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Draws/Point Totals

 
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Draws/Point Totals - 4/18/2003 9:51:15 PM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		A couple quick topics from an SPWaW rookie. First, why so many draws? 99% of the scenarios I play end in draws. There's no fun in that. If the case is as someone mentioned when he said "Even though the game says it's a draw, you know who really won", then why isn't the real game scoring done properly? It seems silly to battle for hours and know who the clear winner was, only to have the game tell you it was a draw.

Second, why are victory points for losses determined by pure losses and not by percentage of forces lost? If I'm the German defender and have 25 units (of various types) and am being attacked by 50 Russian units, one Russian unit should be roughly half the point value as one German unit for that scenario. That would mean the loss of one German unit will have a greater impact on the game (tactically and strategically) than losing one Russian unit. I say this because if I'm playing the German in this case and I eliminate 20 or so Russian units, I'm almost guaranteed a draw, regardless of my losses. I just think the individual unit point values should be modified per scenario to account for their importance in that particular game. Maybe that's the way it's already done and I just don't realize it. All I know is I'm getting tired of playing games that result in draw after draw after draw when I know there was a clear winner in each case.
Post #: 1
- 4/19/2003 12:14:16 AM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Victory point scores are also derived from control of the Victory Hexes. Not all VH's are worth the same amount. Some are a per turn value. Each scenario designer can set these amounts. Put your mouse over the VH and see what pops up for info. You can get a idea if the battle is more concerned with losses or occupation of the VH's, by their relative value.

Designers may also set the value of particular units higher or lower than normal to reflect their importance to the task at hand.

For instance, play the newer version of the Stalingrad Campaign and loose a couple of those ammo trucks and you will see what I mean.

THe H2H version of SPWAW has units rated and valued somewhat differently from standard 7.1 . Download that and give it a try. It may be more to your liking.



:)

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Post #: 2
- 4/19/2003 12:19:19 AM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Kirk, there is a pretty good set of tactical guides by Larry Holt available at Tankheads site. It helped me get away from the draw syndrome, somewhat.

http://www.tankhead.ca/SPWaW/downloads.asp

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Post #: 3
- 4/21/2003 1:25:05 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		SPWaW Victory Ratios explained.

Human vs computer
More than 1-3 Decisive Loss
1-3 to 3-1 Draw
3-1 to 7-1 Minor victory
7-1 Higher Major victory

The odds vs human player are a little lower. This is due to the predictable action of the AI in computer generated battles.

Human vs. Human
More than 1-2 Decisive Loss
1-2 to 2-1 Draw
2-1 to 6-1 Minor victory
6-1 Higher Major victory

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Post #: 4
Draws/Point Totals - 4/30/2003 2:54:37 AM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		I understand what the victory requirments are, I'm just frustrated at why they're where they're at. I played a scenario a couple nights ago where I clearly won. I controlled all the objectives and killed a lot more of the enemy than he did of me. The victory point margin was 2.75 to 1. To me it seemed like a clear victory. My point is why even have a victory nametag such as "draw" or "marginal victory" when it's used so infrequently. Why not just publish the victory point totals and let the player judge for himself who won?

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Post #: 5
- 4/30/2003 3:43:37 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Kirk, I don't want to sound superior or snotty or whatever, but perhaps a little more attention to improving you skills in combined arms tactics is in order. If you are expert at SPWAW, then draws will be a thing of the past for you unless you are playing a very well designed scenario.

If I get a draw in a run-of-the-mill scenario, I consider it a humiliating failure on my part. You should be mopping up the floor against the AI in many scenarios and almost all of them if you are playing randomly generated scenarios.

Perhaps if you thought of the scoring system as if it were being graded on a curve. i.e. If everyone scores from 80 to 100% on a test and you got an 85%, did you really get a "B" grade?

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Post #: 6
Draws/Point Totals - 4/30/2003 4:26:04 AM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		I understand I'm not the next coming of Erwin Rommel yet, but I'm asking why the huge draw region from a mathematical standpoint? Since my guess is a large percentage of my games (I only play the historical scenarios) end up somewhere in that 1 to 3 to 3 to 1 range, a large percentage of scenarios end up as draws. I don't know about the rest of people that frequent this board, but when most people start playing a game they're not experts yet. How much fun is it for a newbie to play game after game that end up as draws? Maybe the game needs variable victory conditions based on the skill of the player. Just because a few people out there are experts doesn't mean all the victory conditions should be based on their level of play. I'm a casual SP gamer who gets tired of 99% of my games ending up as draws.

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Post #: 7
Draws - 4/30/2003 6:29:43 AM   
Raskolnikov

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 4/12/2002
From: London, England
Status: offline 		I don't see that it matters what tag SP applies to the result. Surely all that really matters is that the battle itself was enjoyable.

As far as historical scenarios go, for many of them 'Draw' as a result represents a RL outcome; you have done as well as your historical predecessors, and therefore a 'Draw' result is not necessarily so negative. Furthermore, scenarios in which 12:1 overwhelming victories are possible are probably not going to be very exciting to play - they'll be like AI Battles, where you usually end up having slaughtered a couple of thousand grunts and a couple of hundred M4s (;) whoops... should that be Soft Vehicles?), and have probably wasted your time.

'Draw' results in scenarios are probably due to suffering excess losses yourself, more than not securing VHexes or taking out enemy formations; you won, but at too high a price. I always pay close attention to the time available in a scenario and try and work out the most efficient attack possible in the time available - if it saves your forces, it increases your victory (as well as saving your forces, surely an objective for any commander - Soviet excepted).

Small-scale battalion-level combat is not often going to be overwhelmingly decisive; major victories occur when armies clash, not Armored Infantry Platoons.

Raskolnikov

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Post #: 8
Re: Draws - 4/30/2003 6:34:08 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raskolnikov
[B]they'll be like AI Battles, where you usually end up having slaughtered a couple of thousand grunts and a couple of hundred M4s (;) whoops... should that be Soft Vehicles[/B][/QUOTE]

I love you.

Goblin

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Post #: 9
Soft Vehicles - 4/30/2003 6:38:14 AM   
Raskolnikov

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 4/12/2002
From: London, England
Status: offline 		It's not just that M4s are Soft Vehicles... it's the Soft Commanders who use them. Sadly no category for them on the kill sheet.:D

R.

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Post #: 10
Draws/Point Totals - 4/30/2003 7:56:44 AM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		So it doesn't seem odd to anyone but me to have a game where a large percentage of the battles are considered draws? I've played Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader, Squad Leader, and many other wargames thousands of times. In all my 30+ years of wargaming I have played only a handful of draws - until SPWaW. All I'm saying is there should either be a clear victor a large percentage of the time or they should just do away with listing a victor altogether. Just list the points and leave it at that. Someone said in a previous post "But you know who really won the battle". If that's the case, why don't they just tell me? All I know is if I played all those wargames over the years and 80% of them resulted in draws all the time I wouldn't have continued playing them. What's the point in playing any game if the large percentage of contests are draws? I guess I should go back to playing tic-tac-toe where every game is a "cat" game and there's never a winner.

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Post #: 11
Re: Soft Vehicles - 4/30/2003 8:44:21 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raskolnikov
[B]It's not just that M4s are Soft Vehicles... it's the Soft Commanders who use them. Sadly no category for them on the kill sheet.:D

R. [/B][/QUOTE]

Too bad....sissys.... :D :D

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Post #: 12
- 4/30/2003 10:46:49 AM   
zzsteven

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 1/26/2003
Status: offline 		When I first started playing a couple of months ago most of my battles did end in draws..... or losses, but this was just the start of the learning curve. Many scenarios were restarted after a couple of turns when I realized that my tactics were lacking. My first successful scenario, an assualt on a French fortress, may have ended in a draw but I had learned something.... how to move my forces. Learned how to use smoke in another scenario that ended in a draw. My best scenario was a rescue Peipper one. Even though it also ended in a draw all but 5 of my units survived and were headed to the exit hex, just ran out of turns.

Draws are a part of the learning curve. My tactics have changed and I very seldom get a marginal victory now. One day soon I hope to play a PBEM game and of course the learning curve will start all over again...... unless their driving those M4 baby carriages then my victory will be assured. :)

zz

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Post #: 13
Real Life - 4/30/2003 9:22:31 PM   
robot


Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline 		Maybe all those other games werent as good as spwaw. If you win most of your games would you be happy. Not me i would soon quit it. The losses and the draws is what makes me try harder. Obviously your tactics are not good enough in SPWAW to do more then a draw. I have sxeen on this borard several seasoned veterans get draws. Its the scenario you play that is eiyher harder or easier as the case may be. When i first started i very seldom got draws. But i got a lot of losses. That was six yrs ago. Still get a few draws and an occassional loss too. But that is to my own blundering tatics not the game.

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Post #: 14
- 4/30/2003 9:29:35 PM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I'm in the middle of my 1st PBEM, against rbrunsman and I'll be **** glad if I get a draw!!!!!

:D

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Post #: 15
Well I can tell you how to beat Rbrunsman - 4/30/2003 9:45:52 PM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim1954
[B]I'm in the middle of my 1st PBEM, against rbrunsman and I'll be **** glad if I get a draw!!!!!

:D [/B][/QUOTE]

Get him to purchase all ski infantry. :D :eek: :D

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Post #: 16
- 4/30/2003 9:49:58 PM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Well, it's May 1941 on the island of Crete... we don't have ski troops but for some odd reason the generator put rice paddies all over the map!

I'll suggest an alpine battle next time. lol

:D

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Post #: 17
Draws/Point Totals - 4/30/2003 10:11:17 PM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		"Maybe all those other games werent as good as spwaw. If you win most of your games would you be happy. Not me i would soon quit it. The losses and the draws is what makes me try harder. Obviously your tactics are not good enough in SPWAW to do more then a draw."

The first sentence in that statement is completely ludicrous. Are you saying Panzerblitz or Squad Leader aren't good games? They're classics for crying out loud. Heck, all SP is is a computer version of Squad Leader. I dare say many of the games I've played are even better (I can hear people gasping) than SPWaW. At least every time I play one of those games I know who won.

Let's take on the second sentence. I didn't say I wanted to win all my games. I said I wanted a decision, one way or another. Do you watch hockey or soccer? Would you be happy if 80% of the games you attended ended in ties?

The third sentence makes sense, but I feel I can learn more from a loss than a draw.

All I'm saying is that there can be a huge difference on the battlefield in who is doing better than who, yet the end result can be the same. Either I can be kicking butt and have a 2.9 to 1 victory point margin, or I can be getting stomped 1 to 2.9 and the end result will be the same. That just doesn't seem right. Let's forget the historical/replay/wargame aspect and just think about it like any other game like Monopoly or Battleship or something. How many of those games end in ties? All I'm saying is that a draw should be something that happens a very small percentage of the time, regardless of whether I'm an expert or a relative newbie. It shouldn't be the norm, it should be the exception. I'll admit I still have a lot to learn about the game, but when I feel I've won I'd like to know that and when I've gotten stomped I'd like to know that too.

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Post #: 18
- 4/30/2003 11:04:29 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Raskolnikov, you made a very good post. Especially the knock against M4s (where are Jess & Hawk (traitor) to read that and get offended?). :)

Gary, SHUT UP!!!:mad: ;) (Lesson for newbies from a veteran who learned something new the hard way: Ski Troops can't Close Assault.)

You guys that are just starting should practice against the AI to get to know the units and a few tactics, but I'm telling you, PBEM is where SPWAW really is outstanding. I never play against the AI any more (unless its a Mega Campaign while I'm waiting for a PBEM turn to show up in my mailbox). To think of all those years wasted playing since SPI came out just playing the AI. :( Learn the basics and then start playing against a real person. You can ask questions and you'll learn alot faster that way. A Marginal Victory is all the more sweet when you only get them rarely.

Jim, you may get a Draw. A Draw with more points to you. :) You are doing better than you think (I think). Which, of course, is what makes PBEM so awesome. Many times you just don't know exactly how well you are doing until the end.

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Post #: 19
- 4/30/2003 11:11:25 PM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		It may look like I'm doing better from your point of view, but it's a bloody mess on my side. Still, the excitement level is SEVERAL rungs higher going against a live opponent. I like the mega's too but it's not the same.

I like to think of all the time spent against the AI (and there will be more, as you said Bob), as boot camp for the real battles.

:D

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Post #: 20
- 5/1/2003 3:39:53 AM   
WhiteRook

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		I really do have to chime in and say that it is really all about the learning curve in the game. I have found through all my personal years of wargaming experiance, that just because a few games may seem simular and use much the same units, the games still play inherintly differant! Which is a good thing in my book as if all the game I thought sounded good - all played alike, I would feel ripped off big time! :mad:
Speaking as a scenario designer for just about every version of SP I can say that balancing out the VP totals is one if not the most cruical aspect of the secnario's design. I have to think the longest and hardest on this point and more often than not having to go back and tweak settings more times than I had thought would be called for. Just to ensure that the means justify the end results don't ya know! ;) ;)
Again speaking from personal experiance, and not snobby as another poster stated also, when playing the A.I. a draw is usualy the result of not using your forces in some tacticaly proper way. Its really that simple, if the scenario is balanced correctly I must add. ;)
I have noticed that most of the posts to your original question have been very friendly and have been trying to get the point across that its all about the learning curve. Please take what they say as meant in good sprits, because they are. :)
I personaly do not play against other humans as I totaly blow as a H2H player, why I am not sure but have learned to accept the fact. Plus I have this thing about beating a machine no matter what the A.I.'s scope and breadth. :rolleyes:
as an aside, seeing as Jess and Hawk have not chimed in yet, we still know that all Kat drivers are still Sissy's! :D :D

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Post #: 21
- 5/1/2003 5:55:09 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		WhiteRook, good points and thanks for carrying the Banner for Jess and Hawk. It's just not the same picking on M4s if someone isn't there to call us Katz drivers Sissies.:D

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Post #: 22
Draws/Point Totals - 5/1/2003 5:58:06 AM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I already know I'm not an expert at this game yet. That is not the issue. As a newbie I expect to lose until I've taken the time to learn the nuances of the game. Problem is, I don't lose or win. I just feel the range (from 1-3 to 3-1) for draws is too great. I get the feeling people think I'm complaining about not winning enough, but that's not it at all. I just feel a draw represents no clear victor in a battle. In SP that point range just seems too vast to me and completely different from any of the dozens of wargames I've played in my life. Apparently I'm the only person on the planet that feels this way so I guess I'll just shut up. Sorry to have wasted everyones time. I'll just crawl back into my hole now.

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Post #: 23
- 5/1/2003 8:54:09 AM   
radboy223

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 2/18/2001
From: Camden, AR
Status: offline 		SPWAW is not just another of the many games out there that are supposedly about war but are really about just playing a fancier version of "Monopoly or Battleship or something"; It's a game that attempts to come somewhere close to simulating how a real-life battle works(while still being fun to play for those of us who are interested in such things as real wars). "I just feel a draw represents no clear victor in a battle." That's exactly the point, there was [B]often[/B] no clear winner in actual battles.

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Post #: 24
- 5/1/2003 9:01:18 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Don't go anywhere, Kirk!

Let me speak first. I've designed over 1,000 scenarios for all the versions of Steel Panthers and had a lot to do with a lot of projects for the game since the very beginning with SSI in 1993. My gosh! That was 10 years ago! And SP is still alive and well!

Don't be too harsh on yourself because of the draws. Don't be too harsh on the game either.

If there is a finger of blame to be pointed, it might (I SAID "MIGHT") be blamed at some scenario designers. I've reviewed more scenarios from others than I can remember and one flaw that many designers have is making it nearly impossible to win.

I think the guys who worked with me on Mega Campaign Watchtower remember my haggling and reminding them of how important it was to make each battle winnable.

Now those who have done such a thing (made a scenario victory declaration out of reach )meant well when they do this. But it does not eas the frustration of the player.

Now we are into the subject of scenario balance, the key to winning.

Balance not only comes from the choice of forces, the ground on which they do battle, or the skills of the player, but how the objectives are figured.

The scenario designer must figure out a way by juggling objectives and points to assure that a major or decisive victory is possible. He can ONLY do this by testing and re-testing the scenario. Then and ONLY then can he be really sure that it is indeed possible. Now this requires time, patience and some skill mixed with experience.

He may not always get it right but it should be in the ball park. Now if the designer does intentionally set up a scenario so that a win is not possible, he should advise the player of that fact in the intro text. To not do so is quite unfair to the player.

If he is aware of that fact and still chooses to play, then accept the consequences.

Finally, don't let the computer tell you how well you have done. You should have yourself a gut feeling of how well you've done.

IF...

1. You have taken the objectives
2. Kicked the enemy's butt soundly
3. Kept your losses to a reasonable minimum

THEN

You have resounding triumph, Kirk. Pat yourself on the back. You don't need a computer to tell that you have really won. You know it.

So don't allow the computer's bland resume, "draw" upset you. Evaluate your skills as a commander and if in your heart you know you did well, who cares what it says!

You are a winner and you can be proud of it.

Wild Bill

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Post #: 25
- 5/1/2003 9:13:00 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Too true, WB! Some of my favorite scenarios, as you know, are not the tough ones, but the ones where you get to flatten the bad guys but good!

That said, I love a challenge now and again, and have had the 'DRAW' demon emerge when I thought I did quite well, and the score indicated I had(2 to 1 is pretty darn good IMO). I hated it too, but was still pleased with my performance. I refought quite a few, and even with the knowledge of my enemies setup and routes from my previous try, was not able to improve them all that much. I then just ignore the stupid score-screen's label, and just 'know' I kicked butt.

Hang in there Kirk! Try Wittman's Gamble and Wittman's Return! Very enjoyable, and excellent morale boosters!;)

Goblin

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Post #: 26
Listen to Wild Bill... - 5/1/2003 9:16:30 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		you are getting some d@mn fine advice from a true master of the trade. :)

As for "shutting up"....NEVER do that! (unless you're unfairly bashing other members that is...lol ;) ) This forum has some of the best people around and many an answer or advice can be gathered from the vast pool of knowledge that resides here.

Perhaps your point was misunderstood by some...but don't take anything in an overly negative manner. Anyway, take Bill's advice to heart...like I said, his points can't be improved upon! ;)

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Post #: 27
- 5/1/2003 9:36:34 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Thanks Orzel and Goblin, two very proficient SPWAW aficionados!

Let me reiterate as they have done, you are the real final vote in how well you did.

Just don't let a computer score spoil your day! And don't feel intimidated around here. We are good guys, Kirk, we just are quite zealous about what we believe in...WB

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Post #: 28
If I could put in my 2 cents. - 5/1/2003 11:22:05 AM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		Kirk
I have had this same discussion in the past and I tend to agree with you. If its a win call it a win. The points are there. Its easy to see who has won. The World Cup keeps score and calls a win a win but the official results are almost always draws. Looking at that it doesn't make sense to call a victory a draw. IRL, If you have taken the the objective is it a win? If it costs too much in men and equipment to gain that win is it then a win? That is what I think the game is saying when it calls a 3 to 1 victory a marginal victory or a minor victory. To me that is huge. If I did that in "Sorry" or Monopoly it would be huge. In this game?.... If you play for the historical aspect then it may well take a ten to one to get a Victory. Look at Afganistan or Iraq.

But if you are playing the game for a better version of a chess match then.... Its easy. When the King is dead all you can say is.... "Long Live the KIng". I now only look at a the points score. The definition of the victory is immaterial. In WC03, you need only play well enough to win. In my mind that is one point. There are no draws. Play that way if you like.

Play for your own reasons. That is part of the beauty and depth of this game. It is what you want it to be. If you want to be the designer, its there. If you want to play solitare, its there. If you want to play H2H or as teams or on-line live or purely to get the details of history correct as best as humanly possible, that too is there. The more you become involved with the game you discover, and part of its addiction is, the layers that it has There seems to be always one more to discover and just when you think that you have reached the centre core, you discover that someone has added a whole new bulb to you onion and you have a new set of layers to discover. I have yet to see Wild Bill's name in the AAR/DAR but you know that he is well in tune with what is happening and evolving in the game. Me?...I just play. Play for fun.......always.

BTW Welcome to the Forums. :)

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POGO

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Post #: 29
Draws/Point Totals - 5/1/2003 6:56:15 PM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the responses guys. As was previously mentioned more than once, I guess my way of looking at things will be purely based on the point totals from now on. I fully agree that it's a great game. I've been playing it since SP first came out in its original form quite a number of years ago. I call myself a newbie because I've never quite gotten into it at the depth of many others. I'll play a scenario against the computer now and again, but that's been about it. I'd really like to try playing against someone online, but I wouldn't have the foggiest idea how. I play other games H2H online, but from what I understand this game is better as a PBEM game. Anybody know of a SPWaW "looking for opponents" list? It would be fun to see how this game plays against another human being. I know every other computer game I've ever played has always improved tremendously when I played against a live person.

(in reply to Kirk)
Post #: 30
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