Which weapon for which target?

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Which weapon for which target? - 2/9/2017 3:32:16 PM

Rangoon

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/25/2013
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Is there an established method for determining a good weapon-for-target match (esp. ground attack)? I have been simply trying to match damage points from the database. I know there are other factors, such as hardened vs. soft structures, etc., but are there a few guidelines or methods that really pay off in planning efficiency and actual efficacy? Is there much variability to the damage a weapon does? Or are the points in the database the points that weapon will always cause?

Of course what I want to avoid are:
1. overkill, using a weapon overpowered or too unnecessarily advanced to hit a particular target
2. ineffectiveness due to insufficient damage (or probability of damage)
3. ineffectiveness due to wrong weapon type for target type

I'm guessing an actual commander would be surrounded by experts who specialize in this sort of thing, but my dog can't seem to contribute meaningfully despite all of my encouragement.

Post #: 1

RE: Which weapon for which target? - 2/9/2017 3:43:42 PM

Cik

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Joined: 10/5/2016
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there are certain weapons that deal much-increased damage to certain target types; a BLU-107 durandal vs. it's intended target (runway / taxiway segments) is far more effective against those very specific targets than against a tank (where it would be all but useless) these are sort of exceptions though, as far as i know; otherwise DPs exceeding life means dead thing, for the most part.

i don't really have a system set up for this, but for the most part if you are attacking distinct units (rather than structures, like airfields, bases, etc) one hit of a missile or bomb is enough. maybe two or three for heavy ships.

one AGM-65 maverick is one dead tank
one AA missile is one dead plane
one 2000 pound bomb is a dead building
two or three ASMs is a reliably dead ship (almost regardless of size)

granted you usually shoot more, to deal with evasion% chances, anti-missile defenses, or other things. but if we're just talking hits don't feel the need to really slam a ton of ordnance into something. one close hit with a guided weapon of an appropriate size is usually enough.

of course, that assumes we're talking 1990+ if we're talking 1960 then better to drop 50 bombs to kill a tank because you may need to.

runways are their own ball of wax of course. they require either some extremely dedicated saturation or specialized anti-runway weapons such as the durandal.

anyway if you want more dedicated help, specify what era you're in and what you're having trouble with. with more specifics maybe i can be of more use.

edit: i guess i should directly answer the question. i determine what would be a good weapon to use just by knowing what weapon i'd use in games i trust to be a relatively accurate modelling of reality; if you fire a maverick at a tank in another sim that represents reality and it blows up, you can be pretty sure that command, which accurately represents reality will also have the tank blow up. but that's not helpful, i realize. sorry.

< Message edited by Cik -- 2/9/2017 3:46:40 PM >

(in reply to Rangoon)

Post #: 2

RE: Which weapon for which target? - 2/9/2017 5:50:36 PM

Rangoon

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/25/2013
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Thanks, Cik - that actually does help a lot.

Specifically, as I keep working through the tutorials, and I am practicing a lot with the air tutorial (just getting faster at logistical things like planning, assigning, modifying with F2 and F3 menus, etc.), I keep trying to better predict my overall score by increasing efficieny/efficacy of weapons and distributing them for maximum effectiveness. Not that the score itself matters, or that it's even realistic to achieve pefection in something like this, but it's a good exercise to learn this topic among others.

So, specifically, here's what I'm trying this time: does it make sense?

1) I have my SEAD patrol set up so their Shrikes and CBUs can usually take care of all anti-air threats. I can retask if necessary. I usually keep my Mk82s in a lag so there is some time to react to that.
2) Walleyes/2000lb (x8) are going to the fuel bunkers (x3). I figure they must be worth something and will take some accurate, heavy pounding to destroy
3) LGBs/2000lb (x16) are going to the primary target bulidings (industrial site and missile assembly site) because one bomb should take out one building, with some extra coverage for malfunctions etc.
4) I have plenty of guns to hit the strafing target as tasks are comleted
5) Mk82s I'm not too sure about, but I guess I'm torn between the aircraft shelters, the runway access points, the tarmac areas, and the bulls-eye target. So I'll distribute around

So a few questions I have:
1) Anything stand out about the above as being wrong (especially in a way that will affect "real" scenarios I work on after tutorials) - i.e., problems with my logic?
2) Are Mk82s best used like one aircraft load per building vs. distributing (AI) amongst a cluster of buildings?
3) Are Walleyes a waste against fuel bunkers? Should they be used against buildings? Against SAM radars?
4) Should I use LGBs for the runway access points instead of buildings?

And in general, I'm assingning these as strike missions, with each mission being limited to a certain cluster of buildings, usually a small, focused number of targets. I'm then assigning aircraft to these missions and letting AI sort out the rest. Should I be manually assigning aircraft to specific targets and/or manually assigning 4 Mk82s here, 2 CBUs there, and 2 LGBs over here?

(in reply to Cik)

Post #: 3

RE: Which weapon for which target? - 2/9/2017 6:52:38 PM

Cik

Posts: 671
Joined: 10/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rangoon

1) I have my SEAD patrol set up so their Shrikes and CBUs can usually take care of all anti-air threats. I can retask if necessary. I usually keep my Mk82s in a lag so there is some time to react to that.

right. I would keep everything in trail of SEAD, and for the most part this is wise practice in most scenarios. you have 2x OECM aircraft; you can launch these as well and send them in with the SEAD to degrade enemy ability to return fire.

quote:

2) Walleyes/2000lb (x8) are going to the fuel bunkers (x3). I figure they must be worth something and will take some accurate, heavy pounding to destroy

after a little testing, they definitely do take some punishment. at least 3(!) walleyes as far as i can tell, and about the same number of GBU-10s. GBUs or walleyes both work for these, it's about the same effectiveness as far as i can tell, and the greater standoff range of the walleyes is no factor (but may be in another scenario)

quote:

3) LGBs/2000lb (x16) are going to the primary target bulidings (industrial site and missile assembly site) because one bomb should take out one building, with some extra coverage for malfunctions etc.
4) I have plenty of guns to hit the strafing target as tasks are completed

seems fine. you could also use the 2000lb GBU-10 on most of the runway structures (including fuel bunkers, hangars, runway segments/taxiway segments etc.) they should be moderately effective there too. but buildings aren't poor targets either. in general, strafing might be useful against most soft targets. it's dangerous, but most aircraft have a decent amount of gun ammunition that just goes to waste otherwise. granted, i wouldn't recommend it in most scenarios, due to the inherent danger, low altitude requirement, high fuel use, exposure to hard-to-find SHORAD units, etc. but in this it's pretty safe.

quote:

5) Mk82s I'm not too sure about, but I guess I'm torn between the aircraft shelters, the runway access points, the tarmac areas, and the bulls-eye target. So I'll distribute around

mk82s are very general purpose. the upside is that you can carry quite a few. the downside is that they tend to mostly hit either side of the target. they're dropped in "ripples" or "sticks" which means that most of them are going to hit before or after the target; which isn't so bad as long as you align your initial point with a runway, row of hangars, or other long world objects. unfortunately though, they are pretty out of place in this scenario; there is nothing really to hit that they will effect much. most of the runway structures are very resilient, and many of the other targets while less so are very small and difficult to hit. i dumped mine in a line down the row of hangars, bunkers and runway segments, hoping for a fire. they didn't achieve one though and i bet that's pretty typical. for the most part I'd abstain from using mk82-sized bombs against runways. it won't effect much and risks a great deal of your aircraft on a low-level, vulnerable ingress to a usually difficult-to-scout area.

quote:

1) Anything stand out about the above as being wrong (especially in a way that will affect "real" scenarios I work on after tutorials) - i.e., problems with my logic?

nah. seems pretty sound all around.

quote:

2) Are Mk82s best used like one aircraft load per building vs. distributing (AI) amongst a cluster of buildings?

personally i usually use them in attacks against large numbers of very soft targets (infantry, light vehicles, un-reinforced structures that either cover a wide area or are very vulnerable to frag) against hardened buildings they are mostly a wash, save perhaps if dropped in extreme numbers against a very wide target. the results of mk82 in this scenario would probably be different, if instead of corsairs you had stratofortresses.

quote:

3) Are Walleyes a waste against fuel bunkers? Should they be used against buildings? Against SAM radars?

the walleyes in this scenario are the really heavy kind. the bunkers in this scenario are very heavily armored, so they are not a waste; on much thinner skinned fuel tanks however, they may be. personally, i use walleyes as a stand-off CAS/AI weapon to destroy non-emitting parts of SAM battalions, or structures. however, if a walleye is all you have, it's better to use walleyes against SAM radars than to try to fly right over the top of one with CBU/mk82.

quote:

4) Should I use LGBs for the runway access points instead of buildings?

you can. this training mission is a little light on context; in another mission, it would depend on scoring, or the comparative benefits of knocking out a runway (and thus preventing red air from bothering you) vs. attacking more important targets. they will do the job, but you will need a decent number of them.

quote:

And in general, I'm assigning these as strike missions, with each mission being limited to a certain cluster of buildings, usually a small, focused number of targets. I'm then assigning aircraft to these missions and letting AI sort out the rest. Should I be manually assigning aircraft to specific targets and/or manually assigning 4 Mk82s here, 2 CBUs there, and 2 LGBs over here?

right. you're doing it correctly. for the most part, it's better to plan a larger number of smaller strike missions than to plan one all-inclusive one against multiple, widely-spread targets. with several strikes, your aircraft will keep a tighter formation with any escorts, allocate weapons better, and just generally be more cohesive. i generally allow the AI to do most of the work, but you can micro as much as you like. i know there are people on this forum who enjoy that more or less. i micro only if my units are doing something "unrealistic" that is, if the AI is causing them to behave irrationally or suicidally. also, i will occasionally set up custom initial points so that my forces utilize dumb bombs as they would in real life (along an optimal attack vector) other than that though, i just set up the dominoes for the AI and let the chips fall where they may. it's up to every individual how much micro they want to put in, and some situations require it more or less than others.

< Message edited by Cik -- 2/9/2017 7:01:02 PM >

(in reply to Rangoon)

Post #: 4

RE: Which weapon for which target? - 2/9/2017 7:04:51 PM

Rangoon

Posts: 83
Joined: 9/25/2013
Status: offline

Thank you, Cik!

I did end up hitting the 1500 points mark (major victory), in part perhaps due to some lucky Mk82 drops. I had a bunch take down some remaining buildings after the LGBs did their initial damage. I never totally destroyed the fuel bunkers, but they were in rough shape. Not sure how the scoring works for this, as you pointed out. Didn't lose any assets. My OECM was cranked to 11 and had decent success with shrikes and CBUs/guns on anti-air threats. I even had a few spare LGBs which I tasked to the bulls-eye and runway access points. Mk82s were only moderately effective on a few shelters.

< Message edited by Rangoon -- 2/9/2017 7:16:45 PM >

(in reply to Cik)

Post #: 5

RE: Which weapon for which target? - 2/9/2017 7:23:31 PM

Cik

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Joined: 10/5/2016
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you're welcome buddy, glad to be of help.

major victory is pretty good. triumph (the highest level of victory) is often nigh unobtainable, though it depends on the author of the scenario. the airfield and the most of the structures are really, really tough. the worst part about the whole thing, besides the fact that they are nigh impervious to anything <2000 lb is the fact that i don't think you gain any victory points unless you totally destroy them, either.

scoring though is always kind of relative. if you completed the scenario with no losses, did a lot of damage and your forces performed well, that's a total victory there, regardless of what the scoring says IMO.

< Message edited by Cik -- 2/9/2017 7:24:21 PM >

(in reply to Rangoon)

Post #: 6

RE: Which weapon for which target? - 2/9/2017 8:37:07 PM

Tailhook

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Joined: 1/18/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik
scoring though is always kind of relative. if you completed the scenario with no losses, did a lot of damage and your forces performed well, that's a total victory there, regardless of what the scoring says IMO.

Can't emphasize this enough. Every scenario uses it's own system, if it has one at all. However with a proper understanding of the objective(s)/end state, you can tell when you've done a great job. Don't get too hung up in point values.

(in reply to Cik)

Post #: 7