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Pilot Training - 1/13/2017 2:00:19 PM   
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Revthought
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Posts: 523
Joined: 1/14/2009
From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
Status: offline 		Though I have been playing this game for awhile, I've been trying to determine as best I can, without running actual tests outside of any of the PBEMs I've been playing, I've been trying to determine some about training. It was only yesterday that it occurred to me--the forums might know best!

So here is my list of ponderings:

1. Does mission range effect the speed at which pilots train? When I first started playing, I kept training ranges at 0 to cut down on fatigue; however, I began to suspect that in doing this I also lessened the efficacy of pilot training. I've been playing around with different ranges for training groups, but have yet to come to any firm conclusions.

2. Does "ground attack" type actually effect anything? Training bomber pilots to ground attack, port attack, or airfield attack has the same visible effect in that they all increase the ground attack skill. I wonder, because I do not know, if there is a behind the scenes effect depending on the mission type.

3. Similar to the second question, is there any value to training "night" pilots? Training during the day or night has the same visible effect in that it increases whatever skill is being trained. When I first started playing I did specifically train pilots for night missions; however, since there is only one "phase" of night air missions, I found this to be less effective (as far as visible skill increase goes) than training all pilots during the day.

4. Is it better to concentrate solely on training mission skills for fighter pilots, or should I mix in some cap to my training missions? Currently I train as follows:

Dedicated: Air skill trainer, strafe trainer, cap trainer.

I train the pilots in either air or strafe squadrons once they hit 70 in the skill I flip squadrons until I have pilots around 70 air, 70 strafe, 70 defense. I then plop them into the cap squadrons and run cap missions until their overall experience is somewhere between 65 and 70 (depends on how badly I need pilot replacements).

That said, it occurs to me that there is duplication of effort because just flying cap also raises overall air skill.

In any case, I thought I would borrow on your collective wisdom since I'm fairly certain 85% of you are fonts of WITPAE knowledge.

_____________________________

Playing at war is a far better vocation than making people fight in them.
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RE: Pilot Training - 1/13/2017 2:52:46 PM   
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Nomad
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Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		AFASIK,

1. no
2. no
3. no
4. training 100%

You training seems fine.

(in reply to Revthought)
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RE: Pilot Training - 1/13/2017 2:59:18 PM   
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GetAssista
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Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		4. Since CAP trains xp, and xp slows down skill training, CAP should be the last step. You can look on its air skill effect as a bonus, or train a bit less air before that

(in reply to Nomad)
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RE: Pilot Training - 1/13/2017 3:47:41 PM   
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wneumann
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quote:


2. Does "ground attack" type actually effect anything? Training bomber pilots to ground attack, port attack, or airfield attack has the same visible effect in that they all increase the ground attack skill. I wonder, because I do not know, if there is a behind the scenes effect depending on the mission type.

Ground attack training will prepare bomber pilots for attack on all "land" targets - airfields. ports, city (strategic bombing), LCU's. I also train ground attack pilots on low level ground attack (LowG) skill as much as possible to where pilots have 70 skill level in both GrdB and LowG skills. The seoond level of training provides some bump in pilot experience and defensive skills. It also creates bomber pilots that can be most effectively employed against any type of ground target at any given altitude.

I also employ a similar technique on training pilots for bombing (not torpedo) naval targets. These pilots trained to 70 skill levels in both naval bombing (NavB) and low-level naval bombing (LowN) plus naval search. The two latter skills are important for training pilots to be used in 2E attack bomber "skip bombing" missions against ship targets. Torpedo bomber pilots handled differently, 70 skill levels in torpedo bombing (NavT) and naval search.

While this method does generate highly specialized pilots for any particular type of bombing attack, it allows for little if any cross-training. What this training method usually produces is front-line bomber squadrons that are specialized in attacking specific target type(s). Both an asset and a liability.

quote:


3. Similar to the second question, is there any value to training "night" pilots? Training during the day or night has the same visible effect in that it increases whatever skill is being trained. When I first started playing I did specifically train pilots for night missions; however, since there is only one "phase" of night air missions, I found this to be less effective (as far as visible skill increase goes) than training all pilots during the day.

Fully trained fighter pilots are usable in both "day" and night fighter units drawing from a common pool of trained pilots. If using night fighter air units for pilot training, set them to train in Strafing skill (they seem to work more effectively in this mode).

quote:


4. Is it better to concentrate solely on training mission skills for fighter pilots, or should I mix in some cap to my training missions? Currently I train as follows:

Dedicated: Air skill trainer, strafe trainer, cap trainer.

I train the pilots in either air or strafe squadrons once they hit 70 in the skill I flip squadrons until I have pilots around 70 air, 70 strafe, 70 defense. I then plop them into the cap squadrons and run cap missions until their overall experience is somewhere between 65 and 70 (depends on how badly I need pilot replacements).

That said, it occurs to me that there is duplication of effort because just flying cap also raises overall air skill.

I use the same (3-stage) training process for fighter pilots (Air, Strafe, CAP). Dedicated training squadrons for each skill the way to go, rotating pilots between squsdrons (via the Reserve pilot pool) as they complete training in each skill. Sequence of skills is not critical though I train CAP only for pilots that have completed training for both Air and Strafe skills (this strictly for organization purposes).

Note the use of dedicated training squadrons is also true for bomber pilots. Two things should be taken into account when using dedicated training squadrons: (1) you'll need a lot of air units for training and (2) when training pilots in two or more skills, make sure you have air units set to train pilots in each skill and that the number of training squadrons for each skill is balanced to prevent bottlenecks.


< Message edited by wneumann -- 1/13/2017 3:49:32 PM >

(in reply to GetAssista)
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RE: Pilot Training - 1/13/2017 9:30:16 PM   
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rustysi
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quote:

1. Does mission range effect the speed at which pilots train? When I first started playing, I kept training ranges at 0 to cut down on fatigue; however, I began to suspect that in doing this I also lessened the efficacy of pilot training.


AFAIK training at range zero is fine. I've noticed no increase in training rates the times I forget to set range to zero. I do however notice the fatigue rate rises.

_____________________________

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to wneumann)
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RE: Pilot Training - 1/13/2017 10:37:25 PM   
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JohnDillworth
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Status: offline 		I have had more luck with squadron leaders with a high inspiration rating. I generally set training at a range of 1 and set fighter pilots to sweep. fo bombers it doesn't seem to matter, airfield, ground, port. Navy DB, TB set to naval attack

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(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 6
RE: Pilot Training - 1/14/2017 3:30:55 AM   
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InfiniteMonkey
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Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought
4. Is it better to concentrate solely on training mission skills for fighter pilots, or should I mix in some cap to my training missions? Currently I train as follows:

Dedicated: Air skill trainer, strafe trainer, cap trainer.

I train the pilots in either air or strafe squadrons once they hit 70 in the skill I flip squadrons until I have pilots around 70 air, 70 strafe, 70 defense. I then plop them into the cap squadrons and run cap missions until their overall experience is somewhere between 65 and 70 (depends on how badly I need pilot replacements).

That said, it occurs to me that there is duplication of effort because just flying cap also raises overall air skill.

In any case, I thought I would borrow on your collective wisdom since I'm fairly certain 85% of you are fonts of WITPAE knowledge.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pilot Management Addendum.pdf

"Groups can fly normal Training missions (with a training percent) which occur in the AM and PM air phases. These gain both skill and experience points.

Groups will also gain skill and experience (after passing a training check against the training percent of the group) at the end of each day:

1. if the pilot’s experience is less 50 (plus pilot’s missions and kills) and less than the overall group experience level

2. if the pilot’s experience is less 50 (plus pilot’s missions and kills) and less than the leader’s skill

3. if pilot is in a dedicated Training group with some Instructors (adds higher increments to accumulators)

4. if pilot is in a dedicated Training group without Instructors (higher success and slightly higher increments than a normal group)

5. if pilot is in a group with some training percent (number of veteran pilots (experience of 80+) increases chance of successful training)


So, flying gets you some exp and skill. You get some additional skill and exp for each of the additional cases specified. 3 & 4 do not apply since training groups were removed from scenario 1.

The wording on that section is not really clear, but I think this is what it means:

In case 1 & 2, each pilot gets the bonus if their experience/skill is less than 50 plus the pilot's mission and kill counts AND the pilot's experience is less than the average group experience/leader's appropriate skill (which is supposed to be Leadership). You may have seen posts in which some players talk about hitting a wall in experience gain around 50 experience. I think this is why: training missions do not accrue mission counts, so before they reach 50 exp you want to assign them orders that gets their mission count up. Some players swear by assigning their air groups to CAP: 20 as a way to increase experience gain. I am inclined to believe this is why they see more exp gain. I don't think the particulars are important - just get your mission count up before an individual pilot gets to 50 exp.

Specifically for case 1, I do something I call "Stratifying" my pilots. I throw every pilot in my replacement pool into the reserve pools, then draw them by experience for training groups. By doing that, all my pilots are within 1-2 points of experience of each other and I can assign a few high skill pilots to the training group to up the average to kick in bonus #1. If I did not stratify, I'd get pilots ranging from about 25 to 44 (at the extremes) in every squadron and half my trainee pilots would not get bonus #1 (the half that ruin the curve).

Finally, you have the option of putting 81 and up exp pilots in training squadrons to get bonus $5. You could also put them in TRACOM or keeping them in your active squadrons. I send them to TRACOM, but I have not tested the effect of 81 skill pilots on training so I'm not sure if it is a big deal or not.

Probably more than you wanted, but the above is my reasoning for the answer to your question: I would raise the mission count of all pilots to 20-25 as they approach 50 experience to maximize rate of exp/skill gain as defined in the addendum. I do it with NAV search range 0 (Adds 2 missions per day per plane). Have not tried CAP, so do not know how effective that is.





< Message edited by InfiniteMonkey -- 1/14/2017 3:37:21 AM >

(in reply to Revthought)
Post #: 7
RE: Pilot Training - 1/14/2017 5:25:11 AM   
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geofflambert
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Posts: 14863
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Status: offline 		Always set mission range to zero if training is all that is done.
Ground attack at or below 1k, and at 100m (strafing) build defensive experience, which is a good thing to build. However, there is a considerable amount of opinion out there that actual ground attack and most particularly strafing is expensive to say the least with little positive result to show for it. Train for it anyway.
Night missions are quite nigh worthless unless you're Allied and beginning strategic air strikes, and even then there are caveats.
Don't go overboard on that strafe thing. It's generally a good way to get your precious pilots killed in operations, though for training purposes I would recommend it.
Actual operations increase experience, whatever the mission is. That is an important thing to understand, deploying units will necessarily increase experience and to some extent train your aircrews better than behind the lines training. For instance, you can readily train to experience 60 behind the lines but front line operations get you to 70 much more rapidly.
As far as being fonts of WITPAE knowledge, some of us are pica, and others elite. I of course consider myself to be elite.

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
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RE: Pilot Training - 1/14/2017 2:52:45 PM   
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crsutton
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Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		In the end experience matters the most. My top ace pilots are the ones with 80 or higher experience. So, I would rather have an 75 experience pilot with a 60 air skill than the reverse. However, you get a lot of good experienced named pilots that come into your (Allied) air groups directly as replacements- with experience levels between 55-65 but with only average to low skills in any specific category. It is important to cull them out and train them up. These will ultimately be your best pilots rather than the replacement pilots that you train up to 50 experience and 70 skill. This is my practice for fighter pilots anyways.



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(in reply to geofflambert)
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RE: Pilot Training - 1/14/2017 4:13:40 PM   
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Revthought
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Posts: 523
Joined: 1/14/2009
From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Always set mission range to zero if training is all that is done.
Ground attack at or below 1k, and at 100m (strafing) build defensive experience, which is a good thing to build. However, there is a considerable amount of opinion out there that actual ground attack and most particularly strafing is expensive to say the least with little positive result to show for it. Train for it anyway.
Night missions are quite nigh worthless unless you're Allied and beginning strategic air strikes, and even then there are caveats.
Don't go overboard on that strafe thing. It's generally a good way to get your precious pilots killed in operations, though for training purposes I would recommend it.
Actual operations increase experience, whatever the mission is. That is an important thing to understand, deploying units will necessarily increase experience and to some extent train your aircrews better than behind the lines training. For instance, you can readily train to experience 60 behind the lines but front line operations get you to 70 much more rapidly.
As far as being fonts of WITPAE knowledge, some of us are pica, and others elite. I of course consider myself to be elite.

quote:

xpensive to say the least with little positive result to show for it. Train for it anywa


I use ground attack from time to time, very rarely low-altitude though. Just from anecdotal experience it does wonders for destroying guns and tanks if you know there are artillery and tanks in the hex. I also just assumed with no evidence that it increases the LCU fatigue and disruption levels.

Strafing on the other hand seems to do nothing but lose me planes, UNLESS we are talking about unarmored ships OR destroyers. In these cases, most of the shells seem to penetrate and do damage to said ships. I am not, however, sure it's really worth it given the vulnerability of the aircraft doing it.

In fact, the only time I do use fighters this way is the really early war as the Allies when my Japanese opponent overreaches a little with fighter and surface cover for some of the tertiary Japanese invasions. And I've yet to "sink" a ship with machine guns.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

Question about training squadron leaders. I typically look for a commander that has high leadership, high inspiration, and high admin. I feel from, again just an anecdotal observation, that high leadership/inspiration means a lot less if the commander also has a terrible admin score. Am I crazy?

I guess part of the problem is the game is less than transparent when it comes to telling the player what each of the leader skills actually effects.

< Message edited by Revthought -- 1/14/2017 4:17:56 PM >

_____________________________

Playing at war is a far better vocation than making people fight in them.

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RE: Pilot Training - 1/14/2017 4:44:14 PM   
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GetAssista
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
.. with experience levels between 55-65 but with only average to low skills in any specific category. It is important to cull them out and train them up. These will ultimately be your best pilots rather than the replacement pilots that you train up to 50 experience and 70 skill. This is my practice for fighter pilots anyways.

My observations is that 50xp/70air fighters get xp flying CAP (in some backwater bases) faster than 70xp/50air guys train their air

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 11
RE: Pilot Training - 1/14/2017 5:28:38 PM   
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bradfordkay
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Status: offline 		Revthought wrote:
"In fact, the only time I do use fighters this way is the really early war as the Allies when my Japanese opponent overreaches a little with fighter and surface cover for some of the tertiary Japanese invasions. And I've yet to "sink" a ship with machine guns. "

I have found that setting my squadron to naval attack at 100' is the only way to get them to attack TFs made up of only landing barges. It has been awhile since the AI sent one of those my way, so I don't recall if any were sunk. BTW: I typically use P39s or P400s for this job.

_____________________________

fair winds,
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(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 12
RE: Pilot Training - 9/27/2017 9:50:15 AM   
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Zecke
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Posts: 1330
Joined: 1/15/2005
From: Hitoeton
Status: offline 		Pilots are trannig always; just assing whatever objetives that the AI will check if you are doing well...thats my expirence playing WITP, dont know sure if Admiral will be more complex.

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 13
RE: Pilot Training - 9/27/2017 9:51:33 AM   
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Zecke
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Posts: 1330
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From: Hitoeton
Status: offline 		we must found the key to train pilots at admirals as quikly as possible because 1942 is the key to break the american planes.

(in reply to Zecke)
Post #: 14
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