Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible?

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Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/9/2017 10:15:10 AM

Bylandt11

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I read about people rushing units west to beat France and then east again to start an early offensive against the USSR (spring 1941)

But is that really a good idea? In 1 year Germany can have a FAR stronger force to attack (in spring 1942). Doesn't attacking early trigger a lot of events and mechanisms early that also work in the allies' advantage?

Post #: 1

RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/9/2017 12:01:40 PM

sPzAbt653

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Soviets will attack you in 1941 anyway.

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RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/9/2017 12:32:19 PM

OxfordGuy3

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When is the earliest possible date for a clear weather turn in Russia in 1941? You really don't want to be attacking before then, would also not be ideal if the following turn ends up not being clear...

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Post #: 3

RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/9/2017 12:45:23 PM

Boonierat1972

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You can invest in diplomacy to delay their entry but nobody wants to pay 125 MPPs a chit.

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RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/9/2017 2:59:02 PM

Beruldsen

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With any luck you can have clear skies in the first week/turn in April '41. I prefer to attack early with the most ready forces in the north ... followed by Central ... and then South ... delaying the Central and South by at least a turn.

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Post #: 5

RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/9/2017 3:41:03 PM

OxfordGuy3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arne Beruldsen

With any luck you can have clear skies in the first week/turn in April '41. I prefer to attack early with the most ready forces in the north ... followed by Central ... and then South ... delaying the Central and South by at least a turn.

Why delay attacking with Central and South?

(in reply to Beruldsen)

Post #: 6

RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/9/2017 3:43:43 PM

churruca

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In my game I was ready to attack but the USSR attacked me on April '41 (well, in fact they only declared war).
As I have detailed in other post, right now I'm playing Oct '42 with Leningrad in my hands, at the gates of Voroneth and fighting for Moscow for almost eight months.
It seems that the russians are a little bit weak right now, so I think that Moscow should fall by '43 maybe ending the war.

_____________________________

"Recuerdo cuando el Sol no se pon�a en nuestro imperio!"

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RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/9/2017 4:11:46 PM

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I was having all kind of problems with Russia by attacking them in June, so I am going after them in May. I personally feel it is better to have beefed up units than a lot of units early on, but that is just me.

Learned one important thing in attacking Russian troops, move fast and keep your HQ's with your lead elements, and always upgrade the HQ's, expensive but it must be done. Capture every city you can or bypass them if they are well dug in. I learned about supply the hard way, with low supply you might as well do nothing, supply is the key to the game IMO.

Bo

(in reply to Bylandt11)

Post #: 8

RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/9/2017 5:01:03 PM

OxfordGuy3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

I was having all kind of problems with Russia by attacking them in June, so I am going after them in May. I personally feel it is better to have beefed up units than a lot of units early on, but that is just me.

Learned one important thing in attacking Russian troops, move fast and keep your HQ's with your lead elements, and always upgrade the HQ's, expensive but it must be done. Capture every city you can or bypass them if they are well dug in. I learned about supply the hard way, with low supply you might as well do nothing, supply is the key to the game IMO.

Bo

Definitely, BTW is interesting to see how having mutliple HQs in a small area affects supply, makes the Italians much more effective in Egypt if you support them with two HQs quite close together

(in reply to bo)

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RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/13/2017 7:34:13 AM

Yogol

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HQs are very important.

In Russia, each of my forces (north, central & south) have 2 HQs that are only 1 or 2 hexes from each other and one of the HQs is always near a city. This will ensure that one of the HQs give 8 supply and the other : one of the HQs will give 8 supply and the other will give 10 supply.

This gives a better supply than sending one HQ to the front, because that HQ will only give 8 supply (instead of 10). And if it's not near a city, it only gives 5 supply, which pretty much kills your front units.

And to answer the OP...
In my current game, on the highest difficulty level, I attacked Russia as late as possible (in October 1941, I couldn't wait any longer because they were above 90%).

By that time, Germany occupied...
- Poland
- Luxemburg
- Netherlands
- Belgium
- France
- Vichy France
- Swiss (!)
- Sweden (!!)
- Yugoslavia
- Greece
- Algiers
- Tunis

- Bulgaria, Hungary* & Romania joined Axis.
- Spain joined Axis
- Portugal & Gibraltar were taken by the Spanish.
- Malta was taken by the German.

Some German troops were still near Greece and in Sweden when I attacked USSR, they didn't make it back in time to the Russian border.
But I couldn't wait anymore, because the % of USSR goes up FAST in those months, even when you keep only 4 troops "near" Warsau.

But... this is NOT the way to go on the highest difficulty level.
Because if you wait so long, Russia has so many troops (all with +2 experience) that you can not get to Moscow AND Leningrad AND Stalingrad: he has simply too many troops by then that are too strong. That +2 experience really, really hurts.

I did the same on normal difficulty level and that went very well, because without the +2 experience, you can kill up to 10 Russian troops per turn.
But with the +2 experience, every army in a city takes forever to kill :(

* Hungary added after the after originally post, cause I forgot about it. Sorry to all Hungarians!

< Message edited by Yogol -- 1/14/2017 11:35:49 PM >

(in reply to OxfordGuy3)

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RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/13/2017 1:02:53 PM

OxfordGuy3

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This is why I send both Italian HQs to Africa, makes a big difference until Rommel arrives

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Post #: 11

RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/13/2017 1:07:26 PM

OxfordGuy3

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From: Oxford, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol

HQs are very important.

In Russia, each of my forces (north, central & south) have 2 HQs that are only 1 or 2 hexes from each other and one of the HQs is always near a city. This will ensure that one of the HQs give 8 supply and the other : one of the HQs will give 8 supply and the other will give 10 supply.

This gives a better supply than sending one HQ to the front, because that HQ will only give 8 supply (instead of 10). And if it's not near a city, it only gives 5 supply, which pretty much kills your front units.

And to answer the OP...
In my current game, on the highest difficulty level, I attacked Russia as late as possible (in October 1941, I couldn't wait any longer because they were above 90%).

By that time, Germany occupied...
- Poland
- Luxemburg
- Netherlands
- Belgium
- France
- Vichy France
- Swiss (!)
- Sweden (!!)
- Yugoslavia
- Greece
- Algiers
- Tunis

- Bulgaria & Romania joined Axis.
- Spain joined Axis
- Portugal & Gibraltar were taken by the Spanish.
- Malta was taken by the German.

Some German troops were still near Greece and in Sweden when I attacked USSR, they didn't make it back in time to the Russian border.
But I couldn't wait anymore, because the % of USSR goes up FAST in those months, even when you keep only 4 troops "near" Warsau.

But... this is NOT the way to go on the highest difficulty level.
Because if you wait so long, Russia has so many troops (all with +2 experience) that you can not get to Moscow AND Leningrad AND Stalingrad: he has simply too many troops by then that are too strong. That +2 experience really, really hurts.

I did the same on normal difficulty level and that went very well, because without the +2 experience, you can kill up to 10 Russian troops per turn.
But with the +2 experience, every army in a city takes forever to kill :(

Did attacking all those countries (especially. Switzerland) make the USA enter the war much earlier, though? How are you doing in Libya/Egypt?

(in reply to Yogol)

Post #: 12

RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/13/2017 1:08:37 PM

OxfordGuy3

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What about Hungary? Did they join the axis?

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RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/13/2017 2:03:36 PM

CapitaineHaddock

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Take out France in june 1940, transport all your forces to the East and attack the USSR in July 1940. just bare minimum Research in tanks and infantry, sell all other chits and buy as many tanks and mech as possible. By sept. 41 I have all three Soviet Victory Cities and the Red Army is broken (normal difficulty settings).

Now I've started as Allies and follow the opposite strategy With the UK. Sell all excess chits, research bare minimum (armored warfare!), transport army and HQ from Egypt and buy units (tanks, art, corps...) for all it's worth. I'm now in late July 40 and the front seems to be holding for the moment being. Will be interesting to see how it Works out in the end.

It's high time for multiplayer!

(in reply to OxfordGuy3)

Post #: 14

RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/14/2017 7:53:18 AM

johnvmcnichols1973

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Even with normal settings I had a hard time with the normal version of events, i.e Poland, then attack france, then turn against Soviets while holding UK in check and overrunning Africa. Problem was always Soviet tech upgrades. I could never get deep enough into Russia before the odds turned against me. I could usually overrun Africa, but in the end it was too lengthy and the US would start invading in west africa or hit me as early as 43 in France. I tried a different approach:

After France falls, which I did early, I invaded UK. Took an extra year due to weather!! Who knew it rained so much in the channel :) However, Soviets declared war in late 42 and although I was forced to invade then with few units, I managed to hold the line in the east while taking the UK. It is now late 45, I have broken through on the east front and pushing Soviets back. I have all of Africa and am battling through Persia into South USSR. Still waiting on Turkey to join though..:( Interesting as UK moved govt to Canada, so they did not surrender. Couple Ai issues though:

US continues to send large Amphibious formations to UK with no escorts!! I have sunk two large groups of US invasion troops and continue to destroy piecemeal US and UK ships as they approach UK and France. This has given me time to build a huge naval fleet of German, Italian, Spanish and Swedish ships. Had the US, UK and Canadian fleets been smarter, they could have used the tech advantage in naval warfare and blew me out of the water earlier. Paving the way for invasions all along my west frontier. Oh well, multiplayer will erase that issue :)

(in reply to CapitaineHaddock)

Post #: 15

RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/14/2017 11:14:35 PM

Yogol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oxford_guy

Did attacking all those countries (especially. Switzerland) make the USA enter the war much earlier, though? How are you doing in Libya/Egypt?

Yes, the US enter earlier.

But the war isn't won in the west, it's won (or lost) in the east.

Besides... once you have Gibraltar and can move the entire Italian fleet west, you can pretty much keep the USA "out of the war" by patrolling their coasts with your Italian fleet and some elements of the German fleet.
It's certainly no exception for me to have a victory without more than 2-3 US troops crossing the ocean.

The 40 UK troops are another matter: the UK fleet & fighters protects them very, very well.

But the US is no problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: oxford_guy

What about Hungary? Did they join the axis?

Yes, sorry, I forgot that country in the list. They joined too.
And Finland too, after I declared war in the USSR & got close to Leningrad.

< Message edited by Yogol -- 1/14/2017 11:37:48 PM >

(in reply to OxfordGuy3)

Post #: 16

RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/14/2017 11:34:29 PM

Yogol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: johnvmcnichols

Even with normal settings I had a hard time with the normal version of events, i.e Poland, then attack france, then turn against Soviets while holding UK in check and overrunning Africa.
Problem was always Soviet tech upgrades. I could never get deep enough into Russia before the odds turned against me. I could usually overrun Africa, but in the end it was too lengthy and the US would start invading in west africa or hit me as early as 43 in France. I tried a different approach:

What I do to deal with Africa is this...

a/ Even before Italy joins the war, I send several Italian troops to
The army in Tiranna, the army & corpse & HQ in northern Italy, they all go to Tobruk (having 2 HQs make a huge difference) before Italy even joins the war.

The main goal of that Italian force is to kill the pesky UK engineer and to hold it's ground in Mersa against the UK.

b/ I typically send a second German tank, a second German corps and two German armies to Africa too.
Once they arrive, the Italians retreat to Tiranna and go for Yugoslavia & Greece.

This is a heavy commitment. But once you have Cairo and later Gibraltar, you have pretty much secured all of north Africa for the rest of the war, which removes a major problem from your game.

c/ Once you have Cairo, you can move some German units back to Europe.
But keep at least the two tanks, one corps and the HQ in Africa and go to the Middle East: there are A LOT of MPPs to be won: Israel, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Quawait, Persia... it all adds up.
(I never got Turkey to join, so I do not know if all those cities go to 8/10 when you conquer all of Africa and the entire Middle East, but that would give you even more reason to go after the Middle East).

Plus, those few troops will keep a whole lot of Russian troops busy once they reach southern Russia.

This

(in reply to johnvmcnichols1973)

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RE: Attack USSR ASAP? Or as late as possible? - 1/15/2017 4:56:44 PM

Bylandt11

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Joined: 9/19/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol

Because if you wait so long, Russia has so many troops (all with +2 experience) that you can not get to Moscow AND Leningrad AND Stalingrad: he has simply too many troops by then that are too strong. That +2 experience really, really hurts.

I did the same on normal difficulty level and that went very well, because without the +2 experience, you can kill up to 10 Russian troops per turn.
But with the +2 experience, every army in a city takes forever to kill :(

Thanks. Good advice.

(in reply to Yogol)

Post #: 18

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