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Highballing to Moscow - 1/13/2017 9:21:05 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		I almost hate to do this, but what the heck, I have to keep my membership in the SFC.

In my most recent game as Soviets, I didn't survive 10 turns as one very clever player came across the idea of using an effective Lvov Pocket in combination with throwing away the operational plan for Barbarossa.

Panzer Group 4 and 18th Army are stripped from the AGN OOB and follow the pile of AGC units on their way to Moscow.

Below is turn 6. My first major line of defense after the Smolensk land bridge was planned to last for 4 turns. It didn't last 1 as Manstein, Model and the gang blow my lines away. Very important to note the fuel situation of some of the lead units, at or near full.



I pulled back the southern portion of that line to help defend Moscow. By the next turn, the Germans were within 7 hexes of Moscow.



Moscow was surrounded within 3 turns. Game over. Given the amount of industry that needed to be evacuated, there wasn't a chance to reinforce the area with a lot of units.

Any ideas on what I might have done different?




Post #: 1
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/14/2017 1:51:53 AM   
GeneralfeldmarschallWalterModel

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 12/25/2016
Status: offline 		Interesting as in my current game the German player tried the same thing, but so far I easly stopped it.

He started out normal then moved everything to the center the 2nd turn. I started out with the standard save Moscow at all costs strategy, but saw him going all in for Moscow and shifted good units from Leningrad to center.

I pulled back from the land bridge turn 4 and kept with drawing until Rzkev.

By the time he got there I had 100 miles of lvl 2 forts and best units.

In your game player looks to know logistics system better then mine.


(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 2
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/14/2017 1:54:55 AM   
TheOne

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 10/26/2016
Status: offline 		It is possible to do a bunch of HQBU's turn 3 in the center, then another turn 4 ect ect normal chaining method used in south.
I believe you could stop it, but you have to have everything good in the center and be digging turn 1-7 from Moscow west,
checker board the south and only rail out stuff east of rivers giving up everything west side so you could easly stay ahead of
curve on rest of map.

probably the newest flavor of the month German Strategy, just be flexible defending.


What is players name?


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RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/14/2017 3:20:42 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOne


probably the newest flavor of the month German Strategy, just be flexible defending.


What is players name?



Nope, but a good guess. It is my strat and been using it for a long time. But there are intricate details I rather not discuss right now. Maybe after I get to a comfortable turn with others I am playing I will do a write up AAR but leave out peoples names. When I do the write up you will see opponents doing the same thing over and over again. Suffice to say that a defense in depth was needed in some areas by M60.

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RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/14/2017 3:29:26 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOne


probably the newest flavor of the month German Strategy, just be flexible defending.


What is players name?



Nope, but a good guess. It is my strat and been using it for a long time. But there are intricate details I rather not discuss right now. Maybe after I get to a comfortable turn with others I am playing I will do a write up AAR but leave out peoples names. When I do the write up you will see opponents doing the same thing over and over again. Suffice to say that a defense in depth was needed in some areas by M60.


Also, Just as I posted in Michael T's post "Hell bent on Lebensraum IV" you can punish large defense stacks. There were numerous occasions of this at the land bridge.


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RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/14/2017 3:52:43 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GeneralfeldmarschallWalterModel

Interesting as in my current game the German player tried the same thing, but so far I easly stopped it.

He started out normal then moved everything to the center the 2nd turn. I started out with the standard save Moscow at all costs strategy, but saw him going all in for Moscow and shifted good units from Leningrad to center.

I pulled back from the land bridge turn 4 and kept with drawing until Rzkev.

By the time he got there I had 100 miles of lvl 2 forts and best units.

In your game player looks to know logistics system better then mine.




We aren't comparing apples to apples here ;} Skill level in these two games are WAY different.

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RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/15/2017 4:06:30 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

Any ideas on what I might have done different?

It would be useful if you could post ealier screenshots.

In general I would say that the 'PG 4 through the center' strategy is a viable one and something the Soviet player needs to guard against from turn 1. Always have something in VL on turn 1. Also be prepared for PG 4 to feign towards Leningrad before switching back on turn 3 or 4.
If PG 4 does head for the center then think about backing off one turn sooner than you normally would. The terrain East and North of Smolensk can be turned into a powerful defense line. Make sure he doesn't blow through this area before you have a chance to defend it. Normally I would want to have a strong defense in that area by turn 6, with an Axis all-in Moscow strategy I'd bring that forward to turn 5.


(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 7
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/15/2017 7:12:28 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Sorry Timmy, I had not intended to do an AAR so I only did a few screenshots on Turns 6 & 7. As far as the powerful defensive line east and north of Smolensk goes, I thought that's what I was doing. Obviously I wasn't. VL was defended early on too.

As far as HardLuck's comment about more defense in depth, I was stacked along much of that line and could have gone single unit carpet I suppose. But railing in more units from the south would lower my railcap and hinder industrial evacuation. It's always a fine balancing act in the first ten turns.

Anyways, given the rate he appears to be burning through opponents in the Opponents Wanted section, I'm not sure if anyone's found an answer- yet.

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Post #: 8
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/15/2017 7:35:20 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Sorry Timmy, I had not intended to do an AAR so I only did a few screenshots on Turns 6 & 7. As far as the powerful defensive line east and north of Smolensk goes, I thought that's what I was doing. Obviously I wasn't. VL was defended early on too.

As far as HardLuck's comment about more defense in depth, I was stacked along much of that line and could have gone single unit carpet I suppose. But railing in more units from the south would lower my railcap and hinder industrial evacuation. It's always a fine balancing act in the first ten turns.

Anyways, given the rate he appears to be burning through opponents in the Opponents Wanted section, I'm not sure if anyone's found an answer- yet.


Sent you a PM M60A3TTS on where I thought more units could be placed to have stopped me. Check your screen shots and let me know. As you know I recon like crazy and it tells me a lot.

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Post #: 9
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/15/2017 8:22:02 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		There is nothing new about such a strategy in either WITE or any East Front game. Against sound defensive play it is a strategy destined for failure. And even if it succeeded I certainly would not be resigning just because Moscow fell. With so many resources thrown at Moscow the rest of the front must surely be doing well.

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Post #: 10
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/15/2017 8:28:50 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Too bad you're retired Michael. I'd genuinely like to see how you would fare. HardLuck seems to be able to make as much progress in the early turns as Pelton ever did.

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Post #: 11
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/15/2017 8:42:17 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

There is nothing new about such a strategy in either WITE or any East Front game. Against sound defensive play it is a strategy destined for failure. And even if it succeeded I certainly would not be resigning just because Moscow fell. With so many resources thrown at Moscow the rest of the front must surely be doing well.


Nope, nothing new but I have my twist on it which makes it mine. Who ever said all resources were thrown at Moscow? All my resources aren't thrown at Moscow. I have a balanced approach but Moscow was my Number 1 priority on the list. I believe even yourself said so in your AAR's that Moscow is number UNO when playing the Germans, am I mistaken?

As for M60's game resigning was the correct thing to do. Moscow was surrounded and Leningrad was cut off with Industry in both cities). M60 did great on evacuating the south :) Plus he had less than 20 divisions at most Oka North that were not surrounded (could be more but that is my screenshots from Recon) South I was pushing Kharkov (2 hexes) and Stalino (4 hexes). You just don't know all the details Michael :)

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RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/15/2017 8:46:13 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Too bad you're retired Michael. I'd genuinely like to see how you would fare. HardLuck seems to be able to make as much progress in the early turns as Pelton ever did.


I offered to play him but Mainsten63 got the bill :)

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Post #: 13
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/15/2017 9:39:20 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		You will know when you have done or are doing something unique when they nerf it. That happened twice too me. Otherwise it’s just uneven player skill, or perhaps an overall imbalance in the game. Which at the moment is fairly pro German.

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Post #: 14
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/15/2017 9:49:47 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

You will know when you have done or are doing something unique when they nerf it. That happened twice too me. Otherwise it’s just uneven player skill, or perhaps an overall imbalance in the game. Which at the moment is fairly pro German.


That must be it, the game is pro German, because I sux at this game :) (I like the low profile keeps people guessing on skill) I will now crawl back in my shell and dust off my copy of Fire in the East and Scorched earth.

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Post #: 15
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/15/2017 10:23:40 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

As far as the powerful defensive line east and north of Smolensk goes, I thought that's what I was doing

The line I'm thinking of is built around the upper Dnyper. It can be made extremely tough in the middle and even an ace Axis player will probably choose to go around it.
After this line takes some of the steam off, retreat to the next good defensive line, lake Seliger/Rshev/Vyasma/Bryansk. Probably about turn 7 verses an expert. This line is difficult to defend and needs a very strong plug between Vyasma and Rshev.
At this rate you might well lose Moscow by late Summer, but with skill and luck you'll have your army intact and Leningrad too.

quote:

I'm not sure if anyone's found an answer- yet


An expert Axis player is incredibly difficult to handle now and maybe that's as it should be. And there's no shame in losing to a good player.
As Mike said, losing Moscow isn't the end of the world. Although it is a major blow for sure.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 1/15/2017 10:24:56 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/16/2017 1:29:30 AM   
TheOne

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 10/26/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

You will know when you have done or are doing something unique when they nerf it. That happened twice too me. Otherwise it’s just uneven player skill, or perhaps an overall imbalance in the game. Which at the moment is fairly pro German.


That must be it, the game is pro German, because I sux at this game :) (I like the low profile keeps people guessing on skill) I will now crawl back in my shell and dust off my copy of Fire in the East and Scorched earth.


You are simply all talk, no AAR's

The only time I see your name in an AAR is vs a good player is vs Pelton and your cried family issues and quit the game.

Like Michael said " until you cause nerfs to the game" your a newbie.

Your 0 and 1.

Michael has never even lost Leningrad and that was back in the day when the game was 100% pro German.

Player skills being = the Russians should win 100% of the time.

Problem is most players simply only understand 20% of the game so its easy to find a new player and easly beat them.


(I like the low profile keeps people guessing on skill)

No it simply means you have none and quit when you play vs a good player.

Yes bro crawl back in your hole and best wishes to your family :)




< Message edited by TheOne -- 1/16/2017 1:32:20 AM >

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RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/16/2017 1:41:31 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

You will know when you have done or are doing something unique when they nerf it. That happened twice too me. Otherwise it’s just uneven player skill, or perhaps an overall imbalance in the game. Which at the moment is fairly pro German.


That must be it, the game is pro German, because I sux at this game :) (I like the low profile keeps people guessing on skill) I will now crawl back in my shell and dust off my copy of Fire in the East and Scorched earth.


You are simply all talk, no AAR's

The only time I see your name in an AAR is vs a good player is vs Pelton and your cried family issues and quit the game.

Like Michael said " until you cause nerfs to the game" your a newbie.

Your 0 and 1.

Michael has never even lost Leningrad and that was back in the day when the game was 100% pro German.

Player skills being = the Russians should win 100% of the time.

Problem is most players simply only understand 20% of the game so its easy to find a new player and easly beat them.


(I like the low profile keeps people guessing on skill)

No it simply means you have none and quit when you play vs a good player.

Yes bro crawl back in your hole and best wishes to your family :)






Yup, this is definitely Pelton. His typical reply. Can't believe the Moderators let him stay in all the different proxies.



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RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/16/2017 2:00:46 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

You will know when you have done or are doing something unique when they nerf it. That happened twice too me. Otherwise it’s just uneven player skill, or perhaps an overall imbalance in the game. Which at the moment is fairly pro German.


That must be it, the game is pro German, because I sux at this game :) (I like the low profile keeps people guessing on skill) I will now crawl back in my shell and dust off my copy of Fire in the East and Scorched earth.




No it simply means you have none and quit when you play vs a good player.








I never quit that game Pelton. I said the turns were going to be slow because of my Moms cancer & me going to Japan for over a Month. Read the post in your AAR. You (Pelton) then asked to withdraw from the game yourself. Boy how you distort the facts.



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Post #: 19
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/16/2017 7:09:25 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Maybe the balance of the game is quite good, but everyone play with too many pro-german option such as mild winter and no soviet attack bonus the first year.

It is very difficult to balance the game with so many critical options. Too much options is a nightmare for a game designer.

I hope there will be only one blizzard and one rule for WITE2.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 20
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/16/2017 4:25:59 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

You will know when you have done or are doing something unique when they nerf it. That happened twice too me. Otherwise it’s just uneven player skill, or perhaps an overall imbalance in the game. Which at the moment is fairly pro German.


That must be it, the game is pro German, because I sux at this game :) (I like the low profile keeps people guessing on skill) I will now crawl back in my shell and dust off my copy of Fire in the East and Scorched earth.


You are simply all talk, no AAR's

The only time I see your name in an AAR is vs a good player is vs Pelton and your cried family issues and quit the game.

Like Michael said " until you cause nerfs to the game" your a newbie.

Your 0 and 1.

Michael has never even lost Leningrad and that was back in the day when the game was 100% pro German.

Player skills being = the Russians should win 100% of the time.

Problem is most players simply only understand 20% of the game so its easy to find a new player and easly beat them.


(I like the low profile keeps people guessing on skill)

No it simply means you have none and quit when you play vs a good player.

Yes bro crawl back in your hole and best wishes to your family :)






Yup, this is definitely Pelton. His typical reply. Can't believe the Moderators let him stay in all the different proxies.




His typical reply of Character assassination otherwise known as an Ad Hominem argument. Pelton uses it often when he feels threatened on the forums. I will help out and spell out what this is;

Character Assassination: "The Malicious and unjustified harming of a person's reputation. Deliberate process to destroy credibility to achieve their goals".

So my question is why is Pelton doing this? Normally it is the result of being rejected, well that is a check mark in that column being kicked off the forums. Next is Jealousy & Envious but why? Because someone mentioned that another has skills the same if not better than his? Well that is another check box.

I really feel pity for someone that lashes out such as this instead of giving constructive critique in a civilized manner as others have done. The forums "will" be a better place without such remarks but the specter of Pelton and his many "proxies" still haunt this place.

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Post #: 21
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/16/2017 7:48:54 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Where are the mods?

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 22
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/16/2017 8:25:31 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		I'm here but what do you expect me to say or do?

I can lock the thread and delete posts but no more. I could tell everyone off but the root cause of this whole problem (Pelton aka Hunter63 aka TheOne aka ?) shows no respect for anyone here so why should I bother?

Perhaps I should post a screenshot of Pelton's last e-mail in which his view of you (morvael) was less than complementary and his comments about anyone else involved in developing this game who has criticised him was equally offensive to show people his true nature (as if they don't know.)

Maybe I should post a list of how he lies and twists the truth at every turn. How everything he does is about winning and making himself look good. It certainly has nothing to do with improving this game for others. That is just one of those lies he spins.

The bottom line is that as long as this community tolerates Pelton's presence in any guise, including playing him, this isn't going to stop. He'll be back with yet another avatar, laughing at how clever he believes he is, singing his own praises and abusing everybody else.

This is not a moderator solvable issue. This forum is a community and only the community can solve this problem.







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Post #: 23
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/16/2017 9:26:35 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
.../...
Anyways, given the rate he appears to be burning through opponents in the Opponents Wanted section, I'm not sure if anyone's found an answer- yet.

Just my opinion about Hardluckyetagain

Considering the person:
Always respectfull, a nice man

Considering our game: Hardluck (german) stef78 (russian)
Opening perfect, no Pocket breachable
Then high tempo (master of logistics) and excellent concentration of strength.
Imaginative player
Turn 10: Northern front collapses, Breakthrough in the center and Moscow under direct threat.
Game over.

Not sure if I'm a full newbie (23 GC played) but I've been destroyed by a far better player than me.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 24
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/16/2017 10:05:34 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
I'm here but what do you expect me to say or do?

This is not a moderator solvable issue. This forum is a community and only the community can solve this problem.


Even if the hydra has many heads and they regrow, the duty of a person armed with a sword, is to try cutting off each one as they appear.

I guess not everyone here is aware of the issue, there are people who don't know about the whole drama, so they can't help in solving that problem. And what can the rest do? Write more posts ad nauseam?

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 25
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/17/2017 10:20:23 AM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		+1 morvael, but also, +1 Red Lancer. After all, there is a limit to what pro bono leadership can do and what can be programmed.

Posters beware. Best advice, save your time.

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Post #: 26
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/17/2017 4:33:53 PM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline

Takes a seat... Offers popcorn and beer to Red Lancer and Morvael...

and again tips my hat to Morvael for his excellent and appreciated improvements to this marvelous game,
which has me once again in 2017 waging war across the wide steppes of Russia with one of my oldest wargamer friends in
another Grand Campaign. Drama aside...

Happy New Year ! Morvael and Red Lancer !

(in reply to swkuh)
Post #: 27
RE: Highballing to Moscow - 1/17/2017 6:50:56 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		I don't eat and drink on duty but thanks for the offer.

For what it is worth the TheOne has been banned.

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Post #: 28
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