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Old and Overwhelmed - 2/2/2017 11:02:24 PM

AnalogGamer

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Greetings all,

Too many choices for my old mind to handle so I turn to those in the know for some advice.

quick history for context... 55 years old. Been playing strategy games since 12. Stratego, straight to Avalon Hill. PC gaming includes Panzer Corp, and many Battlefront games such as the Combat Mission series.

I am looking for a PC game that is close as possible to the old Avalon Hill title... "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". To be able to play all of WW2 through at the strategic level without my cat running across the map even once would be a novel experience indeed.

Any pointers or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your attention and may your rounds never fall short.

Post #: 1

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/2/2017 11:30:25 PM

sullafelix

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I would say 'Strategic Command WWII War in Europe' should come closest to fit the bill.

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RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 12:23:17 AM

Ranger33

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I would second Strategic Command. I've only played the WW1 version, but it's a great series. Fairly easy to get into and play, but still has a ton of depth.

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Post #: 3

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 12:36:24 AM

balto

Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
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3rd Reich, memories. Best AH game I played.., back in the day. SC 2 is the way to go as was stated above; its solid, the gist of how it works is easy, and it is relatively intuitive. You cannot lose with this.

But the better game is Hearts of Iron 4. The problem is, I look at your palette of PC games and they seem to be easy to get into - which is great, it really is. HOI 4 takes a lot of reading and a lot of practice to get into. It has a huge following, a large and great Forum, and massive developer support -- so you will never be alone.

If I am reading you wrong and you want to ratchet up the complexity, HOI 4 is where its at when you bring up the similarity to 3rd Reich.

< Message edited by balto -- 2/3/2017 12:40:12 AM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 1:47:15 AM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
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I would second Strategic Command 3 WW2. But the most complex and involving game at this scale imo would be Hearts of Iron 3 with the BLACKICE mod. It can also be had fairly cheap if you keep an eye out for Steam sales.

I've enjoyed 100+ hours in HOI4, but am waiting (and hoping) for further AI improvements.

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Post #: 5

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 5:45:26 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnalogGamer

Greetings all,

Too many choices for my old mind to handle so I turn to those in the know for some advice.

quick history for context... 55 years old. Been playing strategy games since 12. Stratego, straight to Avalon Hill. PC gaming includes Panzer Corp, and many Battlefront games such as the Combat Mission series.

I am looking for a PC game that is close as possible to the old Avalon Hill title... "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". To be able to play all of WW2 through at the strategic level without my cat running across the map even once would be a novel experience indeed.

Any pointers or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your attention and may your rounds never fall short.

warspite1

Hi AnalogGamer. So long as you don't need an AI, if you want to play the entire war then Matrix World In Flames may be the game for you. However, a word of warning, I would check out the World In Flames forum first as the game does have issues.

As you will see from the forum, there are plenty of multiplayer AAR's going on and netplay is being tested at present. The game is not yet the finished article, but as its the best war game ever made - I played AH 3rd Reich and World In Flames beat it hands down imo - for some people its worth a bit of pain just to be playing this incredible game again. The game is a faithful reproduction of the board game (minimal changes only) and so as an ex-board game player you may appreciate that.

If you are happy with ETO alone then, as said above, Strategic Command is a fun game, although multiplayer is not available yet (but does have an AI).

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=110

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Post #: 6

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 9:03:13 AM

AnalogGamer

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Thank you all for such prompt and helpful advice. I was looking at Strategic Command, but it is not world-wide. Will look into Hearts of Iron next, as I am a complexity junkie if the subject matter grabs me(asberger's laser-like focus). After years of small-unit play(Combat Mission etc.), I would like to take over the whole magilla again. Economy, industry, research "the Bomb", Strategic choices, the whole 9 yards for the whole world from '39 to '46.

I would prefer an AI, at least during my learning curve, so as not to frustrate other players. These games take an investment in time and effort that should be respected by all parties involved, so being the newb at the table is not my cup of tea.

The epic quest continues... Thanks again all.

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Post #: 7

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 9:26:23 AM

Greybriar

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Welcome to the forum, AnalogGamer.

Good luck finding a game that compares to Avalon Hill's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. Let us know what you come up with.

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Post #: 8

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 1:41:23 PM

balto

Posts: 1123
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From: Maryland
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Analog. If you go the HOI 4 route select Italy, start it at 1936, and UNCHECK Historical (this will make sense when you fire it up). Do not build up your African possessions, just hold on to them by sitting in the ports. ASAP, attack Yugo and Greece and then wing it by considering to do a combination of attacking France and Egypt when Germany declares, or attacking Turkey (if Germany does not declare against France). Look at your tech tree go right for the OIL research in Libya. Lastly when the Spanish civil war starts, jump in with whatever armor you are allowed (game tells you the limit) and just mess around over there until it ends. That's it.

You do not have to follow this religiously, but Italy is the easiest to deal with because their empire is not spread over the globe and she does not have any powerful enemies until Germany declares war so you can screw up a lot. By the time Germany starts the war, you will have a much better grasp of how things work, and you can ALWAYS restart.

PS - do not F with the british navy, despite what the numbers on the counters say - they will crush you. Hide your navy and wait for some sort of opportunity to do something.., maybe.

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Post #: 9

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 2:18:12 PM

Erik Rutins

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Yes, definitely grab Strategic Command, that would be the closest to 3R with an AI and also a very recent release technology-wise.

I would also suggest the older Gary Grigsby's A World Divided (for a global game that is similar to A&A on steroids) and Commander: Europe at War after that. If you are willing to deal with a huge learning curve and no AI (as yet) but fantastic gameplay there is also World in Flames, which is the ultimate global WW2 game, but not for the faint of heart. Also, for covering the Pacific side of the war, you still can't beat War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 10

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 3:13:56 PM

JReb

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HOI3 is better than HOI4 IMHO. If you want open sandbox with historical flavor and complexity, HOI3 is the way to go. Everything from politics to spies to setting the type of govt you want your conquered enemies to have is in there and a lot more.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/214986/?snr=1_7_7_151_150_1

Its only $9.99, but fair warning, its intense.

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Post #: 11

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 4:45:25 PM

HudsonGame

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Old. lol. Just a little kid. I am 63, and I too played the old Avalon Hill, GDW, SPI, WWW games (among many others) starting in the mid/late 1960s. For strategic World War II I like the Paradox game Hearts of Iron III (tried IV, but I don't think it is an improvement over III). Thought I would give you my two cents.

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Post #: 12

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 5:45:39 PM

balto

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If you do go HOI 4, another way to ease yourself in is to be Japan. Deal with the Chinese, then go for Russia ASAP. US will not bother you for a very very long time. Same deal here, your forces are not spread over the globe (like Italy), and you can focus on the mechanics. When you start messing with Russia on its Eastern border, that allows the German AI to better deal with all it has to deal with.., so can really stretch out the game play for a long time and try all kinds of goofy stuff (conquer Russia or roll into India, whatever).

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Post #: 13

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/3/2017 6:01:38 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnalogGamer
I am looking for a PC game that is close as possible to the old Avalon Hill title... "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". To be able to play all of WW2 through at the strategic level without my cat running across the map even once would be a novel experience indeed.

Please check out my Advanced Third Reich mod AAR for Strategic Command.

I posted the files but unfortunately there is some graphics bug that I need to find and fix, and I will get back to that once the Strategic Command update is done and I get the Empires in Arms update officially released one of these days.

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Post #: 14

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/4/2017 3:29:10 PM

AnalogGamer

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Thanks again for all the great input folks. I have been looking around and seem to be narrowing down to Hearts of Iron 3, possibly with mods. World in Flames looked like Rise and Fall with more work. :) Trading the cat running across my game pieces for mind-numbing accountant work is not in the cards. A World Divided looked nice, but a tad dated. Strategic Command didn't cover enough, but looked liked a great game to play.

I am not an early-adopter any more. Let those with quicker wits than mine engage in improving HOI4. It has also been my experience that, sometimes, older versions of games have content that I prefer which is no longer present in newer iterations. The little men and tanks on the screenshots almost sent me running from HOI. Then I watched a YouTube video with NATO markers and calmed down. That was close.

While I certainly appreciate the very helpful tips on playing the "lesser" nations( :) ), in every strategic WW2 game I have ever played there can be only one choice for me. Germany has won before under my leadership, and she shall do so again. The vehicle in which I make the journey is the only question. I am prepared for "Field Marshal Winter". Works by Erhard Raus are on my bookshelf along with Guderian and many others. It is amazing how well Sun Tzu's "Nine Terrains" translates into PC simulations of strategic combat of any kind. I will over-extend the first few games and the AI will teach me my limitations within the environment. I go down swinging, because all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again. :)

Once I get my feet under me, I will look for opponents. Thanks all, and see you on the field.

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Post #: 15

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/5/2017 5:39:29 AM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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Further to what Warspite has written, Matrix World in Flames (MWiF) is planned to have an AI. It's just that the developer Steve is very disciplined about his task list.

Many people don't think a decent AI for MWiF can be written but I have a computing/maths degree with an emphasis on AI and I disagree with them. Note: MWiF is based on the Australian Design Group boardgame World in Flames, which has been around in several forms since the mid-80s.

1. Steve is an AI expert and an experienced player.
2. He originally took on the project with the express purpose of writing an AI for MWiF.
3. There is a large base of World in Flames experts who have provided input on strategies.
4. A tremendous amount of work has already been done on it, including a kind of computer language Steve has written.
5. He's a very determined character who has been on this project since 2003.

Furthermore, an AI doesn't have to be brilliant for this game. It really only needs to be good enough to teach beginners and give good players a solid game. Expert players will play each other.

Additionally, optional rules can be selected to favour either the Axis or Allies. Also, the game is so complex that a human is likely to miss something, somewhere. Just as a chess computer will punish a novice who makes a silly mistake, the AI won't miss an opportunity to make an unwary opponent pay.

So it would pay to check its forum every now and again to check on the progress of the game, but I wouldn't expect and AI for at least a year.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 16

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/5/2017 5:45:47 AM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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As you like detail, you might like some screenshots...

Cheers, Neilster

Attachment (3)

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Post #: 17

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/5/2017 5:47:03 AM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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A few more...the global map is the actual size of the map in the game. You can buy the physical version as an optional purchase with the game. I did

Cheers, Neilster

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< Message edited by Neilster -- 2/5/2017 5:49:17 AM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/5/2017 5:55:33 AM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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The black lines in the first image are sea areas. Naval action is abstracted in MWiF and the naval model is one of the best parts of the game. It's very subtle and captures the somewhat random, hit-or-miss nature of the war at sea then.

I made my avatar by adding polar areas to the game map, making 59 spherical versions of that rotated 5 degrees apart and then animating them as a GIF.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 19

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/5/2017 2:27:41 PM

AnalogGamer

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Joined: 2/2/2017
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Thanks for all that folks. Great info and makes me very hopeful for the future. I have World in Flames bookmarked and will keep tabs on it. I went ahead and got the vanilla version of Hearts of Iron III for ten bucks on steam to get me back into strategic warfare. If this turns out well, I will upgrade and mod it while other games get their finishing touches applied.

I am spending the next week watching YouTube videos and studying the UI. Germany in '36 is my place and time. I am letting the Ai start the game... then pausing and looking at everything it does and why. Immersion to the lowest level is giving me the gestalt of the entire concept. The second-order effects of certain researches for future advantage, and follow-on effects from certain decisions is what I am trying to get a handle on. Germany needs to tech up and increase its efficiencies to be able to take on the Bear in '41. Five years to prepare is pushing it, but I will find a way.

I am hoping to use a semi-Soviet approach for my land formations. Category A, B and C formations. My A's are the tip of the spear who kick the enemy into the next time zone. They are what I am planning for now in 1936 to be built in 1940. They will have the best, and be properly supported, but small in number. B's are flank security, reserves and follow-on. C's are the garrison and line-holders for the ever-expanding front. Punch, encircle, lather, rinse, repeat... until the fall Rasputitsa. Everything I do from 1936 on is preparing for the winter of '41-'42 on the Eastern Front, and the big push of '42. Everything about my Reich needs to peak then. I think I can handle the rest (U.K., keeping the Amis at bay, etc.) from "mental muscle memory" if the simulation is as true as it seems to be so far. If I can find a way to delay until the spring of '42 while retaining a tech and strategic advantage, then all the better. If there is a way to get the Japanese to invade Russia with me I hope to find it. Maybe give them radar or something if the game allows.

Intelligence and Diplomacy now are where I am trying to find the levers to get my advantages for later. I want befuddled, ambivalent Americans and clueless, ill-equipped Soviets. I hope to be able to spend considerable playing time in these areas early, for good effects when it matters.

The Brits will hopefully rot on the vine because I will attempt to use the KM properly. :) If I can take Iceland along with Norway... buh-bye England. No need to invade, or waste the Luftwaffe. Just gnaw on whatever they send across the channel. The Kammhuber Line will be in place early and in depth. My 88mm batteries will multiply like a virus across Western Europe, around every strategic target. I don't need ME-262s, just something serviceable for defense.

This is what I like about these sims. Remove the egos, wacko personalities, and outright evil, at the top and Germany can do this. Find the "sweet spot" in tech, then version freeze and build the crap out of it. Economies of scale by '41-'42 is my goal. The Gestapo is replaced by The Department of Human Resources, and ensures all occupied areas have basic human needs met, and are kept productive. My goal is zero uprisings, and minimal/temporary disruptions due to civil unrest. It remains tobe seen if I can accomplish this. :)

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Post #: 20

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/6/2017 12:37:42 AM

JReb

Posts: 459
Joined: 9/18/2002
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You might want to register over at Paradox' HOI3 forum. There are some real helpful guys that will answer all your questions, probably in more detail than you want! I am fairly new to the game myself and have over 150 hrs logged in and I am still learning new things.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?forums/hearts-of-iron-3.415/

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Post #: 21

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/6/2017 2:44:46 AM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnalogGamer

Thanks for all that folks. Great info and makes me very hopeful for the future. I have World in Flames bookmarked and will keep tabs on it. I went ahead and got the vanilla version of Hearts of Iron III for ten bucks on steam to get me back into strategic warfare. If this turns out well, I will upgrade and mod it while other games get their finishing touches applied.

I am spending the next week watching YouTube videos and studying the UI. Germany in '36 is my place and time. I am letting the Ai start the game... then pausing and looking at everything it does and why. Immersion to the lowest level is giving me the gestalt of the entire concept. The second-order effects of certain researches for future advantage, and follow-on effects from certain decisions is what I am trying to get a handle on. Germany needs to tech up and increase its efficiencies to be able to take on the Bear in '41. Five years to prepare is pushing it, but I will find a way.

I am hoping to use a semi-Soviet approach for my land formations. Category A, B and C formations. My A's are the tip of the spear who kick the enemy into the next time zone. They are what I am planning for now in 1936 to be built in 1940. They will have the best, and be properly supported, but small in number. B's are flank security, reserves and follow-on. C's are the garrison and line-holders for the ever-expanding front. Punch, encircle, lather, rinse, repeat... until the fall Rasputitsa. Everything I do from 1936 on is preparing for the winter of '41-'42 on the Eastern Front, and the big push of '42. Everything about my Reich needs to peak then. I think I can handle the rest (U.K., keeping the Amis at bay, etc.) from "mental muscle memory" if the simulation is as true as it seems to be so far. If I can find a way to delay until the spring of '42 while retaining a tech and strategic advantage, then all the better. If there is a way to get the Japanese to invade Russia with me I hope to find it. Maybe give them radar or something if the game allows.

Intelligence and Diplomacy now are where I am trying to find the levers to get my advantages for later. I want befuddled, ambivalent Americans and clueless, ill-equipped Soviets. I hope to be able to spend considerable playing time in these areas early, for good effects when it matters.

The Brits will hopefully rot on the vine because I will attempt to use the KM properly. :) If I can take Iceland along with Norway... buh-bye England. No need to invade, or waste the Luftwaffe. Just gnaw on whatever they send across the channel. The Kammhuber Line will be in place early and in depth. My 88mm batteries will multiply like a virus across Western Europe, around every strategic target. I don't need ME-262s, just something serviceable for defense.

This is what I like about these sims. Remove the egos, wacko personalities, and outright evil, at the top and Germany can do this. Find the "sweet spot" in tech, then version freeze and build the crap out of it. Economies of scale by '41-'42 is my goal. The Gestapo is replaced by The Department of Human Resources, and ensures all occupied areas have basic human needs met, and are kept productive. My goal is zero uprisings, and minimal/temporary disruptions due to civil unrest. It remains tobe seen if I can accomplish this. :)

Re playing Germany logically, I remember many years ago when all those civilisation building games had just come out and were huge, I said to my brother, "There should be a simReich, where you could run the German war effort logically. Keep that Italian clown in check, no ridiculous 'stand fast' orders and obviously begin a vast and truly well organised slave labour program early"

If you're interested, the MWiF tutorials are here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQkQv9Xhx2Y&list=PLk5K-IfEIqTtlqaAQfETz-2oZSJD3fs-C

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 22

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/8/2017 12:16:32 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

Oh...I forgot this bit. Not long after I jokingly suggested a simReich game, The Simpsons episode "Marge be Not Proud" aired here in Australia. In it, Bart is obsessed with a new computer game called Bonestorm and ends up shoplifting it. Have a look at the game bottom right

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 23

RE: Old and Overwhelmed - 2/8/2017 1:54:49 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

Oh...I forgot this bit. Not long after I jokingly suggested a simReich game, The Simpsons episode "Marge be Not Proud" aired here in Australia. In it, Bart is obsessed with a new computer game called Bonestorm and ends up shoplifting it. Have a look at the game bottom right

Cheers, Neilster

Mate, just admit that is was really "Canasta Master" (top center right) that you *really* had the idea for originally.

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