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RE: April 1944 - 1/18/2017 1:27:27 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner
Legaspi is a cancer that has to be cut off the earliest

Aye. It has priority.

But this falls against the 'strike where the enemy is not' mandate John (and Sun Tzu) espouse. Legaspi is clearly a focus (if not the focus) of CRs incursion here.

This is where application of distinct military theories and philosophical martial vagaries comes into play. One cannot 'whip out a Sherman' or a Forrest or a Sun Tzu or a Clauswitz. Although, as an aside, I've been accused of whipping out my Clauswitz too quickly at cocktail parties after a few drinks.

What you must do as a player is to view the field of battle independent of any centuries-old bromide.

You want to strike where the enemy is weakest? OK. Maybe one of the islands nearest Australia in the Southern DEI is-comparatively-weaker than Legaspi soon will be. But which is more important to the Allied war effort? Concentration of forces in / around Luzon or holding some God-forsaken malarial fen in the Southern DEI of zero strategic import? I would be delighted as the Allied player if my opponent dispersed his counterattack forces throughout the DEI in dribs and drabs and allowed me to concentrate force on the crown jewel.

So 'strike where the enemy is weakest' if that is important to you. Provided that it doesn't interfere with your ability to strike the enemy in those areas that are actually important to the game, I'm all for it. Given a choice between the two (there's always a choice between the two, isn't there?), there's really not a choice.

Of course, that's just my opinion. YMMV.

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Post #: 2941

RE: April 1944 - 1/18/2017 1:36:09 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

The problem with Japan defending the SE peninsula of Luzon is two fold - clear terrain and being coastal. The Allied ground forces are getting too powerful and you will be subject to multiple naval bombardments if Dan wants to do so.

The problem? There's a bunch of 'em. Naval bombardments, ease of barge reinforcement, clear terrain, coastal access, nearby rail dispersion points, unfettered Eastern approach vector, etc. It will be difficult to dislodge an entrenched enemy here.

Of course, what's good for the goose and all that. Allied forces on Legaspi are tenuously clinging to their foothold too. Japanese shells will be exploding on clear (and unentrenched) terrain. For the time being, the Japanese have 'interior lines' to their Luzon troops as well. That will change if Naga and points north fall. Kamikazes are now active as well, so resupply/reinforcement of Luzon may be more challenging-especially for CVE-escorted TFs.

Much will hinge on the next few weeks in this area. Is this an existential threat to the Japanese? If so, then a vigorous and thorough response is merited. If not, then it's business as usual, I guess.

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Post #: 2942

RE: April 1944 - 1/18/2017 2:28:57 PM

MakeeLearn

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Raid and Run, Go after his "Sutlers' Wagons" if possible.
while you...
Hold and fight, Stay close and fight for what the Allies want to take.

Pull apart the main Allied force through attrition and having to commit units elsewhere.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 1/18/2017 2:30:45 PM >

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Post #: 2943

RE: April 1944 - 1/18/2017 3:44:51 PM

John 3rd

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Keep up the thoughts boys. I am highly aware of the possibilities and dangers present right now.

Course we can talk about keep this--defend that--hold no matter what--but events rapidly change one turn to the next. Just a day after landing Legaspi falls. Major units identified so far: 6th--9th Aussie ID, 6th and 43rd US ID.

Well...we will poke back this turn. His TFs are all lightly defended where his CV are not. Good. Here we go:

1. Manila has a small TF of AKL in it serving as bait. There are now 200+ Fighters present. We hope to eat some American TB--DB here.

2. Three small STF move in to hit a few locations: 3 DD, 1 CL 3 DD, and a CA 4 DD. Paths shown on the screenshot.

3. Mindanao fills with attack aircraft. The 9th Air Fleet is here and Davao/Cagayan grow to 250 Fighters, 125 2EB--Torps, and 100 TB. Set the range to just close enough to NOT engage the American CVs.

There will be fireworks this coming day.

I did not see a Kamikaze notice. Is there a location I can find for this?

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Post #: 2944

RE: April 1944 - 1/18/2017 5:11:05 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Course we can talk about keep this--defend that--hold no matter what--but events rapidly change one turn to the next. Just a day after landing Legaspi falls. Major units identified so far: 6th--9th Aussie ID, 6th and 43rd US ID.

Are you telling us that six Allied Infantry divisions just landed on Legaspi?

quote:

I did not see a Kamikaze notice. Is there a location I can find for this?

Like my previous post said, 20 hexes from Takao, etc. Check the math. I think it should qualify. If memory suits, the Leyte landings (and the initial kamikaze attacks associated with Leyte gulf) were made to be triggered in the game. Being as the Allies are closer in, it *should* work.

Like I said earlier, I also vaguely recall that the Allies have to have possession of a port (or is it airfield) > size 1 within the aforementioned range. It's not in the manual, but I recall this discussion.

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Post #: 2945

RE: April 1944 - 1/18/2017 6:17:51 PM

adarbrauner

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So the cancer grew too big to be chirugically removed. It has to be reduced by chemo before.

The game is becoming complicated.

I envisioned or predicted that CR may leave a strong escort comprised of several CVEs + a very powerful surface force. I then envisioned that John shall attack them with a combination of land and ship based airplanes + big surface ships.
I then assessed that this should result, in worse of case, in heavy surface losses for both; in any case this being a strategic victory for Japan.

Your bets?

P.S.: what about the last Allied stronghold in Celebes?

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 1/18/2017 6:19:44 PM >

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Post #: 2946

RE: April 1944 - 1/18/2017 10:29:25 PM

John 3rd

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Palapo FELL last turn with the second assault clearing 6-1 and getting the surrender of four units. NICE!

Already am moving Brigades and ordered 'prep' on several possible targets that we have discussed on the previous page. We shall see how close he is paying attention to INTEL. Perhpas it is better to say how seriously he is taking his INTEL.

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Post #: 2947

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 12:17:30 AM

John 3rd

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April 6, 1944

Dan and I got in a bonus turn this afternoon.

All of Dan's exposed TF retreat under the skirt of the 1.0x10^6. No planes fly to attack anything.

One STF made up of CL Shokatsu and 3 DDs catch a TF of 7 LCI and sink them with no issue. They also dispatch an SC on patrol duty. CA Mikuma's TF also sinks an SC doing the same thing. No losses getting in or out. That is nice.

My 3 AKL sunk in a strike of 100 Fighters and 36 DB. Losses are fairly even as they only ran up against 27 George's. This was by design. Tomorrow a small TK and 2 SC will be the bait with nearly 200 Fighters now flying cover. THIS shall be a CAP Trap. Maybe I can beat-up some of Dan's 10,000+ planes flying in the 1.0x10^6.

As mentioned Palopo falls and four units surrender to Japan. Nice conclusion to the improvised Celebes offensive.

Take a LOOK at Legaspi. YIKES!

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< Message edited by John 3rd -- 1/19/2017 12:51:40 AM >

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Post #: 2948

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 8:13:47 AM

adarbrauner

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Excellent engagements, congrs.

If the Main Carrier Fleet has left out of range, I think you should counterstrike-invade the smaller targets and islands in central Philippines, as 1st 1st priority.

Also, if we want to seriuosly fight for Philippines, Naga MUST NOT fall at any price, and the cancer contained there where is it now before start receiving some chemo treatment.

I think all agree with this.

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Post #: 2949

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 12:05:54 PM

ny59giants

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Luzon - What exactly do you have here?? Divisions and brigades? What's on its way here? Air assets? Bases with forts at 4 or more? Supplies?

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Post #: 2950

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 12:22:26 PM

MakeeLearn

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quote:

--but events rapidly change one turn to the next

The most important part of any plan, the ability to change in response to the battlefield. Recon and intel is vital and its interpretation of the upmost dependence. Be flexible and adaptable in finding and attacking the chink in the enemy's armor.

A dynamic plan.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 1/19/2017 12:36:45 PM >

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Post #: 2951

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 12:37:42 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Excellent engagements, congrs.

If the Main Carrier Fleet has left out of range, I think you should counterstrike-invade the smaller targets and islands in central Philippines, as 1st 1st priority.

Also, if we want to seriuosly fight for Philippines, Naga MUST NOT fall at any price, and the cancer contained there where is it now before start receiving some chemo treatment.

I think all agree with this.

I think we all agree that Luzon is where it's at right now. The other minor invasions are of secondary import.

A pet peave of mine in planning (IRL or otherwise) is the over identification of 'top priority' to include all things. At the Universities where I taught, this was a common failing with administration: they were incapable of committing to a primary course of action or primary viewpoint. In their eyes, they wanted to go equally all directions with equal heft, yet declare the primacy of any course. Of course-predictably-all roads led to mediocrity.

So, no. I don't agree that the counterinvasion of the smaller Philippine islands is a "1st 1st" priority. Not at all. If Luzon is overrun (which I see as a possibility here, unless rapid and decisive action is taken), these smaller invasions won't matter a whit. Concentration of force and holding the line here is the only thing of import. All else is secondary or tertiary in importance.

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Post #: 2952

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 12:38:04 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Luzon - What exactly do you have here?? Divisions and brigades? What's on its way here? Air assets? Bases with forts at 4 or more? Supplies?

Yeah. What he said.

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Post #: 2953

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 12:59:14 PM

Chickenboy

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John,

Following threads upon threads upon threads, I *think* this is the be-all say-all final answer to whether the Kamikazes will be activated by this Luzon incursion:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2617899&mpage=1&key=kamikaze%2Cactivation

Note that MichaelM (post #7) states that such hexes inside the requisite range must have an AIRFIELD of size 1 to qualify. I assume Legaspi qualifies?

Look at some of your airgroups-maybe the IJAAF 2EBs-on the home islands in training? Do you see a new tab on their training screens to 'train for kamikaze' or 'convert to kamikaze' for the group?

One would *think* that a national conversion to suicide attacks being the method du jour would at least merit a comment in the OPS report for the day, but I just don't know how this is 'announced'.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 1/19/2017 1:01:20 PM >

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Post #: 2954

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 1:35:48 PM

John 3rd

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Lots of Posting and appreciation goes out--THANKS.

When I run this turn I'll answer the Kamikaze question decisively. Looked at bombers last turn but did not see any added button. Will see...

As to Luzon--forces present--2 ID, 5 Brigades--have another ID and 2 Brigades within 1-2 days of landing. Am landing at San Fernando. Always knew this time would come and Manila would be a natural target so I expanded San Fernando as a Port for an alternate unloading site.

Supply plentiful with Manila at near 100,000 by itself. Nearly every base is Fort 4 or higher.

Naga will fall easily. The Brigade and two support units shall not hold. I have troops moving to Atimonan and Luceno. We'll try to make a stand there.

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Post #: 2955

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 1:37:39 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

John,

Following threads upon threads upon threads, I *think* this is the be-all say-all final answer to whether the Kamikazes will be activated by this Luzon incursion:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2617899&mpage=1&key=kamikaze%2Cactivation

Note that MichaelM (post #7) states that such hexes inside the requisite range must have an AIRFIELD of size 1 to qualify. I assume Legaspi qualifies?

Look at some of your airgroups-maybe the IJAAF 2EBs-on the home islands in training? Do you see a new tab on their training screens to 'train for kamikaze' or 'convert to kamikaze' for the group?

One would *think* that a national conversion to suicide attacks being the method du jour would at least merit a comment in the OPS report for the day, but I just don't know how this is 'announced'.

Just read the Post you describe. Looks pretty definitive. Will check when next turn is done this morning.

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Post #: 2956

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 1:56:40 PM

Andav

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When you look at any air group it will have an additional selection in the middle of the screen near where you tell it to fly day/night missions to convert the unit to kamikaze. It will be grayed out of the unit can't convert (exp is too high or morale is too low). There is a number in parentheses which is the total groups you can convert. You can only do one per day but each day you do not use is retained so they will accumulate. It cost 10 vps to convert.

They are by far the best way to kill Fletchers. They work well against merchants. Against anything with decent AA or any armor they will do little damage. CAP tends to eat them up as well.

Make sure you are training Naval Attack at 1000 feet so LowNav is trained. If you train Naval attack at 100 ft, you will get a bunch of pilots which are awesome at strafing but suck at being a flying bomb. I know this from experience. Once the unit is converted to a kamikaze unit, they have a specific training assignment of kamikaze which makes the altitude irrelevant. They will train LowNav. Train the pilots up to 50 and they will do ok. Anything higher will help a lot. Have you been training pilots in anticipation of kamikaze activation so you have some ready to go? Some of us did not. If not, do not waste your time using them until they are trained to 50. Even against merchants they will not hit often if their Low Naval skill is under 50.

While they sound very sexy, it has been my experience they really are not very effective against anything larger then a DD.

Wa

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Post #: 2957

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 2:24:10 PM

John 3rd

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They can also serve to 'occupy' the CAP while good groups go in as well.

I've been training in Low Nav with TONS of groups--particularly IJA--so we'll see what occurs.

This is all new to me. Haven't penetrated to this point in a long time so we'll run this phase of the game as an educational camp!

Running new turn now.

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Post #: 2958

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 3:10:10 PM

crsutton

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An AFB perspective here. Although the main island is important the more pertinent fact is that the Allies now hold 8 or 9 bases that can be built up to level 8 and 9 airfields. This is what puts you in deep trouble-even if you stall him, he is now embedded in the PI and you will not be able to suppress each and every base that he is building. Eventually he will take total air superiority and with the flood of modern aircraft that he is getting you will be hard pressed to stop him. This is what makes the Allied juggernaut in the late game. If you don't already have a bunch of built up airfields you will never have a chance to out build an Allied player. The quality of your aircraft won't matter if he can "out airbase" you. It takes a tough man to play the Japanese in 1944

You get a lot of credit for your excellent counter attack in the Celebes but let's face it, if Dan wanted to fight you there he could have chosen to do so and would have won given the size of his fleet. But he is a player who is more than willing to sacrifice his queen to achieve his ultimate purpose. Crap, I would hate to play him. I am a good player but I think he is the best active Allied player these days.

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Post #: 2959

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 3:27:15 PM

John 3rd

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CR--I completely concur with you. Dan has improved his play SOOOOOOOOO much over the years. When we started playing each other (10 years ago) I bested him quite frequently. I greatly admire his quanitative improvement. Well done to him!

You are also correct in him allowing my Celebes adventure. It was a choice. I got VP out of it and waylaid a bunch of Allied LCU but what does it matter in the long run? Not a tinkers damn...

Always appreciate you Posts Sir.

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Post #: 2960

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 3:32:02 PM

John 3rd

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April 7, 1944

One would THINK a pair of WWI-Era DDs would get crushed in a surface action these days; however, that is not the case when two old Japanese veteran's enter the waters of Legaspi on April 7th. They find HUGE game in the form of BB North Carolina, a CA, and 8 DDs. Striking hard and fast they hit three American DDs close to 5,000 yards and then hightail it out of there. No DAMAGE!

As they run back towards Jolo for fuel and ammo, they hold off two American air attacks. A feeble CAP of 6 Fighters provides cover against strikes by 23 Fighters--16 Avengers and 6 Fighters--6 Avengers. Surprisingly their luck holds as CAP splashes 9 planes and AA gets a pair. Once again NO DAMAGE. Come on home Senior Citizens of the Japanese Fleet.

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Post #: 2961

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 3:36:26 PM

John 3rd

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Well...damn...if I didn't know what to look for I would have missed this.

OK.

We are now in the Kamikaze business.

Any advice, lessons learned, and/or what to do/not to is very appreciated.

Train to 50+ in Low Nav. Changing settings and beginning search of units for initial volunteers...

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< Message edited by John 3rd -- 1/19/2017 3:37:02 PM >

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RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 3:49:14 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Well...damn...if I didn't know what to look for I would have missed this.

OK.

We are now in the Kamikaze business.

Any advice, lessons learned, and/or what to do/not to is very appreciated.

Train to 50+ in Low Nav. Changing settings and beginning search of units for initial volunteers...

Thanks for being our JFB Guinea Pig, John. Many following this AAR (myself included alas) haven't gotten this far before either.

HOWEVER, I've been told that something that can move fast (evade CAP as much as possible) that carries an 800kg bomb is ideal. Failing that, something that moves fast that can carry 2+ 250kg bombs is pretty good too. What are your antiquated IJAAF pools looking like?

In particular, I'd look at old models of Helens, Sallys, Oscar IIa+ (when they get the 2x250kg payload), Lillys, etc. as some of my first airframes. I'd probably buy out one of the training groups in China for use in the PI. The Oscars would be nice from an AF1 behind the enemy lines in a 'quiet' area of the front where he may overlook CAP on his transport TFs.

I've read AARs wherein large Kamikaze attacks simply gut Allied massed CVEs, so I'm not sure about the 'won't damage anything larger than a DD' comment. Even a BB, afire and damaged, is a 'mission kill'-it will have to go back to a major repair port to get rid of sizable system damage.

Lastly, I would think about combining a kamikaze offensive of several groups with a traditional LBA and KB strike on susceptible shipping in the area.

Right now his defenses on his new beachheads are tenuous and tender. I'd expedite any counterattack and get what you can while you can. Trifling 3xDD and CA+3DD sweeps that net SCs and LCIs are better than nothing, but you've got to pin down and start killing bigger game. And soon.

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RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 3:53:57 PM

Chickenboy

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From your screenshot:

I think you need to switch the training regimen to 'bombs' from torpedoes-otherwise the training will default to NavT. Then train them at 1000 feet, not 20,000 feet for LowNav training to be in effect.

There's no benefit to max training at 21 hexes-that may contribute to unit fatigue and airframe aging. I'd drop this to 0 or 1 range.

Are you sure that you want to use 2E Betties instead of superfluous B5N1s or B5N2s in your IJNAF training regimen?

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RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 4:02:45 PM

ny59giants

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Kamikazes - Look for airframes with the following characteristics - speed, payload, and/or ceiling. Can they get there before being shot down? If they do hit, its with some serious ordnance. Can they fly above most of Allied fighters before they dive to their death?

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Post #: 2965

RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 4:08:05 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

From your screenshot:

I think you need to switch the training regimen to 'bombs' from torpedoes-otherwise the training will default to NavT. Then train them at 1000 feet, not 20,000 feet for LowNav training to be in effect.

There's no benefit to max training at 21 hexes-that may contribute to unit fatigue and airframe aging. I'd drop this to 0 or 1 range.

Are you sure that you want to use 2E Betties instead of superfluous B5N1s or B5N2s in your IJNAF training regimen?

That unit was just an example of finding the actual Kamikaze BUTTON. Just went through the Home Islands writing down a list of units for use and changing them to more appropriate selections.

A couple of weeks ago I bumped Jill and Judy production to add to my current surplus numbers...

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RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 4:08:54 PM

John 3rd

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Keep commenting. Am taking notes and will use tonight's turn for a serious planning turn going through airframes, training, and locations.

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RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 4:14:05 PM

John 3rd

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My initial plan is to create 5-6 units to use as 'decoys' to saturate Dan's CAP and see if we can get any REAL attack aircraft. Better to get organized and strike with MASS then go in piecemeal.

Just checked the reinforcements due in Luzon over the next 3-4 days: 19th ID, 48 ID, and two Brigades.

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RE: April 1944 - 1/19/2017 8:31:13 PM

adarbrauner

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The reinforcements to Luzon are not enough, to say the least, if you wont to fight for it. If he has 4-5 divisions, you need the same number at least. Actually you needed them yesterday.

The idea is not not attack (well in anycase we don't have the force nor shall we have before a week. start move troops fast boy!), but rather to place a stop and a big menace to his contingent.

I fully agree with CRSutton about the immense menace of enemy's potential perspective big airbases.

For this reason I don't agree with chicken boy about the 2nd-3rd importance of the smaller Phillipines Islands, exactly the opposite, they have the same importance of Luzon.

We are out of time a little, because I,understand that there are much unsufficient forces in Philippiones now and in the very short next future (days). a pity, because the absence of Mian American Carrier Fleet cannt be exploited in this sense. Never mind, the islands are so close one to each others, that if we manage to bring close troops in land bases, they could be landed in an overnight .

Barges, many many barges needed. also AKLs. But Commander, you should have already a good number of LST, don't you?

quote:

Lastly, I would think about combining a kamikaze offensive of several groups with a traditional LBA and KB strike on susceptible shipping in the area.

Right now his defenses on his new beachheads are tenuous and tender. I'd expedite any counterattack and get what you can while you can. Trifling 3xDD and CA+3DD sweeps that net SCs and LCIs are better than nothing, but you've got to pin down and start killing bigger game. And soon.

Depends: if Main Carrier Fleet is absent, so yes, very soon, combining surface attacks as well (P.S.: PTs, where?)

(in reply to John 3rd)

Post #: 2969

RE: April 1944 - 1/20/2017 1:19:46 AM

MakeeLearn

Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline

What aerial recon tactics are you conducting?

(in reply to adarbrauner)

Post #: 2970