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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/13/2017 10:28:49 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Azorn01

Help please with naval invasion. Clearly I need to read the rule carefully again because I dont seem to get it yet. Here is what happened. Japanese move huge fleet with planes 2 naval infantry / marine corps and 1 naval infantry / marine corps, next to Sumatra (NEI) Going to capture that oil. There are no defenders in or around the city of Palembang (also where 2 oil fields are located) *Weather is also fine. I landed 1 6-3 naval / marine corps and expected that there would be 1 notional force, instead there seems to have been 8. I havent yet figured out how it was 8 yet. I am working on that but could use insight on that. I added 2 planes with small ground strike from my carriers, and added shore bombardment. Then...I roled and rolled low (if I recall correctly) and the result was...I lost this awesome naval / marine infantry corps.

Basically this entire thing turned out entirely different than I expected. Any insight / information on what happened here would be awesome. Thanks

Read the section on Notionals. Basic value is 1, plus 1 for a city, plus 1 in friendly ZoC, minus 1 if surprised, minus 1 if Out of Supply (OoS). Terrain effects apply, so defender doubled. Sounds like NEI was not surprised and no friendly ZoC was on the hex or vice versa. It's an NEI city so it's impossible for it to have been OoS.

A major power home country also gets a plus 1 to its notional. Another important rule is the defender can choose to decline the notional and let the attacker take the hex. Why would you ever do that? Because the attacker might be a lone Para or invading Div with other attacking units assisting from an adjacent hex. If you deny the notional, there's no attack and only the Para or Div is left in the hex, perhaps becoming a very easy target for a counterattack.

On the first turn of a Japanese offensive in the Pacific, when the defenders are surprised, the Japanese can take as many non-city islands as they have Divs because the Notionals are worth one minus one for being surprised and since terrain effects come after that, they can do this to mountain and swamp hexes (without cities). But it is even possible against cities on an island if they are also put OoS.
(1 + 1 - 1 - 1 = 0)

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/13/2017 10:31:02 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/14/2017 12:30:37 PM   
Centuur


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Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		Here is RAW:

The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:
• +1 if it is a city hex;
• +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that
controls the hex;
• +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a
friendly corps or army;
• + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
• -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and
• -1 if surprised (see 15.).
The shore bombardment modifier applies to each unit that invades.
Use the modifier from the section of the sea-box the unit invades from
(remembering the effect of weather ~ see 8.2.7).


Notice the part I've put in bold. If you invade f.e. out of the 1 box, the notional unit gets 2 extra factors for each unit which invades of that box. So what we've got here is probably the fact that the three invading units are in the 1 box.

Than the calculation is: Notional unit 1 factor, the city of Palembang adds 1 extra factor, and the three invading units out of the 1 box add 6 factors for a total of 8...

If you make invasions, always make them out of the 3 or 4 box. The two box already adds a +1 per invading unit.


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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/14/2017 3:25:57 PM   
Courtenay


Posts: 4003
Joined: 11/12/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Azorn01

Help please with naval invasion. Clearly I need to read the rule carefully again because I dont seem to get it yet. Here is what happened. Japanese move huge fleet with planes 2 naval infantry / marine corps and 1 naval infantry / marine corps, next to Sumatra (NEI) Going to capture that oil. There are no defenders in or around the city of Palembang (also where 2 oil fields are located) *Weather is also fine. I landed 1 6-3 naval / marine corps and expected that there would be 1 notional force, instead there seems to have been 8. I havent yet figured out how it was 8 yet. I am working on that but could use insight on that. I added 2 planes with small ground strike from my carriers, and added shore bombardment. Then...I roled and rolled low (if I recall correctly) and the result was...I lost this awesome naval / marine infantry corps.

Basically this entire thing turned out entirely different than I expected. Any insight / information on what happened here would be awesome. Thanks

I strongly suspect you were invading from the one box. If you invade from too low a sea box, the defenders get additional notional strength. If you did invade from the one box, two would be added to defender's strength for each unit invading from the one box. (The number in the sea box. In bad weather, add one more for an asterisk.) Also, Palembang is a city, that adds one to the defense. So the notional strength was 1 (base) + 1 (city) + 2 (sea box) = 4. Palembang is a swamp. This doubles the defensive strength. 2x4 = 8.

This is not a an invasion I would expect to work. To take the Dutch East Indies, invade close to the capital, and take that. Then the whole place falls into your hands. On the surprise impulse, you can land in non-city spaces with a single division, and have it automatically succeed, as there is no defender at all.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/19/2017 12:42:13 AM   
IBender

 

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Status: offline 		Ohhh you are exactly right. I went back looked at what was occurring and it matches what you described exactly. Thank you

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/19/2017 4:02:13 PM   
IBender

 

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Status: offline 		Looking for just general thoughts regarding something I notice in many AARs. Seems to me that many AARs come to an end with the allied player conceding the game if / when things turn bad for them, sometime between mid 1940 and 1942. Things seem pretty bad, hopeless I guess. This, however, seems to reflect what occurred in real life. The allies barely hung on, then...American joins the war + Russian slowly tips the tide, and the tide slowly, gradually turns in favor for the allies.. However, in the AARs, the allied player often surrenders either before America enters the war and well before Russia can really do its thing, or very shortly after America enters the war. Why is this? Is it because in this game America isnt as strong as it should be? Is it because people give in to hopelessness? I keep reading AARs to watch a long game and see the impact of America, but there are not that many that play a full game.

Thanks for your thoughts.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/19/2017 5:10:10 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		This is a difficult one to answer. The game is aimed at the conquest of Germany and Italy at the end of J/A 1945 and Japan on the ropes of collapse (as historically happened). To me, there are two things which makes sure that the game ends in an Axis victory:

1. When the USSR and China gets conquered.
2. When the UK and China gets conquered.

Both things are very difficult to be done. The Axis need an awful lot of luck to be able to pull that off. But it can happen. And if that occurs, the Allies can do whatever they want, but with only the USSR and the US in the game, or the US and the CW, the Allies will never pull off a victory at the end of J/A 1945. If one of the above two things happens, the game ends up in a WW I type of warfare, with almost no possible gains for either side on the map. Sure, somewhere in 1946 the US might have produced so many units that they will conquer Japan, but that's about a year after the Allies should have won the game...

Apart from that, one tends to see that the Axis throw the towel more on the board when things aren't going their way. However, to me that's something which is almost always done too early. It's amazing to see the regenerating power of the German army, as long as it has some oil available to them. I've seen quite some games where if one looks at Germany end of 1944 concludes that it's over, but at the end of J/A they still hold factory cities. Same goes for Japan (but Italy is usually out of the game by then...

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/19/2017 5:24:19 PM   
IBender

 

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Status: offline 		See, that makes sense to me. While I have not played a full global game ( I keep restarting as I make mistakes and learn), it does seem to me that one side or the other surrenders too soon. I am to the point where I look at the end of the AAR now and see how far they got in the game before I take the time to read it. Otherwise, its poland, france a bit more then quit. Over and over. Thanks for your insight into this.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/19/2017 11:21:24 PM   
paulderynck


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From: Canada
Status: offline 		I think some Allied players simply fail their morale check. I think the only condition I'd consider throwing in the towel as the Allies would be a complete conquest of Russia. The US and incompletely conquered CW can take back the UK, and China doesn't matter that much, it still needs a large garrison of Japanese troops or eventually it overflows with partisans. Losing Gibraltar is a major hit on the CW but the Allies can come back from that, too.

I really don't understand resigning with the Allies early. First off, you miss out on your turn to go on offense, and secondly the game is rigged production-wise in favor of the Allies. I've played many FTF games through to MJ45 or JA45 and the amount of power the US can throw down every turn with O-chits is phenomenal. As the Allies the one thing you need in abundance is patience. The next most important thing is leaning the value of combining action limits, FREX CW and FF Naval with a US Land, then US Naval with a CW and FF Land. With that you can invade just about anywhere in the world and the Axis cannot garrison everything. I'm a firm believer in an as large as possible FF navy, it can take a lot of pressure off the CW mid-game in terms of guarding the CP lines and replacing lost CPs, and most important reducing the need for the CW to take Navals. Later on FF should build all the ATRs they can get from the USA so again you can combine action limits to make multiple paradrops or have the FF drop the paratroops and the US ATRs assisting with re-orgs. A well-managed Allied juggernaut starting in 1944 is simply amazing to behold.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/19/2017 11:23:25 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/20/2017 2:16:02 PM   
IBender

 

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Status: offline 		I am glad to hear this. I dont mind losing, I just want a good long fight. I suspect you are correct also on all your points.

Can you recommend an AAR that you like and that plays it out for a long time?

Thanks

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/20/2017 7:27:28 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Sorry, others may have to do so, I don't really follow the AARs.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/25/2017 10:31:05 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		If you lose Gibraltar in the board game you have lost unless your opponent becomes suddenly incompetent. Period. I guess in MWIF it's the very same.

I mean, it doesn't mean that you cannot keep on fighting and destroy the axis. You can but after the historical date, which means you lose. Or if you are playing with a date limit, yo will very probably (98%?) not meet enough VP locations when the time comes.

Gibraltar lost means the Med becomes an Axis lake, allowing easy conquest and transport of West Northern Africa and easyly Middle East which can easily mean aligning petrol producing countries (Persia? Irak?), plus it places the CW in a very difficult situation if the Jap player simply cut supply in the Red Sea, in this case, Egypt is doomed.

It also means the Yanks will have to treiner all through Northern Western Africa before a possible attack to Italy. And the restrictions for ships crossing Through Tangiers are huge...

Italy lives one more year, producing for Axis, with increased resources from Africa,this is also an advantage, and the Axis can spare teh units that usually are sent to garrison Italy for this period and use them in Russia or elsewhere.

It can give the Axis one complete year more of oxygen, more or less, before their defeat.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 1/25/2017 10:34:09 AM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/25/2017 10:56:47 AM   
juntoalmar


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From: Valencia
Status: offline 		Jose, maybe Axis turn to Gibraltar after a bad campaign in France, being already late for Barbarossa. This happened to me on a Third Reich game. Barbarossa didn't happened and USSR declared the war at Germany eventually.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/25/2017 12:13:29 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
Joined: 9/7/2011
From: Finland
Status: offline 		In our current game

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4061938&mpage=1&key=

Germany took Gibraltar, but we will see how it ends. It took quite a long time and Axis lost quite a lot units.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/25/2017 4:25:34 PM   
Courtenay


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Status: offline 		If the Axis wants, they can almost certainly take Gibraltar, barring ridiculously bad luck. (In my AAR, the Axis did have ridiculously bad luck, and lost horribly.) This by no means assures that they are winning. The time and effort the Germans put into taking Gibraltar are time and effort that they aren't putting into other things. They question is how much they had to pay to achieve that success.

In the four player game that Mayhemizer is playing right now, I think the Allies are currently winning. In one over-the-board game I played, the Axis took not only Gibraltar but he whole Med, and almost made it Irag. The US came in very early, though, and the Germans got very bad garrison chits, (the US was getting the good ones) and was unable to declare war on the USSR until after the US had invade Spain in 1942, and had retaken most of it. The Germans player resigned in 1942, as he saw himself trapped between the US and and the USSR.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/25/2017 9:45:39 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		With the Allies I have lost Gibraltar and won the game in MJ45. I have also lost Gibraltar and lost the game due to running out of time, but there was one particular turn on the Russian Front where a turn ended on a 1 just as the whole German line cracked open. It might have gone differently. WiF is like that.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/26/2017 12:37:22 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
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Status: offline 		I have seen the Allies come back from losing the UK...

The game is a game of time, not units, or anything else. The amount of time is fixed. Allied casualties don't matter and you don't get any reward for having a big Fleet at the end.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/30/2017 3:25:14 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		Sure they can come back, but as you said it's a game of time and Gibraltar, in my experience (maybe other players agaisnt other rivals may have different experiences), makes the allied have to spend one more year to crack the germans.

Of course anybody can win with this handicap bui in a game as balaced as this is, it would require your opponent to be wide under your level or huge amounts of luck.

For me 1 year more of course doesn't mean that the allies wont win which is what an unexperienced player may see (we know that the allied always wins if time is unlimited unless he is a retard), but we also know you need to have a certain numbers of VPs at the end of the game and sometimes is about 2 months whether you win or lose. 1 year makes it too unbalanced.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 1/31/2017 9:10:03 AM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 1/31/2017 1:19:20 AM   
ashkpa


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Status: offline 		edit out.

< Message edited by ashkpa -- 1/31/2017 1:20:16 AM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/5/2017 5:23:56 PM   
IBender

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 4/18/2014
Status: offline 		I think I have naval invasions down pretty well, especially understanding weather + sea + notionals work. Appreciate the advice and the rules combined made it pretty clear. With that said, one aspect I am unclear on is how supply works for the invading units. What kind of forces should be in my invading group? HQ + couple units, and how supply really works for the invading force. Going through the rules and I am 50 / 50 on fully understanding them.

Thanks in advance

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/5/2017 5:33:26 PM   
AllenK


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From: England
Status: offline 		Playing with Limited Overseas Supply, it shouldn't initially be a problem for invading units as the TRANS/AMPHS they invaded from will become part of the supply chain (assuming other sea zones traversed have CP's in them). You need to make sure you put a CP into the sea-zone before turn-end, unless you plan to leave at least one of them at sea.

I haven't played without LOS, so don't know about that.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/5/2017 5:39:13 PM   
Courtenay


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Status: offline 		For the invasion itself, you do not need an HQ, as the invading units will be on the coast, and can trace directly to the sea area they are invading from. (And from there, trace sea supply as normal.) If, on later impulses, you want to move inland, you will then need to either land an HQ or have captured a port. If there is no inland (you are invading an island), then an HQ will never be necessary.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/5/2017 5:43:36 PM   
IBender

 

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Status: offline 		That helps a lot. Is the following also true: If playing with Limited Overseas Supply then I will need to ensure that 1 "free" or 1 extra" convoy point is in that connecting zea zones to ensure that the units are supplied? Otherwise they are out of supply?

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/5/2017 6:23:51 PM   
Courtenay


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Status: offline 		No. Any CP will do. It may carry resources or build points, as well as supplies. A TRS or an AMPH will also work; however, TRSs and AMPHs in the zero box will have to return to base a the end of the turn.

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/5/2017 6:57:17 PM   
IBender

 

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Status: offline 		Awesome!

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/6/2017 3:41:52 AM   
IBender

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 4/18/2014
Status: offline 		This is a random question that has been on my mind for a good long time now, I just havent taken the time to figure it out really so I figured I would put it up here. Italy in the beginning of the war doesnt seem to have much in the way of production. (its possible I havent set up their convoy points correctly..am unsure on this) I think, if I recall correctly that the first couple times for production, they only have like 4 points to spent (again unless I am doing it wrong) This doesnt seem to be enough to do much with. If this is a correct number of points, how can a country like Italy ever build something like a synth plant? Again I havent looked into this really yet as I seem to just spent what few points they get on something I can get fairly quickly anyway.

Perhaps even a better question might be if anyone has a picture showing a good italian convoy layout to maximize production?

Thanks for advice on this.

< Message edited by Azorn01 -- 2/6/2017 4:29:59 AM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/6/2017 8:37:41 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		Italy does have few points. The only way that the Italians do something is that the Germans give them resources, or much better, build points, since the GE production is more efficient producing. At first GE doesnt have enough resources for their own factories but, aftere invading Poland, France (Spain gives one extra resource then) and the Balkans they usually can spare some.

But anyway, Italy produces so few because of it's efficiency, I believe at the beginning it gets build points= 0,25 * resources. later on, the ratio will change to 0,5, 0,75 and 1 and ths will change as years pass.

It may look crazy to give points to Italy when you want to build up Armor armies, Luftwaffe and wolfpacks, but the Italians need to defend the Med, plus they have some very useful units, like frogmen and others sometimes better than GE, like some early navals, plus they can garrison France for you if necessary, but don't get carried away, cause Italy ends surrendering and those italian units in italian land get demobilized...

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/6/2017 4:57:36 PM >

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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/6/2017 1:53:35 PM   
IBender

 

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Status: offline 		That was very insightful. Thank you that helps a lot.

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Post #: 837
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/6/2017 4:56:56 PM   
Joseignacio


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RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/12/2017 2:40:01 PM   
IBender

 

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Status: offline 		Regarding Oil....I am trying to understand it better. Specifically I am watching japan and usa. Japan started with 4 oil, then I spent 1 now have 3 then I spent 1 now I have 2 oil. Yet the convoys from usa are set up correctly so that I get the oil. I believe it was mentioned there is a delay in getting that oil? Can someone explain this better and point me to the rules explaining it?

Thanks

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Post #: 839
RE: New to the game - Basic Questions - 2/12/2017 2:51:33 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		It's a matter of timing.

The rule book is written in the sequence of things to occur. The sequence of play is that first the units are reorganised (using oil available to the player at that moment), after which the final production phase comes. Oil coming out of trade agreements arrives during the final production phase and is therefore not available for reorganisation.

This was clarified in the FAQ of the board game:

Can CW use Persian and Venezuelan oil
to turn face-up oil dependent units? Or do
they must first convoyed to somewhere to
store for one round?
They must be convoyed to friendly territory
in one turn (you trace from unit to oil, and
you may not trace supply into neutral
territory) before they can be used in a later
turn. Date 12/05/2008
13.5.1: You can only use your own oil to flip your units
face-up.





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