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Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/16/2016 5:02:14 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Just published an article on my experience testing Tigers Unleashed.

http://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/2016/12/tigers-unleashed-its-been-long-hard.html

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RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/17/2016 6:00:07 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		Wodin, interesting article, and the game sounds like an interesting hobby project for you and Scott.

But I have to say that the fact that the game is still being fixed four years after release pretty much proves the point that the game was no where close to be ready for release when I bought it as a commercial (not beta) product four years ago. I can say with confidence that this game was the biggest rip-off I've ever purchased. I have not bought a game from HPS or Scott since, and doubt that I will ever do so.

This whole mess reminds me of WiF here on Matrix to some extent, with one major difference: at least WiF's developer is an active participant in the forum, posting about latest developments and plans, responding to questions, etc. For the couple of years I followed TU's forum, I don't recall Scott posting even a single time, not once... For a dev to sell a half-baked game and then not bother to engage with the community at all is simply inexcusable in my view. You call him "reclusive", I call him unresponsive, unprofessional, and not someone I want to buy any more games from.

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Post #: 2
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/17/2016 12:37:33 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Fair enough. However the next patch will be a huge improvement.

If I had been involved pre TU release I'd have talked Scott out of releasing it. I think it wa smainly down to the lack of help and testers why it went out the way it did.

As for the game I pretty happy that if the game was running the way it is for me now I'd have been happy for Scott to release it. Now we are more at the stage of tweaking things to get the game playing out in a historical manner than it is about fixing game killing bugs.

TU is at the stage that something like TOTH is in..i.e a work in progress rather than a bug ridden mess.

I've told SCott what the feeling is out on the forums and he truely is devastated about the situation.

I can also vouch for him and that he really is a genuine decent person.

As for talking with him. If you or anyone else email him he will always reply. It's just that he is so busy working on the game he really doesn't want to take time away from that to monitor and respon to people on forums.

Finally the game is way beyond comaprisons to WIF at this point.

Also if you'd have contacted Scott about your feelings you would have been given a total refund.

It's really tough working on something for many many hours to imporve the game and make it fullfill it's potential not just for myself but for everyone all the time knowing the customer base is uber pi##ed AND knowing the game has a terrible reputation. STill we will carry on.

I think just like in Peter og TOTH case people need to know this also is a labour of love by really just one man. We too have no money to hire people to do things. So once the next patch comes TU needs to be viewed in the same light as TOTH, a ongoing WIP and the game will just keep on getting better and better easy surpassing the original design.

One last thing alot of things we've done have been to improve systems that where working OK at the time at the same tiome as fixing anyy erros as they show up. Thankfully errors are extremely rare and usually only appear when the first test exe is sent..and then veyr quickly fixed after words for the next test exe.



< Message edited by wodin -- 12/17/2016 12:53:12 PM >

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RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/17/2016 12:48:24 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		Wodin, thanks for your input, helpful. And while I appreciate he doesn't like forums, it is not like the TU one is very active, and it would probably take about 15 minutes a month to pop in, read the latest posts, say a few words, and get back to the game. To me, that would make a huge difference, rather than this Wizard-of-Oz persona he has adopted.

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Post #: 4
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/17/2016 12:54:17 PM   
operating


Posts: 3158
Joined: 1/19/2013
Status: offline 		Read your article, I'd give credit where credit is due and certainly believe it is due here...

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Post #: 5
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/17/2016 12:54:37 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		I've passed on the message:)

I will say this after reading my article he said soon people will be sick of me talking....

operating..thankyou. It is disheartening reading peoples views even though they are fully justified. So it's always a big boost when we get abit of praise. I do know recent test patches have been well received by some who also had bad feelings about the game.

< Message edited by wodin -- 12/17/2016 12:57:58 PM >

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Post #: 6
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/17/2016 7:02:53 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		If you tell us when the next patch is released (I stopped following that forum years ago), I will try to scrounge up my copy of the game and give it a try. God knows we could use more good tactical games.

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Post #: 7
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/17/2016 7:14:55 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		i'm always around for testing if needed wodin for this or any game anywhere tbh, i'm not doing that much atm so if needed, i can always fit another one in and find the spare hours through the week if needed or wanted

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Post #: 8
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/17/2016 7:25:15 PM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		Tactical is my scale and I've followed the game for awhile. If it ever gets to a happy place ill buy it. What I'd like to see is some youtube lets plays for it, let Hof or Das or that historical wargamer guy do some lets plays. I think to turn things around your going have to show people it ain't broke.

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Post #: 9
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/18/2016 11:20:22 AM   
Agathosdaimon


Posts: 1034
Joined: 7/8/2012
Status: offline 		i am very happy to see Tigers Unleashed getting attention still, it is in good state now as it is and an further improvements a bonus, it is an acquired taste really - a simulation to just quietly consider, to play really over a while, - it has alot of features to it, though it is not too hard to just start playing with, i like it alot and hope for more like it!

i agree with the article that Scott Hamilton has been very happy to communicate on the continued work on TU - i recall a few years back contacting him about a problem i was having with teh AI firing on its own units that were in the same hex, and Scott then addressed this in an update.

< Message edited by Agathosdaimon -- 12/18/2016 11:27:31 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/18/2016 12:01:27 PM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

i am very happy to see Tigers Unleashed getting attention still, it is in good state now as it is and an further improvements a bonus, it is an acquired taste really - a simulation to just quietly consider, to play really over a while, - it has alot of features to it, though it is not too hard to just start playing with, i like it alot and hope for more like it!

i agree with the article that Scott Hamilton has been very happy to communicate on the continued work on TU - i recall a few years back contacting him about a problem i was having with teh AI firing on its own units that were in the same hex, and Scott then addressed this in an update.

How's the documentation that comes with the game, is there a tutorial? The product page doesnt really give much info. How many scenarios or campaigns? Do the scenarios play out differently each time or is the AI scripted. The only reviews i could find are at least 4 years old. Has the turn processing time improved a lot.If the game has improved a bunch, the game needs some pub.

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Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 11
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/19/2016 1:18:13 AM   
Agathosdaimon


Posts: 1034
Joined: 7/8/2012
Status: offline 		Hi Budd!
There are round 36 premade scenarios of varying length and size and the turn processing time has reduced somewhat, but it probably still is a bit lengthy and that could be admittedly irksome - it is interesting once the action starts though, but it could otherwise be something frustrating or boring at other tmes maybe.
There are no campaigns, just the scenarios that take place between september 1939 and november 1942.

I havent played all the scenarios multiple times to see how much the randomisation is, but there was one that i did play a few times, a smaller one, it was one which i was having AI problems with so was playing it a few times amidst the contact with Scott Hamilton - 1941 Monster Tanks scenario - i do recall that the tanks were not in the exact same positions each time, also there are so many variables going with just what you can do with your own side alone, it is possible that perhaps even just the butterfly effect of some small change somewhere could lead to some other bigger change later

something with the sighting in game i would still like to know though - whether when my unit spots an enemy whether they automatically spot me too, and vice versa

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Post #: 12
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/19/2016 2:19:01 AM   
Agathosdaimon


Posts: 1034
Joined: 7/8/2012
Status: offline 		Actually i just now decided to play TU again as i realised i had not played it since the last update and it is running alot faster in its turn process, alot more seemed to be happening in quicker succession, whereas before every little action seemed to be happening only one at a time

also there are some improvements on the graphics and little unit pictures that appear when you click on a unit and that helps also to just let you know what the little symbol means

I would though still like to see an easier way to set unit speeds - if there was at least some buttons on the movement plot window where one could just hit some quck speed pre-sets - ie slow, medium- fast- max etc

also i still am sometimes unsure whether an infantry unit has a vehicle with it, whether i need to manually load them in or if that just happens automatically when i set a movement command. some units will list an opel blitz, while others dont but i can still say move them all at like 70kph




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 13
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/20/2016 11:15:28 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Check your Staff Officer screens..it will say who is a passenger. If your units are unloaded you have to load them yourself..your bets using Manoeuvre groups to give orders (read manual)..makes playing ALOT better)

If you said yes to update to my new symbol set what ever the symbol shows is what the unit is..(unless you are using composite mechanic, which I DON'T recommend)

Things are much better again than what they are with the last released patch..much better..

The scenario designer can now also actually name the units using the proper abbreviations and say the actual historical unit etc etc..a new feature..

< Message edited by wodin -- 12/20/2016 11:17:40 AM >

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RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/20/2016 11:40:37 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		The article has brought some very good news to the TU team. That's because Nick bell an old colleague of Scott's has historical maps made for TU, hundreds of hours of work worth..so these will be in TU hopefully next patch..this is something I've been wanting for TU for ages now..it's great news. Nick bell was working with Scott on Tiger son the Prowl until he had to stop during TU development ..a HUGE loss I think thatw as at the time..one that probably put TU back a long time in development and contributed to the state TU was in on release.

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RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/20/2016 2:57:37 PM   
Agathosdaimon


Posts: 1034
Joined: 7/8/2012
Status: offline 		the next update sounds great! new maps too! i am not sure what you are referring to thought re composite mechanic - i have not done any kind of modding to TU - i just installed it and the updates and i think the last one was the one from teh Dogsofwar site that was a few months back

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Post #: 16
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 12/20/2016 3:45:59 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		You can use composite units where the platoon becomes one unit or non composite where it's divided into rifle, LMG, Smg etc etc..non composite is the way to play and use manoeuvre groups

Reading the manual is a MUST do!

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Post #: 17
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 6/21/2017 1:56:51 PM   
kipanderson

 

Posts: 394
Joined: 8/27/2001
From: U.K.
Status: offline 		Wodin, hi,

what is the latest news on TU?

Is that patch out yet? Have been watching since its release. But the problems lead to holding off, but if not too buggy anymore then maybe time. Scale and scope and engine in principal all great.

Thanks..
All the best,
Kip.


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Post #: 18
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 6/21/2017 4:03:37 PM   
Red2112

 

Posts: 1355
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I red his article (Scott) some time ago, and did some intensive search on the web regarding TU and POA2.5 to see what the real state of both games was on the user side...

To make a long story short...

- Not much feedback on the actual product page, the info is quite old which in turn give´s one the sense of a abandon/vaporware product. Not only at HPS but in general everywhere you look on the web.
- As is the HPS site seems unkeeped, old and not quite up to date, which again make´s one think twice.
- The price is way to expensive for a unfinished product, which again dose not show to much care (hardly no news or updates) and that HPS dosent show support for. (no dedicated forum, and send us a e-mail for support is not quite the norm in some cases).

I was mainly interested in POA2.5 as Iam more into modern gear, but would not have minded TU either. Both showed complexity in hit-points and other areas which I find to my likeing, but since all of the above, add some bug reports and a steep price tag just put me off the whole deal. Mind you I was VERY tempted to pull the trigger on POA2.5, but all of the above had more weight then my Visa card!

I do understand that there is work going on and passionate people behind it, but a recent article (old by now) and a promising patch (also old by now as all of this was known at the start of the year), is not gonna make people change there minds that easy.

Iam sure it will turn out to be a good product one day, but If I would have spent €60 on it and STILL be waiting for a update (4 years later), I would be quite upset with the whole deal right now.

I wish Scott all the luck, and if POA2.5 get´s polished some day then I might think of buying it.

I have supported unfinished games in the past, but it get´s to a point were you want something in return and not light years from when you supported it. Who knows what will happen to you tomorrow...

--

< Message edited by Red2112 -- 6/21/2017 4:41:06 PM >

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RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 6/22/2017 7:47:41 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
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From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red2112
...but If I would have spent €60 on it and STILL be waiting for a update (4 years later), I would be quite upset with the whole deal right now.

Yeah, that kind of sums it up. The only similar experience I've had is with WiF, but with WiF there is a HUGE difference, in that despite the half-baked state of the game upon release, there has been a steady flow of patches and, just as important, posts by the developer about what he's doing, current challenges, etc.

With TU, crickets from the day they took my money...

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Post #: 20
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 6/22/2017 9:08:22 PM   
Mobeer


Posts: 662
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		The HPS product pages look like something from the 90s, maybe one of those orphan sites that has outlived its owners. Point of Attack 2 needs a CD-ROM drive "for installation and gameplay" and is available to buy as a download without CD?

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Post #: 21
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 6/22/2017 10:43:25 PM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		After several months with a Tigers beta, I can say the product runs pretty much as designed. This is with a i7 3.6Ghz, 16 ram and GTX 745 - far from top of the line. The playbacks move very fast, and no crashes.

Unfortunately, the recently released PoA beta is in no where near as good a shape, in my brief playing of it. Crashes and an OOB I find sorely lacking after all this time. I can't even put a Javelin team together and add them to a platoon. Very limited weapons systems compared to Tigers.

So Tigers is the one I'd consider of the two.

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Post #: 22
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 7/22/2017 7:28:49 PM   
Red2112

 

Posts: 1355
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline
Well, took the plunge after seeing a patch was out (May 2017) and bought Point of Attack 2...



Uploading a video now, so hope that helps in some way.

Must say there´s ALOT put into it! So far I like it but just got it yesterday so...

Never played TU but I do think that turns are slow to calculate with PoA2. Iam on a i5 with 4 cores, so what setting do you all have (how many cores) in the prefs?



< Message edited by Red2112 -- 7/22/2017 8:38:31 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 7/22/2017 11:54:03 PM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		I've been playing the TU beta on and off for several months and it seems to be in working condition. Combat resolution is quite fast on a vanilla i7, and I can't recall one crash, which is amazing.

However, based on my experience alone, the latest POA2 patch has not eliminated crashes, so that game is not ready to be purchased, imo. And yes, that is the game I am mostly interested in as well. Also, I found the OOB in POA2 to be pretty pathetic compared to the huge OOB of TU, which you can also create new unit organizations.


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Post #: 24
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 7/23/2017 4:30:23 AM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline 		The positive point of this game is that Mike seems to enjoy it.
Has a publisher?
Can I spend a thousand hours on it without getting tired?
Is it tactical, sub-tactical, or big/great tactical?
What is sure is that a demo could convince me to buy this expensive game and do not tell me please that it is because it is the work of a few.
Because I would say that profit is bigger!

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Post #: 25
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 7/23/2017 11:08:07 AM   
Red2112

 

Posts: 1355
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks Rosseau for your info!

On my end all I have had happen, is a couple of "Exceptions" pop-up on me on my first two gameplays. I did mess with it alot yesterday and even made a video (see below) and no exceptions or crashes at all, so happy with that so far. I did mail Scott to let him know about the exceptions and ask a couple of things too.

So far Iam very impressed with it over all! Had alot of fun last night with a level 5 mission and can even live with the combat report phase being a bit slow, I even like that as it gives you time to think and read what is going on

My only grip is that it´s a bit weak with mission content, only 12. I think more missions would be good, if you take into account that TU has alot more!

As stated befor, I uploaded a video yesterday and hope that gives people a taste of what this is all about. I remember some time ago when I first found out about this game, that I wished there were videos out to show what it was all about, so yeah I hope it helps. The Idea is to put out more videos with some hands on training...

Point of Attack 2

It reminds if of the real boardgames were you have to go through all those tables and calculate this and that! Real nice!

Care,

Red

--

< Message edited by Red2112 -- 7/26/2017 8:54:14 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 7/23/2017 4:22:39 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		I'm afraid as most testing is using TU exe then if there is a prob then it will more than likely show in POA2.5...so please email Scott asap if you find somethin.

I've added hundreds more unti symobols, new sounds (WIP) and will be adding and redoing the terrain symbol set over the next few weeks.

< Message edited by wodin -- 7/23/2017 4:23:56 PM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 7/23/2017 4:56:42 PM   
Red2112

 

Posts: 1355
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'm afraid as most testing is using TU exe then if there is a prob then it will more than likely show in POA2.5...so please email Scott asap if you find somethin.

I've added hundreds more unti symobols, new sounds (WIP) and will be adding and redoing the terrain symbol set over the next few weeks.


Thank you Wodin!

Will do that, Iam using the mail that he gave on your article (TU) on AWNT. Sent him a mail with video too. Is there a mailing list or something where one can keep track of what´s new?

Also, can you please tell me how to get back that little window that pops up when you select a unit? I closed it and now don´t know how to see that again.

Again, thanks Wodin and keep up the good work! If I can be of any help just send me a msg. and will be glad to do so...

Care,

Red

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Post #: 28
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 7/23/2017 5:40:55 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		red2112 we always can do with help

As for being updated well I can tell you that I'd say 75%+ code has been rewritten. So much is and has been done (though many wont believe work has never stopped) to be brutally frank we don't have the time for regular updates. However extra hands would change this I'm sure:)

A minor change in code can be a huge undertaking..example..I once asked Scott if a particular area of spotting could be modiefied...the answer was it wasn't a case of doing a negative number here or there because sighting is based on photons blah blah blah..that's how complex it is.

email me j__rimmer@hotmail.com

< Message edited by wodin -- 7/23/2017 5:45:50 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Article on Tigers Unleashed - 7/23/2017 6:42:49 PM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		As usual, the attraction for me with TU is the editor. Just start a new scenario at "expert" level and you can change everything or zip through the screens if you like. Without the ability to build new scenarios, I would be very disappointed. So for me it is like a test tube game for WW2.

I know Rico has always wanted to change the atmospheric humidity and wind speed and direction in his games, and with TU you can change lots. These conditions of course affect the way the bullets fly. Seriously.

But personally, I think Rico will continue to be most super-productive with Tigers on the Hunt


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