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Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 11:36:19 AM

TulliusDetritus

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Sorry if this was already asked but I can't get the search function to work.

Let's suppose x squadron is a "training" unit. Two scenarios:

1) squadron has 0, 1 or 2 planes only
2) squadron has the maximum number of planes

Will the pilots of 1) and 2) increase their skill/s at the same speed?

Thanks in advance

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 11:56:07 AM

btd64

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No. From my own experience, squadrons with fewer planes will not train as fast as squadrons with a full complement. Also, the search function seems to be having problems lately. Happy gaming....GP

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 12:30:30 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Thank you. I forgot this, sorry: "training" units in bases with sufficient aviation support will train faster than units with insufficient aviation support?

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 1:06:27 PM

Canoerebel

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My experience is that aircraft squadrons with no aircraft will not train pilots; I haven't paid enough attention to squadrons with a single aircraft; but I have seen many, many squadrons with two aircraft training at full capacity, or so it seems to me. I could give you a screen shot of about ten two-plane squadrons at one of my bases, and all the pilots are training rapidly (showing orange- or green-tinted increments).

Players have probably sandboxed this or kept careful notes, so you might get more informed opinions. But until someone tells me different, two-plane squadrons seem to train at full capacity.

I don't know about the affect of aviation support. Mainly, that's because training seems to take place at bigger, rear-area, well-staffed bases, at least from '43 onwards.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 1:15:27 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My experience is that aircraft squadrons with no aircraft will not train pilots; I haven't paid enough attention to squadrons with a single aircraft; but I have seen many, many squadrons with two aircraft training at full capacity, or so it seems to me. I could give you a screen shot of about ten two-plane squadrons at one of my bases, and all the pilots are training rapidly (showing orange- or green-tinted increments).

Players have probably sandboxed this or kept careful notes, so you might get more informed opinions. But until someone tells me different, two-plane squadrons seem to train at full capacity.

I don't know about the affect of aviation support. Mainly, that's because training seems to take place at bigger, rear-area, well-staffed bases, at least from '43 onwards.

The ratio of aircraft to pilots is the key thing, I think. If the sqn. with two aircraft only has a complement of five pilots, it can do a pretty good job of training them. But if it is one of the big squadrons with 33 or more pilots, there are not enough flying hours available to train all the pilots more than a few minutes at a time.

When the pilots are all newbies with low levels of training there will be noticeable progress with just the two aircraft but getting to higher levels will take a looooooong time.

Air support has to be sufficient to keep the aircraft flying but I am not sure it has any direct effect on the training progress of pilots. General Support and Motorized Support squads should impact morale/fatigue, and the skill (Leadership? Admin?) of the squadron's leader should affect training.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 1:20:49 PM

Canoerebel

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That makes sense, BBFanboy.

Most of the two-aircraft training squadrons that I looked at have maximum aircraft levels of 18 or 24. Those, at least, seem to do well with two aircraft. Here's one example (this squadron has had two Corsairs since it arrived on map).

Attachment (1)

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 2:21:15 PM

HansBolter

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Nine pilots got skill gains the day before on those 2 planes.

Not too bad actually.

For the Allies, when dealing with severely limited plane pools in '42, I tend to try to add a few planes to the squadrons that enter with only two.

If you can get an 18 plane Marine squad up to 6 planes the training seems to increase considerably over what you get with only two planes.

I shoot for at least 1/3 to 1/2 capacity on planes for training squadrons I don't have the luxury of getting to full capacity.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 1/12/2017 2:22:28 PM >

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 2:48:47 PM

dr.hal

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This is an important question that, in many ways in terms of a response, calls for research, not observation/speculation. I for one have done no research here, but I do often have only two aircraft for a full squadron of green pilots and see steady progression (but not researched, just observation). One would argue that fewer planes means less flight time per pilot and more fatigue per aircraft, which calls for more aircraft in order to sustain an adequate training regiment. That's certainly true in the real world. However, as in many aspects of this game, the real world would be difficult if not impossible to model. I would speculate that the developers might not have put the time and effort into modeling this aspect of reality. I would be interested in getting some feedback along these lines from developers, but know that's unlikely. So I think I'll continue to put a minimum number of aircraft in training squadrons until someone comes up with definitive proof that this approach is actually not as effective as a full complement of aircraft in a training squadron (as would be expected in real life). I mean no disrespect to any of the authors of the above inputs as their observations are just as valid as mine are. But a true test of this question might set the record straight for us all. Hal

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 1/12/2017 2:49:39 PM >

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 2:59:18 PM

Canoerebel

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That's what we're doing. We're tossing around hypotheses, observations and guesswork. That leads to further observations. Eventually, somebody (Alfred or LoBaron, etc.) will show up and offer definitive information. In the meantime, we've probably helped the OP a bit.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 3:28:36 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
In the meantime, we've probably helped the OP a bit.

You did

Just in case, I filled up like crazy the squadrons with planes (I always followed the two-plane doctrine). RHS includes more planes (numbers and models).

As Hal said, either the game simulates this or it's abstracted.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 5:08:06 PM

InfiniteMonkey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Sorry if this was already asked but I can't get the search function to work.

Let's suppose x squadron is a "training" unit. Two scenarios:

1) squadron has 0, 1 or 2 planes only
2) squadron has the maximum number of planes

Will the pilots of 1) and 2) increase their skill/s at the same speed?

Thanks in advance

The short answer is the more planes you have, the faster the group will advance. There are multiple components to training advancement. From my testing, number of planes is one of the more important ones in determining rate of advancement. I'm slowly building a document "How to be a Japanese Fan Boy" that covers a wide range of topics important to Japan. My section on training pilots is something like 10 pages in OneNote right now... One day, I'll share. :)

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 6:22:08 PM

Revthought

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My experience is that aircraft squadrons with no aircraft will not train pilots.

I don't know that this is true. In at least one of my games I have a number aircraft poor (0) Dutch squadrons that have reactivated.

Like you, I assumed no aircraft = no training, but since I had no other use for them, I thought "what the hell" and sent them on training missions and forgot about them. Eventually when I checked I noticed that pilots in those 0 aircraft squadrons had green numbers in the skill I was attempting to train them on, which meant that the pilots had learned something in the last day.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 7:59:29 PM

bush

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Only an observation but I am pretty sure this was covered (no surprise) by Alfred and there is supposedly NO difference in training based upon amount of planes - including 0 - or pilot/plane ratio. I remember when I read this I stopped worrying about it and have trained this way ever since, so I have never taken the time to compare how quickly the training occurs.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 8:32:06 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Only an observation but I am pretty sure this was covered (no surprise) by Alfred and there is supposedly NO difference in training based upon amount of planes - including 0 - or pilot/plane ratio. I remember when I read this I stopped worrying about it and have trained this way ever since, so I have never taken the time to compare how quickly the training occurs.

Alfred is indeed a walking encyclopedia so I guess this definitely answers my question. Many thanks to everyone

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 9:16:46 PM

rustysi

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quote:

Only an observation but I am pretty sure this was covered (no surprise) by Alfred and there is supposedly NO difference in training based upon amount of planes

I had thought otherwise, but this has been my understanding since. No difference that I can see.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 11:07:59 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Only an observation but I am pretty sure this was covered (no surprise) by Alfred and there is supposedly NO difference in training based upon amount of planes - including 0 - or pilot/plane ratio. I remember when I read this I stopped worrying about it and have trained this way ever since, so I have never taken the time to compare how quickly the training occurs.

Alfred is indeed a walking encyclopedia so I guess this definitely answers my question. Many thanks to everyone

I believe Alfred is one of the developers, so he's more than an encyclopedia. I don't know whether he's walking or not.

My experience is you don't need anywhere near a full complement to train efficiently. In reality most training was done sitting at a desk in front of a chalkboard. Always under supply training units with aircraft, and be as clever as you can making sure you have no more than 1/3 the full complement. This of course applies to units that are training only. Training can and should continue in operational units, and much of that will also be desk/chalk type learning. Also know or remember that operational units acquire experience quite rapidly and giving these units 20% training enhances that. Keeps them sharp too.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 11:13:58 PM

dr.hal

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Alfred is many things, but he is not one of the developers. Hal

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 11:24:18 PM

geofflambert

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An addendum. My remark about being clever; it does matter what type of aircraft is assigned to the training unit. For instance, if you are IJN, you can use a unit equipped with Jakes to train fighter pilots. This is not true with some of the other floatplanes. So you might have to be a whole lot cleverer than me to get the aircraft you desire assigned to the unit you wish without actually having some of those aircraft present. Just do your conversions when the supply of loose aircraft of the type you want is limited. Another trick is if you wish, and the unit is allowed to divide, divide it into 3 and have each assigned its own aircraft model and train for separate mission types. By doing this, among other reasons unrelated, you can return the bulk of the original aircraft type to the pools while assigning the thirds whatever obsolete or surplus aircraft are available.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/12/2017 11:26:36 PM

geofflambert

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Alfred seems to have knowledge of the source code so that would make him one of those things he is "many" of.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 1:13:04 AM

InfiniteMonkey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Alfred seems to have knowledge of the source code so that would make him one of those things he is "many" of.

Either Alfred is mistaken, or you all misinterpreted his comments. I have not seen the posting you refer to, so I am not sure which. The information posted here that number of planes does not matter is simply wrong.

Test/results:
I took 10 air groups with equal exp, morale, etc. and sized them all at 15 planes. I named each air group TEST-1 through TEST-10. I put 1 aircraft in the 5 even numbered groups, and 15 aircraft in the 5 odd numbered groups. I then brought each group up to full strength in pilots and ran a turn.

Results:
Test-Odd Groups (15 aircraft): +8, +3, +7, +7, +3
Test-Even Groups (1 aircraft): +0, +1, +1, +1 , +0

The +x number indicates the number of pilots that had in increase in air skill - none in any squadron had increases in DefN or Exp.

As you can see, in NO case did an air group with 1 plane increase the skill of more than one pilot. Also, in EVERY case, the groups with 15 aircraft increased at least 3 pilots.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by InfiniteMonkey -- 1/13/2017 1:28:42 AM >

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 1:24:58 AM

dr.hal

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Interesting, well done; sure looks like research to me!

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 1:33:40 AM

geofflambert

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Thank you for your effort. I would add some considerations. Particular pilots/crews are predestined in the game engine, somehow, to advance quickly and that is not easy to test, nor do I know if this can be changed in the editor. This applies to officers of whatever sort as well. You did not use the same pilots in each test or as part of a control group. Generally those would be minor deviations in any case. With that caveat, I accept your results in whole. I have not advocated having zero aircraft, or one aircraft; I do not have any personal experience with that. I do firmly (until somebody rubs my nose in my fallibility) believe that 1/3 of the allowed complement is more than sufficient for training purposes and would encourage all to proceed confidently with the understanding that that is so.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 1:47:22 AM

InfiniteMonkey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Thank you for your effort. I would add some considerations. Particular pilots/crews are predestined in the game engine, somehow, to advance quickly and that is not easy to test, nor do I know if this can be changed in the editor. This applies to officers of whatever sort as well. You did not use the same pilots in each test or as part of a control group. Generally those would be minor deviations in any case. With that caveat, I accept your results in whole. I have not advocated having zero aircraft, or one aircraft; I do not have any personal experience with that. I do firmly (until somebody rubs my nose in my fallibility) believe that 1/3 of the allowed complement is more than sufficient for training purposes and would encourage all to proceed confidently with the understanding that that is so.

It's not. The relationship is linear with respect to aircraft. Your most critical resource when it comes to training as Japan is air groups. Every one you dedicate to training cannot be used for combat. Maximizing them is more important than saving aircraft. And yes, the officers can make a difference, but I know that and corrected for it (as much as I can) before I ran the test. :) Moreover, the results would likely have been more skewed towards the 1 plane squadrons had I not corrected for it. One leader affects the advancement ALL pilots in the air group.

I've done a lot more testing on this than what you see here. I literally have over 10 pages of notes on research I've done, testing various aspects of the Pilot training issue and reading posts on the forums. See below:

Attachment (1)

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 2:17:10 AM

bush

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That looks like damn fine research in my book. I stand corrected, and will definitely change how I have been training. I feel like I have wasted almost 2 years of the game now. The amount of info in this game is just staggering at times.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 2:30:06 AM

Alfred

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I am not mistaken.

This is a screenshot of VS-7D14 taken on 16 Dec 1942. The unit has only 2 aircraft and is at 100% training.

A check through my USA, Brit and NZ fighter fighter/medium bomber units in 100% training with only 1 or 2 aircraft on 16 Dec 1942 shows the following.

USA - fighter units

1 a/c - 34 pilots - 5 green
2 a/c - 33 pilots - 6 green
1 a/c - 33 pilots - 3 green
2 a/c - 33 pilots - 0 green
1 a/c - 33 pilots - 3 green
2 a/c - 34 pilots - 6 green

USA - medium bomber units

0 a/c - 21 pilots - 0 green (but previous turn it did have green pilots and currently has 11 brown pilots)
2 a/c - 21 pilots - 3 green
1 a/c - 21 pilots - 3 green
1 a/c - 21 pilots - 4 green

Brit - fighter units

2 a/c - 22 pilots - 4 green
2 a/c - 21 pilots - 6 green

Brit - medium bomber units

2 a/c - 16 pilots - 2 green

NZ - fighter units

2 a/c - 16 pilots - 8 green

This is hard data from an actual game, not some vanity test which has not taken into account all the relevant variables.

Alfred

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Alfred -- 1/13/2017 2:33:16 AM >

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 2:49:17 AM

InfiniteMonkey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
This is hard data from an actual game, not some vanity test which has not taken into account all the relevant variables.

And thus is more suspect, not less. Your test is invalid BECAUSE you do not control variables. The question is "What is the effect of the number of aircraft on training?"

To test that, you control the OTHER variables and then vary the number of aircraft:

1) Type of Aircraft
2) Number of pilots
3) location of training (weather affects whether training flights occur)
4) leadership rating of commanders
5) experience levels of pilots
6) morale of pilots
7) etc. etc.

ALL of the above are controlled for in my test. I am testing the game engine, not some random sampling of groups. And by the way, your percentage of pilots of pilots receiving skill increases vs mine:

For bombers 23/200 = 0.115 = 0.115 11.5%
For medium bombers: 10/84 = 0.119 = 11.9%
My 15 plane squadrons: 28/100 = 0.28 = 0.28 28%

Vanity exercise? Grow up and show some scientific method. Do not try to hurl insults at someone that has the audacity to challenge the views of the almighty Alfred. Refute my facts and avoid the personal attacks, k?

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 3:45:20 AM

rustysi

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The one thing I will say from what I can see is that it is no wonder your #4 test group only got one pilot advanced one point in air skill. The unit commander is 'poor' to say the least. I wouldn't let him train my dog.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 4:00:51 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Alfred seems to have knowledge of the source code so that would make him one of those things he is "many" of.

I believe Alfred wrote the original manual and had to ask a lot of questions about the game engine to frame his information. He also needed to ask the developers what things should not be described in detail to avoid revealing too much of the code. He referenced meetings with developers several times, but he was not a developer per se.

He has a rigour of thought akin to a University Prof or Scientist - one that expects students to put in honest efforts and gives them their come-uppance when they do not. I have been guilty of lack of research too often and got my ears boxed accordingly. I'm thinking of having them bronzed!

EDIT: wrote this before I saw Alfred had joined the thread. I will concede the floor to him rather than speculate further on how he came to be so knowledgeable about the game.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 1/13/2017 4:10:00 AM >

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 5:37:43 AM

InfiniteMonkey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

The one thing I will say from what I can see is that it is no wonder your #4 test group only got one pilot advanced one point in air skill. The unit commander is 'poor' to say the least. I wouldn't let him train my dog.

Per http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2350193 the leader's Leadership skill influences experience gain. Most of the leaders in the original test had Leadership in the high 30's, a few were in the low 40's and both groups had roughly equal leaders. I did not get 10 identical leaders, but I tried to get ones close in Leadership skill and other stats. I wanted lowish leader skill so that I could try to look at effects of plane numbers only. In other words, crappy leadership affected both groups roughly equally.

According to the Pilot Management Addendum (pdf in your /manuals directory), Leader skill kicks in on skill gain:

"- if the pilot�s experience is less 50 (plus pilot�s missions and kills) and less than the leader�s skill "

It is not stated if the leader's contribution to experience gain is affected by the amount by which Leadership exceeds the skill. Therefore I wanted leaders which exceeded the average exp of the pilots training, but not by much in case the effect was magnified for leaders with big advantages in skill. The actual results did not correlate much between the Leader's Leadership and the number of skill advances, but the number of trials was limited. Higher skill leaders had pilots both exceed and fall short of the average.

What is clear from the tests is that there is a strong relationship between number of planes and advances.

Initial test: all leaders in high 30's/low 40's:
1 plane groups got 3 advances in 100 trials: 3%
15 plane groups got 28 advances in 100 trials: 28%
Pilots in the 15 plane groups advanced skill 9.33 to 1 times more often than those in 1 plane groups.

I've run the test 5 times tonight and got similar results each time. In no case did a 1 plane group ever get more than one skill increase. In ALL cases, the 15 plan groups got AT LEAST 3 (max 9).

Most recent test (re-selected all leaders in 42-44 range for Leadership):
15 plane groups: +6, 3, 5, 4, 5 = +23 (23% of pilots got a skill increase)
1 plane groups: +1, 1, 1, 0, 0 = +3 (3% of pilots got a skill increase)

The 15 plane groups skill rate actually declined slightly with higher leadership leaders from the initial trial, but pilots in the 15 plane groups still advance 7.67 to 1 times more often than those in 1 plane groups.

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RE: Training squadrons with 0 or 1 plane - 1/13/2017 5:40:58 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
This is hard data from an actual game, not some vanity test which has not taken into account all the relevant variables.

And thus is more suspect, not less. Your test is invalid BECAUSE you do not control variables. The question is "What is the effect of the number of aircraft on training?"

To test that, you control the OTHER variables and then vary the number of aircraft:

1) Type of Aircraft
2) Number of pilots
3) location of training (weather affects whether training flights occur)
4) leadership rating of commanders
5) experience levels of pilots
6) morale of pilots
7) etc. etc.

ALL of the above are controlled for in my test. I am testing the game engine, not some random sampling of groups. And by the way, your percentage of pilots of pilots receiving skill increases vs mine:

For bombers 23/200 = 0.115 = 0.115 11.5%
For medium bombers: 10/84 = 0.119 = 11.9%
My 15 plane squadrons: 28/100 = 0.28 = 0.28 28%

Vanity exercise? Grow up and show some scientific method. Do not try to hurl insults at someone that has the audacity to challenge the views of the almighty Alfred. Refute my facts and avoid the personal attacks, k?

What rubbish you write about what I posted and then as a free kick insults are thrown in. Typical of someone with the ego of a small planet who simply cannot accept his tests are fundamentally flawed.

1. You cannot properly control because you do not know nor properly understand the variables.

2. You have done no such thing as a valid "scientific test". To do so requires only a single variable input to be tested. Over many iterations. And the entire set of test conditions are fully published so that any one else can replicate exactly the same test. You have not done any of this so don't insult me or any other reader with your self perceived "superior" scientific test.

3. Because your ego is so huge and the need to invalidate me is consuming you misrepresent my post. I presented the results of the game engine. Those results completely and utterly contradict your claims. Which I remind you is the claim that air units with fewer aircraft will train fewer pilots than fully TOE equipped air units.

4. Anyone with a scintilla of understanding knows that in a contest between game engine results and a mickey mouse test bed, the game engine results always trump what the mickey mouse test bed throws up.

5. A good tester, when confronted with what the diametrically opposed outcomes, would go back to his mickey mouse test bed and try to see where they failed.

The simple fact of life is that you are one of the numerous reverse engineers who frequent the forum who is incapable of accepting the truth when it is uttered by a dev or by someone with a better mind than yourself. This then makes you envious.

Practical players play the game as it is. They are not in a position to play the game in a vacuum divorced from all the externalities that exist in every single situation. I showed what the game engine does. If there was any validity to your mickey mouse test bed which you employed to purportedly show what the game engine does, there would not be such a discrepancy in outcomes.

There is no fact for me to further disprove because you have not produced a single fact about how this game engine operates. I show game reality, you show your make believe world.

I will repeat it again. Players do not need aircraft inside air units in order to generate pilot training. Air units with 1 or 2 aircraft in them can advance more pilots than air units with 100% TOE. Just as some air units with 100% TOE can also advance more pilots than other air units with a very low TOE%.

Show me a single dev comment that shows I am wrong and you are correct. You will not find one; not in the manual, not in the pilot addendum, not in the patch notes, not in any post in any thread in the forum. So on what basis can you sustain your superiority.

Constantly my comments get challenged by "reverse engineers" but they always fail, although they never apologise. In one particular 2014 (IIRC) thread after several pages of vehement antagonism against me Symon, in one of his last posts pointed out that I was completely correct. The very next post in that thread came from Symon who wryly noted how quickly silence descended when a dev spoke.

Just like the Greek Gods have left Mt Olympus, so have the devs left AE. I am as close as AE players can get to the knowledge of the devs precisely because I closely research what they have posted, and have often provided their source comments for independent verification. You provide ... give me a moment I'll think of something ... really there must be something you do ...

Alfred

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 30