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RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire!

 
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RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 10:04:29 AM   
kirk23


Posts: 2885
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline 		Yes the lack of capture is a problem,I would like to trigger a capture event when a ships morale drops below a certain level,but how I'm going to get that into the game remains an issue.

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Post #: 121
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 11:13:44 AM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline 		There is no way to event this. It has to be hard coded. A kind of malee order for ships and land units. By the way, there are some other issues that seems to be odd:

1. Actually ships move like motor units. We would need a kind of compass card which indicates the wind direction at the beginnig of a turn (little gamey but it has to be simple). Courses before the wind would then be at maximum speed. In the wind with three-quarter speed and against the wind at half speed.

2. Currently the AI and the game setting provides a "building long frontlines" and "fight to the end and for every town" which is perfect for 1900+ games but odd for more ancient order of battles.

3. In Napoleonic times a lot of small and even major countries changed their status to neutral or even change sides after loosing a main battle or if their capital is endangered. Others have a long struggle. (Spain/Russia) There will be a lot of event work, right?

4. Neutral countries (with a leaning to a major) should permit the passage of other troops. I think this is not possible at the moment.




(in reply to kirk23)
Post #: 122
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 12:24:24 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

A massive counter would distroy the "high sea" feeling and cover too much of the map background...





Agreed, looks better without the coloured background in this style

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Post #: 123
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 12:30:59 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

There is no way to event this. It has to be hard coded. A kind of malee order for ships and land units. By the way, there are some other issues that seems to be odd:

1. Actually ships move like motor units. We would need a kind of compass card which indicates the wind direction at the beginnig of a turn (little gamey but it has to be simple). Courses before the wind would then be at maximum speed. In the wind with three-quarter speed and against the wind at half speed.

2. Currently the AI and the game setting provides a "building long frontlines" and "fight to the end and for every town" which is perfect for 1900+ games but odd for more ancient order of battles.

3. In Napoleonic times a lot of small and even major countries changed their status to neutral or even change sides after loosing a main battle or if their capital is endangered. Others have a long struggle. (Spain/Russia) There will be a lot of event work, right?

4. Neutral countries (with a leaning to a major) should permit the passage of other troops. I think this is not possible at the moment.






Yes, I'm not quite sure how to get round the "building long frontlines" issue, Napoleonic warfare wasn't like that, was more about holding/taking key cities and fortresses and occasional epic pitched battles with the majority of the combatants armies in one place.

BTW partisan activity in Spain and Portugal (and Russia?) should be high - can these places get partisans in occupied areas even if the nations themselves have not surrendered?

There should also be decisions to create new countries, like the Grand Duchy of Warsaw, but I guess this could be handled much like the creation of Croatia is in the vanilla WW2 game.

How will the USA be handled in this game? I assume it would start off with a leaning towards the French?

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Post #: 124
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 1:24:56 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline 		Adjusted the counter borders to the SPIRES colours...




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Post #: 125
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 1:37:21 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Adjusted the counter borders to the SPIRES colours...





That works!

BTW won't the tops of the sails overlap with another counter if there's one above? How's that going to look?

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Post #: 126
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 1:47:02 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


Posts: 825
Joined: 12/11/2001
Status: offline 		Regarding ships of this period I think you should use a different classification instead of rates, as you know for sure only the Royal Navy had 2nd rate ships, and in the third rate are the large 80s and 74s together with the small 74s and 64s, and there was a big difference between a 64 and a an 80s. Then there is the problem of carronades that makes rating even more misleading. Finally, within "frigate" you have everything from the 8pdrs to the 24pdrs "Superfrigates". In all I think your ship classification would benefit from some reconsideration.

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Post #: 127
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 1:52:16 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline 		Like the overlapping of many vanilla 3D units. Since no important unit information is covered there will be no problem, right?




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Post #: 128
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 1:54:36 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

Regarding ships of this period I think you should use a different classification instead of rates, as you know for sure only the Royal Navy had 2nd rate ships, and in the third rate are the large 80s and 74s together with the small 74s and 64s, and there was a big difference between a 64 and a an 80s. Then there is the problem of carronades that makes rating even more misleading. Finally, within "frigate" you have everything from the 8pdrs to the 24pdrs "Superfrigates". In all I think your ship classification would benefit from some reconsideration.


Yes, but you could make it so that only the British could build second rates?

The frigates issue is perhaps significant, e.g. the American heavy frigates were the pocket battlecruisers of the day, though perhaps it would be sufficient to have two classes of frigates, with only the USA being able to build heavy frigates, at least until later in the war


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Post #: 129
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 1:58:11 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		BTW what time period will the game cover? Will it start as early as 1792, or not until 1803 or even 1805? I'd be fine with it starting in 1803 or even 1805

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Wars

Will there be just one campaign or multiple entry points e.g. 1792, 1803, 1805, 1812 etc.?

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Post #: 130
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 2:00:31 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Like the overlapping of many vanilla 3D units. Since no important unit information is covered there will be no problem, right?





I still think it doesn't look quite right, would prefer the ship image to be a little smaller to fit in hex

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Post #: 131
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 2:03:59 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

Regarding ships of this period I think you should use a different classification instead of rates, as you know for sure only the Royal Navy had 2nd rate ships, and in the third rate are the large 80s and 74s together with the small 74s and 64s, and there was a big difference between a 64 and a an 80s. Then there is the problem of carronades that makes rating even more misleading. Finally, within "frigate" you have everything from the 8pdrs to the 24pdrs "Superfrigates". In all I think your ship classification would benefit from some reconsideration.

First, I'm only a unit helper. Kirk is the mod creator. You are of course right for your information. But I think there must be some compromises in the sense of clarity and simplification. The vanilla game does it and take the German order of battle as a frame for (nearly) all countries. So I believe Kirk take the French OOB for land units and the British OOB for naval units. This is just as comprehensible for this epoch, as well as for the possibilities of the game engine makes sense. Hope this will help.

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Post #: 132
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 2:22:41 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oxford_guy


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Like the overlapping of many vanilla 3D units. Since no important unit information is covered there will be no problem, right?





I still think it doesn't look quite right, would prefer the ship image to be a little smaller to fit in hex

Really, oxford_guy?
If I was a developer, I would make the "Rate" plate permanently in the foreground. The proportions of the ships are required for graphic reasons. I think a compromise to be coped with. Nevertheless, you are welcome to post a counter-draft. Kirk will eventually decide what he wants to see in his mod.


(in reply to OxfordGuy3)
Post #: 133
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 2:38:22 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield


quote:

ORIGINAL: oxford_guy


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Like the overlapping of many vanilla 3D units. Since no important unit information is covered there will be no problem, right?





I still think it doesn't look quite right, would prefer the ship image to be a little smaller to fit in hex

Really, oxford_guy?
If I was a developer, I would make the "Rate" plate permanently in the foreground. The proportions of the ships are required for graphic reasons. I think a compromise to be coped with. Nevertheless, you are welcome to post a counter-draft. Kirk will eventually decide what he wants to see in his mod.




That would be a better solution than current, just looks a bit messy as is with the overlap, but I know what you mean about having the larger ship proportions

(in reply to TheBattlefield)
Post #: 134
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 3:12:19 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline 		Ok, before I continue I would like a boss decision. Kirk? SPIRES?
The British ship has a transparency. The Frech one has a sub counter cut. The Ottoman has a counter cut. Which variant should it be?




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Post #: 135
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 3:15:31 PM   
kirk23


Posts: 2885
Joined: 10/15/2010
From: Fife Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Ok, before I continue I would like a boss decision. Kirk? SPIRES?
The British ship has a transparency. The Frech one has a sub counter cut. The Ottoman has a counter cut. Which variant should it be?





My vote is for British ship has a transparency.

_____________________________

Make it so!

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Post #: 136
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 3:19:51 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline 		Aye, Sir!

(in reply to kirk23)
Post #: 137
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 3:24:42 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Ok, before I continue I would like a boss decision. Kirk? SPIRES?
The British ship has a transparency. The Frech one has a sub counter cut. The Ottoman has a counter cut. Which variant should it be?





My vote is for British ship has a transparency.


I know I'm not Kirk or Spires, but my vote would be for transparency, but with the unit above taking precedence, so that the rate text is always in front of the top of the ship masts - would that be feasible and, if so, could you show an example of how that would look? It might look rubbish in practice, though, so think we need to see. Thanks!

(in reply to kirk23)
Post #: 138
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 4:04:39 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield


quote:

ORIGINAL: oxford_guy


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Like the overlapping of many vanilla 3D units. Since no important unit information is covered there will be no problem, right?



I still think it doesn't look quite right, would prefer the ship image to be a little smaller to fit in hex

Really, oxford_guy?
If I was a developer, I would make the "Rate" plate permanently in the foreground. The proportions of the ships are required for graphic reasons. I think a compromise to be coped with. Nevertheless, you are welcome to post a counter-draft. Kirk will eventually decide what he wants to see in his mod.


As I said, if I were a developer...
This behavior is hard coded. But if you know a getting round, please show me...

(in reply to TheBattlefield)
Post #: 139
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 4:59:53 PM   
SIPRES


Posts: 398
Joined: 7/23/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Ok, before I continue I would like a boss decision. Kirk? SPIRES?
The British ship has a transparency. The Frech one has a sub counter cut. The Ottoman has a counter cut. Which variant should it be?





Yep the british definitely
Sorry I was away few days, sounds like I miss many post
After for the national color, what about using the "1st rate panel" background as a national color?
Or something similar to what I did on my WW2 MOD for battleships.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 140
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 5:02:59 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SIPRES


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

Ok, before I continue I would like a boss decision. Kirk? SPIRES?
The British ship has a transparency. The Frech one has a sub counter cut. The Ottoman has a counter cut. Which variant should it be?





Yep the british definitely
Sorry I was away few days, sounds like I miss many post
After for the national color, what about using the "1st rate panel" background as a national color?
Or something similar to what I did on my WW2 MOD for battleships.





I like that idea!

(in reply to SIPRES)
Post #: 141
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 5:12:31 PM   
SIPRES


Posts: 398
Joined: 7/23/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

I think it will fit better.

Perhaps we also need a few contemporary fortresses. SIPRES has a skilled hand...







Your not that bad also for graphics handling.
Could you prepare any Map Napoleonic enhancement for us (If Kirk do agree)
I would be disapointed to see some Russian Sapeur building Concrete bunkers instead of Fleches redoubt.
I think Harbors should deserves some retouch also, and certainly many other items


(in reply to TheBattlefield)
Post #: 142
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 5:32:30 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


Posts: 825
Joined: 12/11/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

Regarding ships of this period I think you should use a different classification instead of rates, as you know for sure only the Royal Navy had 2nd rate ships, and in the third rate are the large 80s and 74s together with the small 74s and 64s, and there was a big difference between a 64 and a an 80s. Then there is the problem of carronades that makes rating even more misleading. Finally, within "frigate" you have everything from the 8pdrs to the 24pdrs "Superfrigates". In all I think your ship classification would benefit from some reconsideration.

First, I'm only a unit helper. Kirk is the mod creator. You are of course right for your information. But I think there must be some compromises in the sense of clarity and simplification. The vanilla game does it and take the German order of battle as a frame for (nearly) all countries. So I believe Kirk take the French OOB for land units and the British OOB for naval units. This is just as comprehensible for this epoch, as well as for the possibilities of the game engine makes sense. Hope this will help.

I agree, but at the same time, since this is a mod, I think some historical flavour would be good, without really compromising clarity. A classification by guns instead of rates would be very clear and better adapted to minor maritime powers. Just my opinion.

(in reply to TheBattlefield)
Post #: 143
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 5:41:24 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


Posts: 825
Joined: 12/11/2001
Status: offline 		Regarding game scale, I think it is impossible to do a Napoleonic strategic mod with the SC engine, but I think individual campaigns are doable. I recall there was a FrancoPrussian war scenario for SC2 that could serve as a model. I myself did 2 Napoleonic scenarios for TOAW XIX century game, Prussia 1807 and a Germany 1813 campaign starting after the truce.
IMO something like a 5Km/hex/Division/week turns for the 1813 scenario or something like 1Km/hex/brigade/half week turns is doable, but not a long game covering several years.

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Post #: 144
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 5:53:16 PM   
OxfordGuy3


Posts: 1041
Joined: 7/1/2012
From: Oxford, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBattlefield

I think it will fit better.

Perhaps we also need a few contemporary fortresses. SIPRES has a skilled hand...







BTW I think this graphic style for the ships works, but for land units I want counters...

(in reply to TheBattlefield)
Post #: 145
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 6:02:20 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline 		Sail away...




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Post #: 146
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 6:12:32 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

Regarding game scale, I think it is impossible to do a Napoleonic strategic mod with the SC engine, but I think individual campaigns are doable. I recall there was a FrancoPrussian war scenario for SC2 that could serve as a model. I myself did 2 Napoleonic scenarios for TOAW XIX century game, Prussia 1807 and a Germany 1813 campaign starting after the truce.
IMO something like a 5Km/hex/Division/week turns for the 1813 scenario or something like 1Km/hex/brigade/half week turns is doable, but not a long game covering several years.

Unfortunately there is a little bit of truth there. I hate to say these words, but antiqe (turn) strategy games at a global level need unit stacking and zone of control for land and sea areas. But maybe with some compromises we manage a playable multiplayer mod. Or something more...we will see.

(in reply to Iñaki Harrizabalagatar)
Post #: 147
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 6:35:23 PM   
SIPRES


Posts: 398
Joined: 7/23/2015
Status: offline 		Some Schwarzenberg friends






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Post #: 148
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 8:55:12 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SIPRES

Some Schwarzenberg friends







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Post #: 149
RE: The Rise and Fall Of An Empire! - 1/22/2017 10:13:35 PM   
daon

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 12/19/2016
Status: offline 		Yes you can do this in the form of campaigns that follow
And players can discuss peace treaties
Campaigns are prepared in advance and adapted as needed ( with the editor) based on the result of the previous campaign, so alliances and neutrals can be changed .
You can even draw random events between campaigns

< Message edited by daon -- 1/22/2017 10:16:41 PM >

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Post #: 150
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