such that you can start playing without reading a word of the manual and then ease yourself into the complexity at your own pace.

I also have WITP:AE and that's also great. I just prefer ground combat and the European theatre.

I bought Schwerpunkt WW2 last year but failed to get into it due to the esoteric/annoying control system.

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Post #: 22
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/15/2016 3:51:16 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		XXXCorps..yes the UI has little going for it...even a simple thing like scrolling the map can be a pain..

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Post #: 23
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/15/2016 5:57:14 PM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

... For "ONCE" I'm with you on this one. How does he know what we've mastered or played and found unfulfilling?


In your case, that is very easy.

Limiting myself to only two pointers (there are others too) which demonstrate you have no mastery of WITP:AE.

1. You have not bought the game.

2. Your war game inclination gravitates towards the beer and pretzels part of the wargaming spectrum. As a consequence you avoid the monster games which are found in the grognard part of the wargaming spectrum.

No matter how much one reads the relevant forums, it is impossible to master a "monster" game like WITP:AE without playing it and studying the manual plus player created game guides.

Alfred


You have no idea....mr. speculator.

At any rate ChipSolo YOU picked the RIGHT game in WitW. You'll like it a LOT better than WitP-ae.



< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 12/15/2016 6:12:33 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/15/2016 6:20:23 PM   
ClipSolo

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 12/7/2016
Status: offline 		Wodin! Thanks for the short insight on Schwerpunkt. I thought as much. It seems there are games made for playing and games made for designing scenarios, and in that sense it seems Schwerpunkt is made more as a basis for small scenarios made by enthusiasts. Leader features and such gamey stuff is a thing I enjoy in a historical setting wargame. One thing I immediately fell for in WitE was the details which really brought the war to life. If I'm looking at reports, I don't mind the extra detail even though in some cases it could be detrimental to the whole picture. When done properly, the devil is in the details.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 25
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/15/2016 8:05:59 PM   
Blond_Knight


Posts: 1031
Joined: 5/15/2004
Status: offline 		Ive got all the Schwerpunkt except Middle east and they're fun but more of an evolutionary throw-back to Avalon Hill's 'The Longest Day'. Not that that's a bad thing. Their boardgame roots are very apparent. Gameplay is fast and fun. Map scrolling is slow and irritating though.
They're not really comparable to WITE/W, they're so different. Id say try one of the older titles first (RGW or AGW) since theyre half the price of WW2europe to see if you like the style.

(in reply to ClipSolo)
Post #: 26
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/16/2016 12:00:10 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		Unfortunately ClipSolo, the new Schwerpunkt WW2 game will not get an editor until it is finished. We've already waited well over a year. And if you can figure out the old RGW or AGW UI, you are one smart dude.

Anyway, WitE/WitW are good. The editors are deep but very intuitive. WitP-AE editor isn't bad either!

(in reply to Blond_Knight)
Post #: 27
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/16/2016 3:31:15 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline 		The thing I never could get around in Schwerpunkt games was the stacking. Reminded me of Kampfgruppe back in the C64 days where you could just run around the board with all your pieces in "one" stack and beat anything in your path that didn't do the same. Fortunately they fixed that in Battlegroup the next game in the line.

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Post #: 28
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/16/2016 3:19:01 PM   
ClipSolo

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 12/7/2016
Status: offline 		Actually, for now I bought WitPAE. And based on my short tutorial play, it's a very good game. It is also very, very different from WitE.
The hex sizes, which I was concerned about, doesn't really compare in the two, as in WitPAE the player plans operations to and from points on the map (a simplification). It's not pushing chits around at all.

The WeGo system seems super solid and the game gives me the possibility to delve deeeeep into the different details about everything, plan my moves/operations and launch them. I love the fact one can do plans which run over many many turns.

Only thing that is a bit of a challenge is the map/resolution. On a 15" laptop with 1920x1080 it's a bit tough on the eyes, even with clearer map mods. I could lower the resolution, but then the map itself would not look as beautiful. (I'm a graphics man, what can I say ;)

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Post #: 29
RE: WitW, WitPAE or Schwerpunkt WW2 - 12/16/2016 3:44:58 PM   
IslandInland


Posts: 891
Joined: 12/8/2014
From: YORKSHIRE
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClipSolo

Actually, for now I bought WitPAE. And based on my short tutorial play, it's a very good game. It is also very, very different from WitE.
The hex sizes, which I was concerned about, doesn't really compare in the two, as in WitPAE the player plans operations to and from points on the map (a simplification). It's not pushing chits around at all.

The WeGo system seems super solid and the game gives me the possibility to delve deeeeep into the different details about everything, plan my moves/operations and launch them. I love the fact one can do plans which run over many many turns.

Only thing that is a bit of a challenge is the map/resolution. On a 15" laptop with 1920x1080 it's a bit tough on the eyes, even with clearer map mods. I could lower the resolution, but then the map itself would not look as beautiful. (I'm a graphics man, what can I say ;)


You might want to try a different map other than stock if you are a graphics man.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3599038&mpage=1&key=

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3696410&mpage=1&key=


I mostly use the first one but sometimes I use the Cloudy Day variation of the second one.



< Message edited by XXXCorps -- 12/16/2016 3:45:37 PM >

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