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Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/12/2017 4:08:33 AM   
ILCK

 

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The AI goes 100% nuts on this. It is 1942 and the Germans have level 5 planes. I don't know how many breakthroughs they must have had or what level of MPP they threw at it.

I consistently see the AI just go insane on this particular technology. Now, let me say, it works. One squadron of these things rules the skies anywhere it goes and given the need to use air power to kill units it effectively bogs down sector with just one of these bastards. Problem is: jets, 1942. The feel is wrong and the incentives to just pour into this one area is overwhelming.
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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/12/2017 12:14:26 PM   
stockwellpete

 

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Would it help to have jet fighters as a separate unit with separate tech investments only available from either later 1943 or 1944?

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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/12/2017 12:36:23 PM   
Ironclad

 

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I seem to recall reading that if Germany had prioritised jet engine research much earlier they could have had their jet fighter available by 1942. If so extreme results for advanced aircraft research may not be so ridiculous. I like the breakthrough opportunity in research but it does seem to happen too frequently so maybe there is a case for limiting breakthroughs to a maximum of one per turn and/or lifting the threshold to say 60% instead of 45% and maybe having an even higher threshold for some of the more critical areas like advanced aircraft.

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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/12/2017 1:50:23 PM   
ILCK

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

I seem to recall reading that if Germany had prioritised jet engine research much earlier they could have had their jet fighter available by 1942. If so extreme results for advanced aircraft research may not be so ridiculous. I like the breakthrough opportunity in research but it does seem to happen too frequently so maybe there is a case for limiting breakthroughs to a maximum of one per turn and/or lifting the threshold to say 60% instead of 45% and maybe having an even higher threshold for some of the more critical areas like advanced aircraft.



This isn't really about this particular game. This is an across the board issue with the AI and the fact that it is getting to level 4 and 5 technology way, way, way too early in every game. I don't see this will any other technology really, it is advanced aircraft. I have never seen tanks 5 only once tanks 4 or any other higher level tek but aircraft 4 and 5 I see them every game.

This is also a "problem" because I have modded the game several times to increase tek costs by ridiculous levels to see if the AI changes the allocations. It almost feels as though the powers are hard coded to research certain items and that shopping priority is fixed. It is one reason i suspect that the Eastern Front collapses as fast as it does...the sheer lack of German units on that front because they will throw gobs and gobs of MPP into technology. And comparatively little into actual units.

I would think that the threshold for breakthroughs could increase as the tek levels rise reflecting the greater complexity needed to make a breakthrough or just the probability gets lowered dramatically.



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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/12/2017 5:05:19 PM   
Patrat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

I seem to recall reading that if Germany had prioritised jet engine research much earlier they could have had their jet fighter available by 1942. If so extreme results for advanced aircraft research may not be so ridiculous. I like the breakthrough opportunity in research but it does seem to happen too frequently so maybe there is a case for limiting breakthroughs to a maximum of one per turn and/or lifting the threshold to say 60% instead of 45% and maybe having an even higher threshold for some of the more critical areas like advanced aircraft.



I agree that it is a possibility that jets could of flown operationally in 42. IIRC the first prototype jet flew in 39.

That being said, it seems to be happening way to often in the games I've played.

Perhaps the easiest solution would be to limit the number of chits that can be placed in advanced aircraft to one chit. This is already the case in tanks and infantry weapons and as someone else has mentioned, you don't see that kind of problem cropping up in those areas of research and it would still allow the chance of breathroughs happening.


< Message edited by Patrat -- 1/12/2017 5:06:34 PM >

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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/12/2017 5:39:41 PM   
ILCK

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

I seem to recall reading that if Germany had prioritised jet engine research much earlier they could have had their jet fighter available by 1942. If so extreme results for advanced aircraft research may not be so ridiculous. I like the breakthrough opportunity in research but it does seem to happen too frequently so maybe there is a case for limiting breakthroughs to a maximum of one per turn and/or lifting the threshold to say 60% instead of 45% and maybe having an even higher threshold for some of the more critical areas like advanced aircraft.



I agree that it is a possibility that jets could of flown operationally in 42. IIRC the first prototype jet flew in 39.

That being said, it seems to be happening way to often in the games I've played.

Perhaps the easiest solution would be to limit the number of chits that can be placed in advanced aircraft to one chit. This is already the case in tanks and infantry weapons and as someone else has mentioned, you don't see that kind of problem cropping up in those areas of research and it would still allow the chance of breathroughs happening.



I went in and edited all the tek to only allow 1 chit other than the "X" Warfare tek that only goes to level 1 in my new game. I will see how that changes things.

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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/12/2017 8:03:24 PM   
mavraamides


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

I seem to recall reading that if Germany had prioritised jet engine research much earlier they could have had their jet fighter available by 1942. If so extreme results for advanced aircraft research may not be so ridiculous. I like the breakthrough opportunity in research but it does seem to happen too frequently so maybe there is a case for limiting breakthroughs to a maximum of one per turn and/or lifting the threshold to say 60% instead of 45% and maybe having an even higher threshold for some of the more critical areas like advanced aircraft.


I was thinking breakthrough could be dependent on date and tech level. So for example if you are at inf level 0 in 1944 a breakthrough would be very likely but if you're at armor level 4 in 1941 it would be virtually impossible.

I've run into a similar problem with German subs. Running into level 4 and even 5's in late '42 while my destroyers are just getting to level 2. It's brutally hard to take one of them out with that kind of tech discrepancy.

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Post #: 7
RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/13/2017 1:41:20 AM   
James Taylor

 

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At first I was with you guys, research did seem a bit fast, no.... real fast. But then after taking a game into 47 against an AI that had level 5 on a lot of things before me, but not tanks, I changed my opinion.

Why? Well you've got that intel, espionage category, that speeds up your advancements and then there's the "catch up" factor. So when I was out classed, I simply backed off, focussed on the counter to match the AI and removed its advantage.

I kind of liked the lethality of the max level research and it went both ways, and ultimately, it seemed fair to me.

Actually, I think there's a game here. Italians were way behind everyone on everything, and then when I invested into their research, man they came alive expotentially. Got any ideas?

One other aspect, just because you got that level doesn't mean you'll have enough MPPs to get your units equipped.

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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/13/2017 3:39:03 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot

I've run into a similar problem with German subs. Running into level 4 and even 5's in late '42 while my destroyers are just getting to level 2. It's brutally hard to take one of them out with that kind of tech discrepancy.


I wonder if this isn't as bad as it might appear though, because a) it requires a significant commitment by Germany to do and b) it forces the Allies to devote serious resources to maintaining their sea lanes.

If it weren't possible, would it be worth Germany's while attempting to win the Battle of the Atlantic?

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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/15/2017 12:03:37 AM   
Yogol

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot

I've run into a similar problem with German subs. Running into level 4 and even 5's in late '42 while my destroyers are just getting to level 2. It's brutally hard to take one of them out with that kind of tech discrepancy.


I wonder if this isn't as bad as it might appear though, because a) it requires a significant commitment by Germany to do and b) it forces the Allies to devote serious resources to maintaining their sea lanes.

If it weren't possible, would it be worth Germany's while attempting to win the Battle of the Atlantic?


No, it wouldn't be worth Germany's while: you NEED those upgraded subs to take out the US fleet.
Without them, it's pretty much impossible (on the highest difficulty level).

(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 10
RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/15/2017 11:55:47 AM   
xwormwood


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The research system could benefit from a dozen new research decision events.
Triggered by chance, or if the other side is two steps ahead of you in the tech race.

Another option would be to make new upgrades expensive, and the follow up upgrades less expensive.
Or to limit new upgrade for a ceratain time. One instantly, the next two one or two turns later, next 5 one or two turns later.

One problem is that a new weapon can't be distributed to all units once it has been developed. In real life you need time to produce that many new weapons.

And now imagine what impact it would have on strategic bombing if strategic bombing runs would have a chance to slow down development, or slow down the hand out of the new weapons.
Bombing Peenemünde to slow down rocket development or production, bombing Kiel or Hamburg or Bremen or Stettin to slow down production time of subs, BB or CAs, etc. etc.
AA installations would suddenly become pretty important.

Imagine the map, now enhanced with tech centres for each and every weapon system (according to the production possiblities). Bomb them, and have at least a chance to hurt your enemies tech advances (research and / or production and / or possible tech upgrades for the onboard units).
Each tech advance in production could offer the player the option to shift one or two key industry points elsewhere on the map, up to lets say 5 hexes. Moving these key points out of range of enemy bombers could be optional, and if chosen, delay production time or income for some time.

Another solution would be to introduce a new tech, and to keep propeller planes and jet plane separate.

Or you could simply add more tech levels for certain techs. Why not offering 10 steps to research (just a number so offer an example).

For all I know the development of new weapons is usually connected to the weapons your enemy owns. If you are have already the better tanks, you usually don't press too hard to develop even better ones. Of course you develop always, but if your gun is already able to knock out all exisiting tanks, you don't research as hard as if your opponent has tanks which you can't knock out unit you're shooting at him from the back.

And finally every now and than something will always wrong. You develop a great new weapon, only to find out that you followed a wrong idea, or that you forgot the most important key part, or you use the weapon system for the wrong purpose. Remember the german tank destroy Ferdinand / Elefant, or Hitlers decision to use the ME262 as a bomber, the strat bomber HE177 as a dive bomber? Think about the early tanks of WW2, the russian T35 tank, the british Valentine tank, soviet anti tank dogs, the US mark XIV torpedo, the german Maus tank, etc. etc.

Those events could be introduced as decision events, or by the introduction of chance events.

< Message edited by Xwormwood -- 1/15/2017 11:59:34 AM >


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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/15/2017 2:25:40 PM   
ILCK

 

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My initial efforts to change this behavior by limited chits to one for all tek is showing promise. The Germans are still ahead of me 3:2 in advanced aircraft in late 42 which means 4 shouldn't finish until sometime in. 43 and 5 in 44 which is a better "fit".

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Post #: 12
RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/15/2017 2:54:00 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

My initial efforts to change this behavior by limited chits to one for all tek is showing promise.

I've been using one for all categories for many games and I think it works well. I also halved the overall investment totals. Categories can reach Level 5 usually not earlier than 1945.

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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/15/2017 3:55:27 PM   
xwormwood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

My initial efforts to change this behavior by limited chits to one for all tek is showing promise.

I've been using one for all categories for many games and I think it works well. I also halved the overall investment totals. Categories can reach Level 5 usually not earlier than 1945.


Not sure if this is a desirable result.

From my point of view it should be possible to push the development ahead. At a price. And I'm not only talking about MPPs. Maybe a "bad weather" effect could hit the units. Rushed development, lacking tactics & shortage of key components could have an effect on the units, the prices or the production times.

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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/15/2017 4:32:06 PM   
ILCK

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xwormwood


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

My initial efforts to change this behavior by limited chits to one for all tek is showing promise.

I've been using one for all categories for many games and I think it works well. I also halved the overall investment totals. Categories can reach Level 5 usually not earlier than 1945.


Not sure if this is a desirable result.

From my point of view it should be possible to push the development ahead. At a price. And I'm not only talking about MPPs. Maybe a "bad weather" effect could hit the units. Rushed development, lacking tactics & shortage of key components could have an effect on the units, the prices or the production times.



I would agree if you didn't have breakthroughs.

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RE: Gotta Slow Advance Aircraft Research - 1/15/2017 4:33:01 PM   
James Taylor

 

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I like those ideas xwood. How about an advancement initiates the possibility of a prototype unit from a DE, to either try out and delay the decision to produce the generic next step or the proto.

There could be a decision delay for say 6 months if you choose the proto to try, or you immediately get the generic next level. This would definitely have an effect on the speed of advancement with a number of different, random prototypes in the mix to think about.

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