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A great Book about "Pappy" Boyington

 
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A great Book about "Pappy" Boyington - 4/28/2003 10:52:59 PM   
Micah Goodman

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline 		I have just read a great biography of Gregory “Pappy” Boyington, called Black Sheep One by Bruce Gamble. Ballantine published the book. I have to admit that after reading the book I think that Boyington while a good pilot was not the hero he was made out to be and that his claimed total of 26 victories is highly suspect. But the book is a great read and does bring an almost mythical figure to life.
Post #: 1
Re: A great Book about "Pappy" Boyington - 4/29/2003 12:29:14 AM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Micah Goodman
[B]I have just read a great biography of Gregory “Pappy” Boyington, called Black Sheep One by Bruce Gamble. Ballantine published the book. I have to admit that after reading the book I think that Boyington while a good pilot was not the hero he was made out to be and that his claimed total of 26 victories is highly suspect. But the book is a great read and does bring an almost mythical figure to life. [/B][/QUOTE]

You will have to define what a hero is before deciding if Boyington was a hero or not.

Also remember why he was called 'Pappy', yea it had to do with his age IIRC he was a good 10 years older than the other pilots.

What he learned in the Tigers about how to fight the Japanese is what kept him and his men alive.

Sounds like the book will be added to my "To Be Read" list.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 2
Re: Re: A great Book about "Pappy" Boyington - 4/29/2003 1:51:47 AM   
Micah Goodman

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pbear
[B]

Also remember why he was called 'Pappy', yea it had to do with his age IIRC he was a good 10 years older than the other pilots.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually that is one of the many untruths that surrounded his career and life. The term Pappy came along in large part because it rhymed better in a song than did Grandpappy a fictinal cartoon character made up by the Navy. For most of Boyington’s military career he was nicknamed “Rats” because of his close physical resemblance to a Russian born stage actor of the time, whose name his fellow Marines shortened to Rats as a moniker for Boyington.. Pappy did not become a popularly used nickname for him until the press picked it up until late 1943.

The book just reinforced my belief that the T.V. series Baa Baa Black Sheep was one of the worst series about World War 2 that ever went on air.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 3
- 4/29/2003 8:04:33 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		But John Laroquette was on Black Sheep, how could it be a bad show?

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Post #: 4
- 4/29/2003 8:19:15 AM   
Micah Goodman

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snigbert
[B]But John Laroquette was on Black Sheep, how could it be a bad show? [/B][/QUOTE]

LOL! Ok you got me on that one.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 5
- 4/29/2003 8:48:42 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		They use to film the series by Lake Piru north of Los angeles. I remember driving by and seeing the palm trees sticking up out of nowhere. Hated the series. You don't see reruns either. Robert Conrad was Pappy.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 6
- 4/29/2003 1:11:11 PM   
Nimits

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 9/30/2000
Status: offline 		What's wrong with Black Sheep Squadron? Sure, its not historically accurate by any stretch of the imgination, but it was a show about World War II fighter planes.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 7
- 4/29/2003 6:40:40 PM   
Chijohnaok2


Posts: 628
Joined: 7/29/2002
From: Florida, USA (formerly Chicago)
Status: offline 		===============================================
They use to film the series by Lake Piru north of Los angeles. I remember driving by and seeing the palm trees sticking up out of nowhere. Hated the series. You don't see reruns either. Robert Conrad was Pappy.
===============================================


While not currently airing on its program list, the show has appeared at times on the History Channel.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 8
- 4/29/2003 8:32:25 PM   
frizt

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 3/19/2003
From: USA
Status: offline 		The series was OK, though not even close to the historical events. With nurses on advanced bases? Black sheeps never saw nurses on their base. (The first thing Pappy did after he was released from POW camp was to kiss a nurse on a hospital ship.....) And the nurses are all so beatuiful? Pilots were doing nothing but dating, playing and drinking? One of the nureses was Gen. Moore's daughter? Yamato was bombed to hell by black sheep? Yamamoto was shot down with Black sheep's help? Challenge "Meatball" one on one?....plus the repeated and repeated fighting scene, the same in every serie. Oh man....

But But But.....I LIKE THIS SERIE!! It is just a Hollywood one, so why bother trying to match the stories with history books? Buttomline is: It is fun to watch it :)

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 9
- 4/30/2003 1:51:36 AM   
Micah Goodman

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline 		I would not have been so critical of the show if they had picked a fictional group and told a story. But to try and dress it up like "TV History" made what really happened to the men on both sides seem trivial. I have no problem with T.V. entertainment particularly if it involves World War 2. But, I do have a problem when Hollywood tires to take fiction and make it fact. Take for example the movie, Saving Private Ryan an absolutely fantastic movie about American infantrymen in WW 2. I know the dialogue was a little too 1990’s but it was still a great movie, and it did not need to pretend that it was based on fact.

Americans for the most part are ignorant of history and by airing shows like Baa Baa Black Sheep it creates a false sense of history. Take the movie Patton for instance. Most Americans’ knowledge of Patton comes from that movie. Considering that the chief technical advisor was General Omar Bradley, a man who detested Patton, it is not surprising that the movie is replete with historical inaccuracies.

But, I constantly run into people who take the movie as historical fact. The same happens to a lesser degree with Baa Baa Black Sheep. That and the fact that the nurses looked like they just walked of the set of Charlie’s Angles just made me want to groan, even as a kid. I couldn’t even get into show that featured one of the sweetest looking fighters to come out of the war, and that is saying something.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 10
Re: A great Book about "Pappy" Boyington - 4/30/2003 2:34:43 AM   
Von_Frag

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 5/7/2002
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Micah Goodman
[B]I have just read a great biography of Gregory “Pappy” Boyington, called Black Sheep One by Bruce Gamble. Ballantine published the book. I have to admit that after reading the book I think that Boyington while a good pilot was not the hero he was made out to be and that his claimed total of 26 victories is highly suspect. But the book is a great read and does bring an almost mythical figure to life. [/B][/QUOTE]

Boyington said at one time "show me a hero and I'll show you a heel".

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 11
- 4/30/2003 4:10:55 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nimits
[B]What's wrong with Black Sheep Squadron? Sure, its not historically accurate by any stretch of the imgination, but it was a show about World War II fighter planes. [/B][/QUOTE] Actually its been many years since I watched it when it first came out so I shouldn't commnet on how good it was. But I never liked Robert Conrad except in Wild Wild West so maybe that's my bias.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 12
- 4/30/2003 5:12:34 AM   
Nimits

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 9/30/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Micah Goodman
[B]I would not have been so critical of the show if they had picked a fictional group and told a story. But to try and dress it up like "TV History" made what really happened to the men on both sides seem trivial. I have no problem with T.V. entertainment particularly if it involves World War 2. But, I do have a problem when Hollywood tires to take fiction and make it fact. Take for example the movie, Saving Private Ryan an absolutely fantastic movie about American infantrymen in WW 2. I know the dialogue was a little too 1990’s but it was still a great movie, and it did not need to pretend that it was based on fact.

Americans for the most part are ignorant of history and by airing shows like Baa Baa Black Sheep it creates a false sense of history. Take the movie Patton for instance. Most Americans’ knowledge of Patton comes from that movie. Considering that the chief technical advisor was General Omar Bradley, a man who detested Patton, it is not surprising that the movie is replete with historical inaccuracies.

But, I constantly run into people who take the movie as historical fact. The same happens to a lesser degree with Baa Baa Black Sheep. That and the fact that the nurses looked like they just walked of the set of Charlie’s Angles just made me want to groan, even as a kid. I couldn’t even get into show that featured one of the sweetest looking fighters to come out of the war, and that is saying something. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, the movie Patton is still, by and lagre, a historically accurate representation of the man (besides being one of the greatest films of all times). Anyway, my only problem with Black Sheep Squadron was that at times they inserted the Black Sheep into real life events (such as the interception of Yammamoto) where historically, the Black Sheep were not involved. Otherwise, the rampant historical idiosycrancies did not bother me. Actually, I have more problems with a movie such as Pearl Harbor, that does enough right that it looks almost real, than with something as fanciful as the old Black Sheep Squadron show. Besides, I'd rather watch a show about WWII than another cookie cutter sitcom about a bunch of people I would'nt let in my house IRL.

BTW, Saving Private Ryan is based, very loosely on a real incident. There really was a private in the Airborne who's borthers were all killed, and he really did get pulled off the line. Only historically, all that happened is he was ordered to go home and he left; none of the rescue mission stuff.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 13
- 4/30/2003 6:53:32 AM   
SoulBlazer

 

Posts: 839
Joined: 10/27/2002
From: Providence RI
Status: offline 		Gotta agree about Patton. Lousy history but great character study on the man. Too bad he was killed just after the European war ended -- and in a car accident, no less. I would have loved to have seen if he would have been sent to Korea and how long he would have stayed in the military.

_____________________________

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Post #: 14
- 4/30/2003 7:21:42 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		Scott also played Patton in the sequel about his death.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 15
- 4/30/2003 9:47:33 AM   
Micah Goodman

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nimits
[B]Well, the movie Patton is still, by and lagre, a historically accurate representation of the man (besides being one of the greatest films of all times). [/B][/QUOT

You know its ironic that in some ways George C. Scott was actually a better Patton than Patton was. I know that is a bizarre statement but here is what I mean by it, the face and persona that Patton portrayed to the world was one he carefully crafted and refined over a lifetime. For example in reality Patton had a very high-pitched tinny voice. I actually heard a recorded speech he gave and was shocked. I was used to George C. Scott’s’ gravely voice. Imagine the solo speech given at the beginning of the movie Patton given by George C. Scott with the voice of a chipmunk. The speech loses a lot of its energy when it comes out like that. If you find Patton an interesting historical figure I would recommend reading Patton, A genius for war, by Carlo D’Este. That is in my humble opinion the best biography I have ever read.

However, in regards to the movie, yes the bare out line of the movie was historically accurate but things that were emphasized in the movie never happened. The famous scene of Patton in the town square at Messina never happened. Patton did not want to get to Messina before Monty just to get one up on him as the movie portrayed, but rather because he honestly believed, and proved that the end around attack was better than just slogging up the cost like Monty wanted. The portrayal of Patton as a General who relieved subordinates that did not perform to his standard was also at the minimum a gross over exaggeration. For example during his entire time in Europe during WW 2 Patton relieved only ONE divisional commander. Bradley however, relieved quite a few more than did Patton.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Soulblazer
[B]Gotta agree about Patton. Lousy history but great character study on the man. Too bad he was killed just after the European war ended -- and in a car accident, no less. I would have loved to have seen if he would have been sent to Korea and how long he would have stayed in the military. [/B][/QUOT

To be truthful the best job I think Patton could have had after WW 2 was as commandant at West Point. (He had requested it after the war ended because he knew he would not cut it as a peacetime commander. As he had already been told he would not get that position the Army was basically wasting a great talent. If Patton had lived I do not believe he would have been sent to Korea and here is why, prior to MacArthurs removal he would not have gone because MacArthur would not have requested him or wanted him. (Two Prima Donna’s on the same stage does not make for a successful show.) After MacArthurs removal Truman would not have sent an officer that was known to be an aggressive commander who would do anything to win. By that time Truman had already decided that a tie in Korea was good enough. So in a weird way I think the best thing that could have happened to Patton did. Oh and one last thing, it was not really ironic that he died in a car crash. He was constantly having accidents through out his life. As a result of one injury he functioned for two days and then suddenly askied his wife where he was because the last thing he remembered was falling of a horse two days prior.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 16
- 4/30/2003 8:48:55 PM   
frizt

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 3/19/2003
From: USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Micah Goodman
[B]Take for example the movie, Saving Private Ryan an absolutely fantastic movie about American infantrymen in WW 2.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I cannot agree with people who love Saving Private Ryan. The event might be real, but the fighting scenes were just awful!
In this movie, German soldiers acted like monsters in Quak II at Rookie level, their sole purpose of live is only to be stupid and cut down by scores. Except the staring scene, the German rifle, MP, MG, HMG are toys only. Following are some scenes I remembered at best.
-American can run into a hail of German HMG bullets, and never got hit. All you can see are bullets hitting the dirt all around him.
-Germans always forgot to lock the back door of their bunker or they use bad locks. All you need to do is kick in the back door and then either BBQ them or throw in some HG.
-If German know the door is under direct fire, they will run out one by one and got shot.
- German will start running back and make their back as best targets to Americans who are about 10 yards away.
- German always run in groups and never check any corner. So you just need to wait at corner and shoot them all from back.
- German never check out buildings on their route. You just stay in second floor and shoot a dozen German with a 30-Clip. Or fry the German tank destroyer with Molotov Cocktail.
- German never look up, if you are high enough(i.e. in a tower) you can pick them up one by one. They will never suspect the high buildings in a town.
- German tankers are stupid, they never know that tanks should not be used in close combat. And the tank always come with no Infantry support. Even better, they never close the hatch!!! Go get them!!
- German weapon has accuracy=1, Penetration = 5. American weapon has accuracy=40, Penetration = 100. No German would move even once after he got hit, no matter where.
- German experience= 5. American = 100.
- German = Turkey American = Hunter
- German = Nell American=Corsair

Just give me a break!!! Germans are not stupid fighter!! They are at least as good as American soldiers. Why can we not make some movie showing the reality of war? I think the reason for that is Spielberg is a JXX. Ever watched Band of Brothers? Another sad series. I have to ask about the moral of the movie. Is killing POW a good thing to do? no matter how much you hate them? How many German POW or man trying to surrender got killed in both of the movie? Many! And there is no bad word said about that part. What is Spielberg's message? I dont dare to say.
I like his movies, but now, I think he is a racist. Sorry to put up such an angry post....

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 17
- 4/30/2003 11:54:36 PM   
Micah Goodman

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 5/23/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by frizt
[B]

Just give me a break!!! Germans are not stupid fighter!! They are at least as good as American soldiers. Why can we not make some movie showing the reality of war? I think the reason for that is Spielberg is a JXX. Ever watched Band of Brothers? Another sad series. I have to ask about the moral of the movie. Is killing POW a good thing to do? no matter how much you hate them? How many German POW or man trying to surrender got killed in both of the movie? Many! And there is no bad word said about that part. What is Spielberg's message? I dont dare to say.
I like his movies, but now, I think he is a racist. Sorry to put up such an angry post.... [/B][/QUOTE]

I think the tone and slant of your message shows just who the racist is here. As far as Band of Brothers goes that movie was based on the collective memoirs of that unit. According to the book there were rumors that that Lieutenant shot prisoners but no one in the book actually confirmed that he did shoot prisoners. If, Spielberg was such a racist then why put any thing in the series that showed Americans in a bad light? I mean after all it is just a worldwide conspiracy by people of his ethnic background to take over the world, right? If you do not like his movies fine, that’s your choice, but to bring a directors ethnic background into the discussion is irrelevant and moronic.

So, if I understand, you would rather see a movie where Americans get slaughtered and make mistakes in combat? Have you ever been in combat? I can tell by your numerical amour penetration analogy that you have not. People make mistakes in combat they always have and always will. The German army of 1944 was not the same army it was in 1940. Many of the units stationed in Normandy at the time were the so-called Ost or East Battalions. Units comprised mainly of “volunteers” from Eastern Europe or Russia. Most of those units were poorly trained and poorly motivated. So it is not unrealistic to see them make mistakes.

As far as your complaint about the tank commander driving with an open hatch in what was “obviously” a dangerous situation, I ask this, “Have you ever been in a tank?” I have, I served in them in the army and got to play on a Tiger while I was in Germany. Guess what, your field of vision is extremely limited. If you want to have a good field of vision AND be able to communicate with the supporting infantry there is only one way to do it. That’s right boys and girls, with your hatch open! Getting back to saving Private Ryan, what about the scene in the movie where the idiot American Paratroops climb on the German Tiger tank they just took out (you never go where you just killed something or where something just got killed if you can help it in combat) only to get mowed down by that German AA gun. Oh I guess Spielberg threw that in so that he would seem like such an overt racist!

So in closing frizt, you sound like the archetypical armchair general. You have read your fair share of history books, so know you “know” all about how good the German army of 1944 was. I find it curious that the only combat scenes you liked were the ones where the Americans were getting slaughtered. It sounds to me like your biggest problem is not with the movie but with who directed it.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 18
- 4/30/2003 11:57:34 PM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by frizt
[B]I cannot agree with people who love Saving Private Ryan. The event might be real, but the fighting scenes were just awful!
In this movie, German soldiers acted like monsters in Quak II at Rookie level, their sole purpose of live is only to be stupid and cut down by scores. Except the staring scene, the German rifle, MP, MG, HMG are toys only. Following are some scenes I remembered at best.
-American can run into a hail of German HMG bullets, and never got hit. All you can see are bullets hitting the dirt all around him.
-Germans always forgot to lock the back door of their bunker or they use bad locks. All you need to do is kick in the back door and then either BBQ them or throw in some HG.
-If German know the door is under direct fire, they will run out one by one and got shot.
- German will start running back and make their back as best targets to Americans who are about 10 yards away.
- German always run in groups and never check any corner. So you just need to wait at corner and shoot them all from back.
- German never check out buildings on their route. You just stay in second floor and shoot a dozen German with a 30-Clip. Or fry the German tank destroyer with Molotov Cocktail.
- German never look up, if you are high enough(i.e. in a tower) you can pick them up one by one. They will never suspect the high buildings in a town.
- German tankers are stupid, they never know that tanks should not be used in close combat. And the tank always come with no Infantry support. Even better, they never close the hatch!!! Go get them!!
- German weapon has accuracy=1, Penetration = 5. American weapon has accuracy=40, Penetration = 100. No German would move even once after he got hit, no matter where.
- German experience= 5. American = 100.
- German = Turkey American = Hunter
- German = Nell American=Corsair

Just give me a break!!! Germans are not stupid fighter!! They are at least as good as American soldiers. Why can we not make some movie showing the reality of war? I think the reason for that is Spielberg is a JXX. Ever watched Band of Brothers? Another sad series. I have to ask about the moral of the movie. Is killing POW a good thing to do? no matter how much you hate them? How many German POW or man trying to surrender got killed in both of the movie? Many! And there is no bad word said about that part. What is Spielberg's message? I dont dare to say.
I like his movies, but now, I think he is a racist. Sorry to put up such an angry post.... [/B][/QUOTE]

If Hollywood were allowed to show what real war was like no body would want to go to war. But the censors make sure that they cannot show the truth.

As for Mr. Spielberg’s message, try the absurdity of war here are a bunch of guy trying to save one man's life in the middle of all the death and destruction of war. It is based on an actual incident.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 19
- 5/1/2003 6:12:50 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		I seem to remember alot of US soldiers being killed in "Saving Private Ryan" and of course more German soldiers died than Allied in reality. As far as every movement or action being "real", there only so much you can show in a movie. I never saw or inferred any racist overtones. It was an uplifting, patriotic movie. Germany can make their own movies.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 20
- 5/1/2003 6:28:55 AM   
NAVMAN

 

Posts: 436
Joined: 12/31/2002
Status: offline 		Frizt:
I was going to ignore your post, but the more I thought about it,
the more it called for a reply. I am gratified to see others respond
as well. After reading your post, it is clear to me who the true racist is and its not Spielberg. If you want to criticize a movie or tv
show, fine. However, there is absolutely no reason to comment
on anyone's religion, especially when the poster has the temerity
to use an American flag as an icon. I happen to be a "JXX". Let
me give you a little of my family history:My father served as a
B-17 bombardier with 8th AF. Shot down near Munich 16 Jul 44.
2 KIA, 8 POW in the crew. Was a POW in Stalag Luft I for almost
a year. Two broken bones in his back and no medical treatment from the people you seem to admire. Saw an American POW shot
by the Germans(documented). Was segregated by the Germans
with other "Jxxs" in a seperate barracks despite the fact they were all American officers. My uncle was a navy corpman in the Pacific and saw combat. My cousin flew 186 missions in Vietnam
as an F-100 pilot. I served as a Naval Flight Officer in the Navy.
Please put your post where it belongs:where the sun does not
shine.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 21
- 5/1/2003 9:53:07 AM   
frizt

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 3/19/2003
From: USA
Status: offline 		I will just ignore the personal attack made on me. I only want to focus on the facts. The last thing I would do is to become personal in a discussion, and I wish everyone to behave the same way.

-First point I'd like to make is that I am not a racist at all. I lived in 3 different countries in US, Asia, and Europe. I never had any problems with any race. The reason I pointed out Mr. Spielberger's race is to hint the motive of his way of making politically misleading movies especially against German. There is no offence against Jewish people. One of my best friend in Europe is Jewish.

-Second, I never said I want to see american soldiers got slaughtered. This assumption is not correct. All I want to see is the true portrait of war. No matter who is the enemy, they are humans as well.

-Third. I happend to be an amateur military historian. Studing military history is my biggest hobby. I do read articles and books pubished by different parties in the war about a subject in order to eliminate the bias and to find the truth. Now, I am studying "Fire in the Sky" about pacific air war, written by an american historian. The way the book analyses the war is very unbiased. I wish more people can learn that way of approaching historical matter instead of believing what Hollywood says.

-Forth. I'd like to apologize for the temper, and some exaggeration in my previous article. The war is over, I just dont see the need in continuing daemonizing the old enemy. The way the movies stupified the enemy made me feel angry. I watched many German military movies. Let me put this way, I NEVER saw anything like that. Couple of good movies for beginner: Das Boot, and Stalingrad. available in most liberary.

Finally I'd like to stop the disscusion about raccial matter. This is obviously not the right place. I am sorry to have started the discussion and lets just focus on the tactical matter. Thanks.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 22
- 5/1/2003 10:12:42 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		I'm sure you aren't a racist Frizt but understand that an american movie about any war is going to be biased toward the Americans. Any country that makes a war movie will show its soldiers in the best light. but "Saving Private Ryan" seemed to break new ground in honoring its WWII veterans and the dead. It wasn't meant to address the brave Germans and their dead. Spielberg might have Jewish sounding name but that doesn't necessarily mean he practices Judaism. His race is Caucasian as far as I know.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 23
- 5/1/2003 10:36:59 AM   
NAVMAN

 

Posts: 436
Joined: 12/31/2002
Status: offline 		Bottom Line:Germans 0/2.

(in reply to Micah Goodman)
Post #: 24
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