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The Last Stand - 12/31/2016 2:37:50 PM   
Joe D.


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I just read Nathaniel Philbrick's book by the same name and noted the following concerning Custer's subordinates:

That after three successive nights of little or no sleep, exhaustion may have been for Benteen what whiskey was for Reno.

Opinions?

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RE: The Last Stand - 12/31/2016 9:10:26 PM   
sullafelix

 

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Status: offline 		Some Indians said the cavalry and their horses were so tired they were shaking.

I do not put any blame on Custer's subordinates. It seems strange that no one gave any kudos to Benteen and Reno for saving most of their troops. While not many have blamed Custer for losing all of his.

Libby Custer did a total whitewash job on them.

Her husbands desperate need of a victory to make him a political candidate caused the entire debacle.

Custer was used to Indians running and not really fighting back. He expected another Washita.

The Fetterman disaster is just a Little Big Horn on a smaller scale. The reasons for both, except for Custerr's political ambition, are exactly the same, Hubris.

< Message edited by sulla05 -- 12/31/2016 9:13:26 PM >

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 12:35:46 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Some Indians said the cavalry and their horses were so tired they were shaking.

I do not put any blame on Custer's subordinates. It seems strange that no one gave any kudos to Benteen and Reno for saving most of their troops. While not many have blamed Custer for losing all of his.

Libby Custer did a total whitewash job on them.

Her husbands desperate need of a victory to make him a political candidate caused the entire debacle.

Custer was used to Indians running and not really fighting back. He expected another Washita.

The Fetterman disaster is just a Little Big Horn on a smaller scale. The reasons for both, except for Custerr's political ambition, are exactly the same, Hubris.


Fetterman was explicitly ordered not to leave sight of the fort, but Custer's orders were more flexible. In any case, they both hurried to their destruction.

Benteen also thought it was another Washita -- he thought Custer had abandoned both him and Reno just as he thought Custer had abandoned Maj. Elliot.

Libby whitewashed her husband's reputation while Wild Bill's show perpetuated the myth of the Last Stand. But the military court of inquiry neither condemned or exonerated Reno, who was drunk for most of the battle. Other officers were seen drinking as well.

Custer has been depicted as a hero and as an egotistical madman in 1970's "Little Big Man." His reputation seems to be fashionable to the times.

And the story never gets old. There's always a new book about Custer and this battle.



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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 2:10:24 PM   
sullafelix

 

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Status: offline 		I always thought the Crow scouts getting ready to die was one of the most amazing part of the tale. That is if that part is a actually true.

I don't think any of the white men there had any idea that there were 1500 to 1800 warriors nearby.

Drunk or sober it was a miracle that Reno's command wasn't annihilated.
Actually it is a miracle that all three commands weren't destroyed one after the other.

The other part of the battle that will always be remembered is Crazy Horse's immortal words, whatever history decides they were.

The Indians were much like the Zulus, they did not denigrate their foes when they talked about the battle in later years.





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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 2:54:11 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The Indians were much like the Zulus, they did not denigrate their foes when they talked about the battle in later years.


I seem to recall reading this line from an eyewitness account (although web examples of it now have a somewhat different translation):

"And then these cowards threw down their weapons and raised their arms, as if to say 'Sioux, pity us'. But the Sioux had no pity that day. We let our rage guide us, and we killed them all."

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 5:06:26 PM   
sullafelix

 

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Status: offline 		I have read a ton of accounts about the battle, but never saw that one. I just checked on the web and didn't find it.

There were a lot of legends that grew up also. Like Rain-in-the-Face eating Tom Custer's heart.

He threatened to do it when he was alive, but he didn't go through with the procedure.

It goes along with the story of Custer himself being tortured. I believe some Cheyenne women said they jabbed needles in his ear after he was dead.

< Message edited by sulla05 -- 1/1/2017 5:07:03 PM >

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 5:52:33 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The Indians were much like the Zulus, they did not denigrate their foes when they talked about the battle in later years.


I seem to recall reading this line from an eyewitness account (although web examples of it now have a somewhat different translation):

"And then these cowards threw down their weapons and raised their arms, as if to say 'Sioux, pity us'. But the Sioux had no pity that day. We let our rage guide us, and we killed them all."


Although Yellow Nose counted coup with a captured 7th guidon, the other warriors were less forgiving towards helpless soldiers after their women and children's lives were put at risk by Reno's attack on the village. Most warriors were irate about the attack, especially after Sitting Bull told those left in the village -- as most of the other men were out hunting -- to protect their "nest" as would a bird.

Even Moving Robe Woman shot the mortally wounded Isaiah Dorman after the scout pleaded that he would soon be dead anyway.
She replied: "If you didn't want to be killed, why did you leave home to attack us?" or words to that effect.

Dorman's body was later found with his genitals mutilated.


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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 6:06:33 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

I have read a ton of accounts about the battle, but never saw that one. I just checked on the web and didn't find it.


Try this one:

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/six/bighorn.htm

It's the account from Lakota chief Red Horse.

It contains this translation of the phrase I referenced:

"these soldiers became foolish, many throwing away their guns and raising their hands, saying, "Sioux, pity us; take us prisoners." The Sioux did not take a single soldier prisoner, but killed all of them; none were left alive for even a few minutes."

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 6:14:57 PM   
sullafelix

 

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Status: offline 		No offense, but I would not take an Americans translation of Lakota in 1881.

Even at big conferences 'interpreters' couldn't get it right.

Crazy horse himself said that "He would fight until no Nez Perce were left". It was translated as "He would fight until no white men are left".

That mistake or deliberate change led directly to his death.

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 6:17:39 PM   
sullafelix

 

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Status: offline 		There were some accounts of mutilation, but that was after death not the cause.

The Zulus were accused of the same things for slitting open their opponents bellies. They did it to all dead opponents.

Unfortunately we do not have any real written records from the Indians at the time, and the difference in language was there also.

I am sure many Indians spoke English and many Americans spoke some Indian languages, but the nuances etc. were probably missed.

There are as many Indian verbal accounts about what happened that day as there are American.

Even 'Hoka hey" was attributed to Low Dog in 1881. Just like hurrah after whatever Indian said it first it was probably taken up by others.

The other question of mutilation is small animals , birds etc. Scavengers will move in quickly after a battle.

I remember reading about Belgians cutting out sets of teeth out of the dead and not so dead at Waterloo. I guess there was a market for them.

< Message edited by sulla05 -- 1/1/2017 6:27:55 PM >

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 7:51:25 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

No offense, but I would not take an Americans translation of Lakota in 1881.


Apparently it wasn't a translation of Lakota. It was a translation of pictographs and sign language. The guy was an expert in it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrick_Mallery

And his record of it may have been subjected to further modern analysis - perhaps accounting for the differing translations.

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 9:52:19 PM   
Hotschi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The other part of the battle that will always be remembered is Crazy Horse's immortal words, whatever history decides they were.



What were Crazy Horse's immortal words about this battle? I'm curious, as this is a part of history I am indeed interested in - I just don't know which book is a good one for "Starters"...

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 10:13:12 PM   
sullafelix

 

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Status: offline 		They were supposedly "Today is a good day to die, brave hearts to the front cowards to the rear".

I think "Hoka Hey" is supposed to be "today is a good day to die".

It has been a while since I read a whole book about the period. There are numerous bios of Custer and a few of Crazy Horse. I believe there is even a duel bios of both in one book. It is 'Crazy Horse and Custer' by Stephen Ambrose. I read it when it came out, but that was about 15 years ago.

I first read about Crazy Horse when I was a very little kid. The past fifty years has seen a large change in the depiction and way that American Indians are looked at and remembered.



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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 10:17:07 PM   
radic202


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

No offense, but I would not take an Americans translation of Lakota in 1881.

Even at big conferences 'interpreters' couldn't get it right.

Crazy horse himself said that "He would fight until no Nez Perce were left". It was translated as "He would fight until no white men are left".

That mistake or deliberate change led directly to his death.


I'm curious here (as a French Canadian) "Nez Percé" in French means "Pierced Nose", how does that translate meaning White Man? I know that "langue forchue" meaning "crooked tongue" is often related to the ""white man" for all the lies they were said to say but never heard the comparison to the pierced nose before?

Thanks in advance,

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/1/2017 11:04:30 PM   
sullafelix

 

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Status: offline 		After Crazy Horse was on the reservation. The US army approached the Lakota to help them against the Nez Perce and Chief Joseph.

Crazy Horse was very reluctant, but finally agreed, hence his actual quote.

The army interpreter was either wrong(unlikely) or just wanted to stir up trouble.

The army knew that both Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse had to be dealt with somehow. That is why they were both murdered.

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/2/2017 5:36:50 PM   
Hotschi


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"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"

- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/3/2017 12:14:48 AM   
Blond_Knight


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Status: offline 		Has anyone tried the HPS game Desperate Glory about Custer and the Battle of the 'Greasy Grass', as the Lakota like to call it?
HPS Desperate Glory

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/3/2017 12:28:52 AM   
Grim.Reaper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

Has anyone tried the HPS game Desperate Glory about Custer and the Battle of the 'Greasy Grass', as the Lakota like to call it?
HPS Desperate Glory


Haven't but you can grab a demo at bottom of this page

http://digitalgameworks.com/index.php/desperate-glory/

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/3/2017 3:01:13 PM   
ezzler

 

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Waterloo teeth

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/4/2017 12:32:51 AM   
conger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

Has anyone tried the HPS game Desperate Glory about Custer and the Battle of the 'Greasy Grass', as the Lakota like to call it?
HPS Desperate Glory


I have the game and it is fun despite its issues. The good: easy to pick up and play, small AO and unit count (may or may not be good depending on your preferences), and variables to battle setup (Custer brings along 2nd CAV, Custer doesn't divide command, number of Sioux, etc.). The bad: the biggest issue with the game is the Sioux AI. It is rather easy to win as the 7th, just have Reno's battalion press the attack and get Custer's battalion across the Medicine Tail Coulee and attacking settlements ASAP. The Sioux forces will eventually retreat and you'll win. The Sioux AI breaks far too easily, if it pressed the attack it'd win (I played against all three AI settings: balanced, aggressive, and cautious). The game doesn't include the second day of fighting either. Playing as the Sioux becomes a game of how few warriors you can loose in the process of wiping out the 7th; very easy to loose as Sioux, but that requires changing variables all in Custer's favor and lowering your own numbers, 500 is the smallest and 2000 the largest. Overall, I'd suggest at least trying the demo. I consider myself knowledgeable on the topic and think if you're like me, you'll enjoy it; not a lot of Little Bighorn wargames out there.

< Message edited by c unit -- 1/4/2017 12:39:05 AM >

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/4/2017 4:47:28 PM   
altipueri

 

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Status: offline 		George MacDonald Fraser places his fictional anti-hero, Flashman at the battle in the book Flashman and the Redskins. Flashman survives the battle thanks to an Oglala Indian girl (Walking Blanket Woman) who takes pity on him in her eagerness to join the main battle, and to his illegitimate son, Frank Standing Bear, who had grown up among the Sioux.

Flashman elsewhere comments that the Battle of the Little Big Horn is more proof that any sane person should run the other way from any military action where the Irish tune Garryowen is played beforehand. The drinking song was also popular among British soldiers at the Charge of the Light Brigade, which he also survived, barely.

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/5/2017 12:59:26 AM   
Blond_Knight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: c unit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

Has anyone tried the HPS game Desperate Glory about Custer and the Battle of the 'Greasy Grass', as the Lakota like to call it?
HPS Desperate Glory


I have the game and it is fun despite its issues. The good: easy to pick up and play, small AO and unit count (may or may not be good depending on your preferences), and variables to battle setup (Custer brings along 2nd CAV, Custer doesn't divide command, number of Sioux, etc.). The bad: the biggest issue with the game is the Sioux AI. It is rather easy to win as the 7th, just have Reno's battalion press the attack and get Custer's battalion across the Medicine Tail Coulee and attacking settlements ASAP. The Sioux forces will eventually retreat and you'll win. The Sioux AI breaks far too easily, if it pressed the attack it'd win (I played against all three AI settings: balanced, aggressive, and cautious). The game doesn't include the second day of fighting either. Playing as the Sioux becomes a game of how few warriors you can loose in the process of wiping out the 7th; very easy to loose as Sioux, but that requires changing variables all in Custer's favor and lowering your own numbers, 500 is the smallest and 2000 the largest. Overall, I'd suggest at least trying the demo. I consider myself knowledgeable on the topic and think if you're like me, you'll enjoy it; not a lot of Little Bighorn wargames out there.


That's some good info. Thanks I'll check it out.

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/5/2017 5:21:02 AM   
Ranger33

 

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Status: offline 		Wow, you guys are very knowledgeable about this battle. Interesting stuff!

I had the opportunity to see the actual battlefield a few years ago, and it was well worth spending an afternoon there. When you look at where the US forces approached from, and where the camp was, it's easy to see how they could not have known what they were up against until the last moment. You can tour the entire area and see the markers showing where each body was found. Pretty sobering to see three or four in a low spot and just imagine them living out their final moments there. It's also interesting how the other companies weren't that far from Custer, but they couldn't see each other due to the terrain. The whole thing highlights how critical battlefield communication is, and how combat of that century could be such a mess when different units were out of sight from each other.

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/8/2017 2:19:11 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Status: offline 		Today being Elvis's birthday, I'm reminded of the contrast between his ignominious death (straining on the pot triggered a heart attack) and Custer's glorious one (died with his boots on in an immortal last stand).

Regardless of how Custer's tactical decisions are judged by history, on the spectrum of deaths, the range has to be from Elvis (at the bottom) to Custer very near the top (with perhaps only the defenders of the Alamo and Thermopylae topping him).

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/8/2017 2:22:19 PM   
Hexagon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Today being Elvis's birthday, I'm reminded of the contrast between his ignominious death (straining on the pot triggered a heart attack) and Custer's glorious one (died with his boots on in an immortal last stand).

Regardless of how Custer's tactical decisions are judged by history, on the spectrum of deaths, the range has to be from Elvis (at the bottom) to Custer very near the top (with perhaps only the defenders of the Alamo and Thermopylae topping him).


At least Elvis dont suicide with men that were under their command... Custers death for me was more shameless in the moment cost the life of his men i think they prefer Custer died on his pot and they have in command a more competent commander that think first on their men and not in his glory.

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/8/2017 3:40:41 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

At least Elvis dont suicide with men that were under their command... Custers death for me was more shameless in the moment cost the life of his men i think they prefer Custer died on his pot and they have in command a more competent commander that think first on their men and not in his glory.


The worst kind of historical analysis: Use perfect 20:20 hindsight to "predict" the outcome of a battle. Then castigate the participants for not reaching that conclusion in advance.

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/8/2017 4:20:02 PM   
Hotschi


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Status: offline 		Comparing the deaths of General Custer and Rock-Star Elvis Presley is comparing apples with oranges.

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Post #: 27
RE: The Last Stand - 1/8/2017 4:54:32 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Comparing the deaths of General Custer and Rock-Star Elvis Presley is comparing apples with oranges.


They are exactly the same in that we're all humans and we're all going to die eventually. Our deaths can range from ignominious to glorious.

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RE: The Last Stand - 1/8/2017 7:25:00 PM   
Yogi the Great


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Status: offline 		I've been to Little Big Horn Battlefield as well. I think one of the more interesting things about it is that the Indian Victory actually would lead to their loss and removal. Because of the "fame" of Custer and the information (perhaps much of it false or made up) and resulting public opinion the U.S. government tasked the Military with the final removal and defeat of the tribes in the area. One of those historic ironies of a great victory leading to total defeat. Another factor of the area history and resulting battles of course was past dishonoring of treaties and in no small part affected by the finding of Gold in the area and the rush of the "white men" to get it.


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RE: The Last Stand - 1/9/2017 12:08:16 AM   
Blond_Knight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Comparing the deaths of General Custer and Rock-Star Elvis Presley is comparing apples with oranges.


They are exactly the same in that we're all humans and we're all going to die eventually. Our deaths can range from ignominious to glorious.


Well if you invade someones home you deserve a violent death. Though I wouldnt call that glorious.

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