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Tackling AI Roaming KB - 12/30/2016 5:10:23 AM   
woods

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		How to you guys deal with roaming KB by AI? Use your carriers to escort or just scatter the transport task force? Even old battlewagons in the transport task force may not be enuff.
Post #: 1
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 12/30/2016 6:45:48 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Troop movements are usually aggregated into a large TF or several of them traveling together and then escorted by carriers and SCTFs and ASW TFs. But if you run into the full KB in early game you may have to scatter anyway - the allied CV aircraft (from 2 or 3 CVs) cannot handle six enemy carriers unless they get very lucky.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 2
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 12/30/2016 10:47:48 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		The AI rarely keeps more than three CVs in a TF after December 7th.

However, even three are enough to trash as many as 4-5 American CVs in early and mid 42.
The pilot experience and plane quality differentials are heavily in the Japanese favor.
Not to mention the range advantage. Beware of getting into a situation where it can strike you from 8 hexes while you can't strike back.

Best to scatter.

Tangle with the AIs KB only when you can concentrate 5-6 carriers AND lure it into range of significant LBA.
Pounce on it while its covering an invasion or attacking a land base, stay away from it in the open sea.

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Hans


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RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 12/30/2016 4:31:04 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		From the get-go I set up air search bases at Johnson, Palmyra, Canton, Samoa, Fiji, the New Hebrides and New Caledonia - and then run all my troop convoys well behind that screen (at least until they have to move forward to land the troops at those respective bases). This makes it very hard for the KB to catch those convoys.

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 4
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 12/31/2016 12:38:34 AM   
woods

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks guys for the excellent advice. Playing this game for many years and still learning something every day!

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RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 12/31/2016 1:13:26 AM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		Don't forget those dot bases are your friend. Have AVPs and AVDs stationed around the map so you can use them in a pinch.
Early when bases are plentiful if I have a big reinforcement I like to put some AVD/Ps at a dot base or two and give the eyes of patrol craft longer legs.

When the unloading is complete the choice is to keep them on location or move them back.

Have a great New Years!




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Post #: 6
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 12/31/2016 2:51:46 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Just be aware, once you kill the KB in a stock scenario, the AI can't recover and won't be nearly as effective ...

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Post #: 7
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/1/2017 12:08:28 AM   
diamond dave

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 3/8/2012
From: Arkansas, USA
Status: offline 		But if you don't whittle them down by a few carriers in late 42-early 43 they will give you lots of headaches later. Either they will start sending carriers to your rear area and disrupting the SF-Hawaii shipping lanes or the US-Australia convoys way down south, or they will unite into huge groups and disrupt some of your more critical front operations. So long as they retain experienced pilots in numbers they will give even your Hellcat-equipped Essex carrier battle groups a hard time.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 8
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/1/2017 1:05:30 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		In PBEMs I sank the entire KB (as in all six, my opponents kept them together) four different times by July of '42. I did it three times with four CVs and once with Wasp too. Do not underestimate your aircraft (get the Devastators off and the Buffaloes if possible), your crews, officers and especially not your CVs with their excellent capacity and damage control. You still need luck, especially with the weather.
I've seen Ryujo sink a lot of ships all on her own early on. Move what you can where you can as soon as possible before the KB can return to the Home Islands and rearm. After that prepare to have a large carrier battle before attempting anything like Guadalcanal. Don't use your CVs as escorts for anything. Try to place them, when ready, where the KB will come to you. Stay behind your land based search and beyond his. He's on the offensive, he has to stick his neck out and he will. Be in the right place to chop it off. When you spot the KB close enough to close with it in one day, charge. He should not know you are there or where exactly unless he gets lucky with one of his subs. Begin somewhere between NZ and New Caledonia and then move NW cautiously. He'll come. If the AI divides the CVs up you'll have more of an advantage but less opportunity for a decisive victory. As long as you stay behind your land based search arcs you will have the advantage. In the Spring of '42, in my view, you should be using all your B-17s for search to maximize your chances of spotting him first.
Back to the Devastators, get them off any way you can. If you can replace them with fighters, by all means do. Both sides initially got the proportions wrong on fighters vis-a-vis attack planes. Fifty percent fighters on your carriers is minimum in my view.
Back to the planes. The Wildcat in my view is a very fine fighter for the Spring of '42 and you should have confidence in them, just make sure most of them are flying CAP. If you can't help but have some Buffaloes, send them as escort. The Devastators are practically worthless, put something else on in their place and use them as trainers. The Vindicators are obsolete but they'll much more likely get hits. Dive bombers are the bane of carriers.

(in reply to diamond dave)
Post #: 9
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/1/2017 1:12:01 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		To be more clear, when I brought up Ryujo having a field day sinking ships I meant the risk of exposing troop ships to attack is just too great, and scattering really doesn't do much even against high speed surface TFs. Additionally, your CV force should not be used as escorts for anything. As soon as you can put four together, they have one function and one function only, and that is ambushing Japanese carriers.

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Post #: 10
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/1/2017 2:13:50 PM   
PaxMondo


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Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: diamond dave

...or they will unite into huge groups and disrupt some of your more critical front operations. ...

AI doesn't have that capability. It will rarely created TF's with more than 3 CV's after PH. Nor is it capable of stringing several TF's together. It can put an amphib TF with a cover TF, but that is about it.

Or if it can, I've never seen it, nor do I know how to script it. If I'm wrong, please chime in as to how to script it as I would dearly love to do so for my next mod ...


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Pax

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Post #: 11
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/3/2017 2:00:56 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: diamond dave

...or they will unite into huge groups and disrupt some of your more critical front operations. ...

AI doesn't have that capability. It will rarely created TF's with more than 3 CV's after PH. Nor is it capable of stringing several TF's together. It can put an amphib TF with a cover TF, but that is about it.

Or if it can, I've never seen it, nor do I know how to script it. If I'm wrong, please chime in as to how to script it as I would dearly love to do so for my next mod ...



In Andy's latest AI scripts, I have had 4 carries roaming the Coral Sea in mid '43. It was an unpleasant/pleasant surprise You may want to ask him what he may have done.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 12
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/3/2017 3:03:06 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

In PBEMs I sank the entire KB (as in all six, my opponents kept them together) four different times by July of '42. I did it three times with four CVs and once with Wasp too. Do not underestimate your aircraft (get the Devastators off and the Buffaloes if possible), your crews, officers and especially not your CVs with their excellent capacity and damage control. You still need luck, especially with the weather.
I've seen Ryujo sink a lot of ships all on her own early on. Move what you can where you can as soon as possible before the KB can return to the Home Islands and rearm. After that prepare to have a large carrier battle before attempting anything like Guadalcanal. Don't use your CVs as escorts for anything. Try to place them, when ready, where the KB will come to you. Stay behind your land based search and beyond his. He's on the offensive, he has to stick his neck out and he will. Be in the right place to chop it off. When you spot the KB close enough to close with it in one day, charge. He should not know you are there or where exactly unless he gets lucky with one of his subs. Begin somewhere between NZ and New Caledonia and then move NW cautiously. He'll come. If the AI divides the CVs up you'll have more of an advantage but less opportunity for a decisive victory. As long as you stay behind your land based search arcs you will have the advantage. In the Spring of '42, in my view, you should be using all your B-17s for search to maximize your chances of spotting him first.
Back to the Devastators, get them off any way you can. If you can replace them with fighters, by all means do. Both sides initially got the proportions wrong on fighters vis-a-vis attack planes. Fifty percent fighters on your carriers is minimum in my view.



Disclaimer: In my very limited experience.

We often get asked on this forum if you can recreate the Battle of Midway. I think you can - sort of...

I have decimated the KB. They are done in stock AE verses the AI. They were eliminated by early 1943.

As I reflect back on it I think the common thread is to bait the AI much as outlined above.

In both / various instances:

1) A group of Tankers at Johnson Island anchored and unloading. Close enough to Truk/Rabul for a response but my own 4 carriers hidden behind; AND Land based Air cover (Fighter/ DBs/ Catalinas) in terms of what was on Johnson Island to support my CV task force.

2) In Coral Sea unloading troops/cargo (again Tankers involved) at Shortlands. Close enough to Rabul for a response. My own Carrier TF again unspotted a few hexes back towards Guadalcanal under very strong land based air cover (Fighters/DBs/Catalinas)... and again the same result.

In both instances 3 carriers each.

Latter (43 / 44) the remaining CVE and new carriers the AI built deployed sailed as singletons with escort and were picked off fairly quickly.





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Post #: 13
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/3/2017 11:46:58 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: diamond dave

...or they will unite into huge groups and disrupt some of your more critical front operations. ...

AI doesn't have that capability. It will rarely created TF's with more than 3 CV's after PH. Nor is it capable of stringing several TF's together. It can put an amphib TF with a cover TF, but that is about it.

Or if it can, I've never seen it, nor do I know how to script it. If I'm wrong, please chime in as to how to script it as I would dearly love to do so for my next mod ...



In Andy's latest AI scripts, I have had 4 carries roaming the Coral Sea in mid '43. It was an unpleasant/pleasant surprise You may want to ask him what he may have done.

That means he got the "KB" setting to start working correctly. That will give the IJ 4xCV's ... Junyo's count as CV's ... so not always a good thing. You can't choose which CV's end up in the KB ... and I'm pretty sure that CVL's can count as well ... that I have to test though.

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Pax

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Post #: 14
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/4/2017 3:16:28 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		As I recall, the Junyo's were a part of that 4 carrier group, so you are correct in that

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Post #: 15
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/4/2017 3:27:56 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Sometimes even AI Japan can be nasty. In my game vs. AI Japan "doomstack" of Kido Butai arrived to Suva (that I am using as supply/fuel hub) and sunk 12 TKs... Considering how short Allies are of TKs in 1942, it was nasty. Though not lethal since can use AKs to transport fuel (just lot lower efficiency).

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Post #: 16
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/4/2017 6:52:23 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5


I have decimated the KB. They are done in stock AE verses the AI. They were eliminated by early 1943.




Not picking on you because nowadays almost everyone misuses the word. The etymology couldn't be clearer. "Deci" meaning ten. To decimate means to reduce by 1/10th. Not destroy, wound. Make the other guy back off and lick his wounds. Unfortunately the current usage of the word has much more than "decimated" the meaning of decimate.

In a similar vein the idiom "the lion's share" has also been decimated but in the truest sense of the word. It originally meant ALL, not most. So sad is the loss.

(in reply to Macclan5)
Post #: 17
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/4/2017 7:10:20 PM   
Revthought


Posts: 523
Joined: 1/14/2009
From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

decimate means to reduce by 1/10th. Not destroy, wound. Make the other guy back off and lick his wounds. Unfortunately the current usage of the word has much more than "decimated" the meaning of decimate.

In a similar vein the idiom "the lion's share" has also been decimated but in the truest sense of the word. It originally meant ALL, not most. So sad is the loss.


Only if you speak Latin. Just kidding! It does mean that, but it also means see def three "a : to reduce drastically especially in number <cholera decimated the population> b : to cause great destruction or harm to <firebombs decimated the city> <an industry decimated by recession>" in currently spoken English.

< Message edited by Revthought -- 1/4/2017 7:12:22 PM >

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RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/4/2017 7:19:50 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		That was my point, things were much better in the old days. Now get off my lawn!

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Post #: 19
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/4/2017 10:32:22 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

That was my point, things were much better in the old days. Now get off my lawn!

Out of curiousity, what does taking "the Gorn's share" mean?

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/4/2017 11:30:00 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

That was my point, things were much better in the old days. Now get off my lawn!

Out of curiousity, what does taking "the Gorn's share" mean?


Generally speaking, a lump of coal. That's why I hate HC and all you econazis.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 21
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/5/2017 2:10:10 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
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quote:

a lump of coal








Attachment (1)

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Post #: 22
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/5/2017 12:07:29 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

a lump of coal









What's that dang thing on his belt? Why didn't the Metrons get rid of it? That's cheating, pure and simple.

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Post #: 23
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/5/2017 1:44:42 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
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From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

What's that dang thing on his belt? Why didn't the Metrons get rid of it? That's cheating, pure and simple.


They GAVE it to both of them, so they could talk to one another Sheesh, don't you know your history?!?

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 24
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/5/2017 3:34:55 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5


I have decimated the KB. They are done in stock AE verses the AI. They were eliminated by early 1943.




Not picking on you because nowadays almost everyone misuses the word. The etymology couldn't be clearer. "Deci" meaning ten. To decimate means to reduce by 1/10th. Not destroy, wound. Make the other guy back off and lick his wounds. Unfortunately the current usage of the word has much more than "decimated" the meaning of decimate.

In a similar vein the idiom "the lion's share" has also been decimated but in the truest sense of the word. It originally meant ALL, not most. So sad is the loss.


Actually interesting indeed.

Latin / the ancients were not part of my education an I use those terms in the modern sense.




_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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Post #: 25
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/5/2017 8:35:06 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

What's that dang thing on his belt? Why didn't the Metrons get rid of it? That's cheating, pure and simple.


They GAVE it to both of them, so they could talk to one another Sheesh, don't you know your history?!?


Universal translators. It wasn't necessary, I never learned to speak Gorn, all I had to do was go "Grrrrrrr! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!"

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 26
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/5/2017 8:41:37 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

What's that dang thing on his belt? Why didn't the Metrons get rid of it? That's cheating, pure and simple.


They GAVE it to both of them, so they could talk to one another Sheesh, don't you know your history?!?


Universal translators. It wasn't necessary, I never learned to speak Gorn, all I had to do was go "Grrrrrrr! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!"

OMG - don't tell me you ate the thing and were talking out your ..... (never mind).

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 27
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/6/2017 3:02:02 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

What's that dang thing on his belt? Why didn't the Metrons get rid of it? That's cheating, pure and simple.


They GAVE it to both of them, so they could talk to one another Sheesh, don't you know your history?!?


Universal translators. It wasn't necessary, I never learned to speak Gorn, all I had to do was go "Grrrrrrr! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!"



Wait! You aren't really a Gorn? You're an imposter?

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 28
RE: Tackling AI Roaming KB - 1/6/2017 9:25:16 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

What's that dang thing on his belt? Why didn't the Metrons get rid of it? That's cheating, pure and simple.


They GAVE it to both of them, so they could talk to one another Sheesh, don't you know your history?!?


Universal translators. It wasn't necessary, I never learned to speak Gorn, all I had to do was go "Grrrrrrr! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!"



Wait! You aren't really a Gorn? You're an imposter?

I think he was exiled to Earth as soon as he was born - not ugly enough to be a true gorn! Besides, he kept wanting to breast feed and reptiles don't have the equipment ...

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 29
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