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Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/17/2017 1:05:12 AM

scout1

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From: South Bend, In
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looking for the thread(s) relative to significantly accelerating Japanese aircraft research .... Couldn't find it ... Looking for help .....

Post #: 1

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/17/2017 1:44:00 AM

Lowpe

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Mostly it is in AARs.

The last few pages of Obvert vs Jocke give great insight in what frames really work.

Spidery vs Mr. Kane is another good one.

Obvert vs GreyJoy.

NJP vs Wargmr.

Andav vs WITPQS

Kind of only pointing out finished AARs. Mike Solli has a few. Mr. Kane is always good reading, especially Kane vs GreyJoy.

(in reply to scout1)

Post #: 2

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/17/2017 2:50:25 AM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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Its a rather long and complex topic. Its dependent upon different things. These include the mod/scenario you may be playing. Style of game you play. There are also personal preferences.

For instance, I play stock scen1. In that scenario I like to research the Helen bomber. If I were playing scenario 2 I might change that preference since the Helen is the only plane to use the Ha-34 engine. In that case I may choose to stick with the Sally since the difference between the two isn't that great. In scenario 1 the Ha-34 is used by the Tojo fighter as well. A plane which I plan to produce in numbers. I will therefore ignore the Tony. Now there's a style preference, as there are those here who will say I'm nuts to ignore the Tony. And yadda, yadda, yadda.

Get the picture. Give some more info about your likes/dislikes, and/or which scenario and game-style. I'm sure more info will follow.

Edit: It also helps to know if you know the basics about setting up your research factories. Know why 30 is the recommended level? How many engines does it take to get their research bonus?

< Message edited by rustysi -- 2/17/2017 2:53:04 AM >

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(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 3

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/17/2017 6:32:31 AM

sanderz

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From: Devon, England
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interesting read

< Message edited by sanderz -- 2/17/2017 6:33:32 AM >

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 4

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/17/2017 6:53:00 AM

Chris21wen

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

looking for the thread(s) relative to significantly accelerating Japanese aircraft research .... Couldn't find it ... Looking for help .....

These are the basics as I know them assuming you have R&D set to realistic and PDU ON.

You don�t need to R&D to get a plane. They will arrive on the date defined.
R&D factories are useful only to advance a planes scheduled arrival.
R&D will not produce points until all factories are repaired. Optimal size is 30 per factory.
Production factories will produce anytime as long as 1 factory unit is repaired and there are enough HI points available.
R&D factories can become production facilities once research reaches 100. This can be controlled through the 'Prod' switch for the factory. If ON you have one turn to decide.
R&D and Production factories will upgrade automatically when there's a new upgrade due (along the same upgrade path). You can control this using the 'Upgd' Switch.
Engines are not used in R&D but there is a R&D bonus if the engine pool is >500. This is one point/day for each fully functional factory (30).
You need the right model engine available to produce a plane.

(in reply to scout1)

Post #: 5

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/17/2017 12:40:19 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

looking for the thread(s) relative to significantly accelerating Japanese aircraft research .... Couldn't find it ... Looking for help .....

These are the basics as I know them assuming you have R&D set to realistic and PDU ON.

You don�t need to R&D to get a plane. They will arrive on the date defined.
R&D factories are useful only to advance a planes scheduled arrival.
R&D will not produce points until all factories are repaired. Optimal size is 30 per factory.
Production factories will produce anytime as long as 1 factory unit is repaired and there are enough HI points available.
R&D factories can become production facilities once research reaches 100. This can be controlled through the 'Prod' switch for the factory. If ON you have one turn to decide.
R&D and Production factories will upgrade automatically when there's a new upgrade due (along the same upgrade path). You can control this using the 'Upgd' Switch.
Engines are not used in R&D but there is a R&D bonus if the engine pool is >500. This is one point/day for each fully functional factory (30).
You need the right model engine available to produce a plane.

That is is outright wrong. Size 30 factory, repaired, engine bonus = 2 points of advancement and 1 engine consumed.

Size 60 factory repaired, engine bonus = 2 points of advancement and 1 engine consumed.

Size 15 factory repaired and engine bonuse = random number rolled and half the time 2 points of advancement and 1 engine consumed and the other time no progress and no engine consumed. A random number is rolled each time...so it is not accumulative.

Plus other things you mention are a little simplistic...a great reason to have a r&d facility is not to advance the plane, but to prepare a factory for immediate production. Say you want to build 30 helen transport planes a month, but you haven't r&d it. 30-60 days prior to the arrival convert another r&d factory to Helen KAI and set to repair. You don't have a chance to accelerate it, but you will be producing immediately.

PS: Didn't mean to sound harsh, but there is so much misinformation floating around, feel compelled to correct some of it.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/17/2017 12:45:38 PM >

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 6

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/17/2017 4:24:26 PM

Lokasenna

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It wasn't wrong so much as simply incomplete.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 7

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/18/2017 1:04:02 AM

InfiniteMonkey

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For starters, you understand some key things about Japanese aircraft R&D.
� Aircraft become available without research on their arrival date
� For every 100 research points you accumulate for an aircraft, the arrival date is accelerated one month. There are not any diminishing returns in research. 100 points = one month.
� Research factories produce research points instead of aircraft. They do not consume engines for this point. There's a complicated process that determines how many points a factory produces each day. You can read details here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2825013&mpage=2&key=. Pay special attention to anything posted by michealm (the programmer).
� A repaired research factory will produce 0 to 3 research points per day depending upon its size and a random die roll. The optimal size for a research factory is 30 (Assuming sufficient research factories and sufficient supply for repairing them). Fully repaired, size 30 research factories will always generate 1 research point per day.
� Unlike aircraft factories, research factories only "Produce" a research point if they are fully repaired.
� If you have 500 of the engine that powers the plane you are researching, you get an extra point towards research progress at each factory that produces a research point in a given turn. Research points granted from the engine bonus DO cost you an engine. This is checked at the time research is genereated at each factory, if engine consumption rom this bonus reduces your engine count below 500, you do not get the bonus.
� Each capacity point of a factory will cost 1000 supply to repair.
� Research factories will not repair if you do not have sufficient supply.
� Changing the type of plane being produced or researched at a factory will usually cause the factory to be damaged and the capacity to be lowered. The capacity is reduced more when the number of engines of the original model and new model differ.
� Research and production factories convert to their "upgrade" model without incurring damage. e.g. a fully repaired A6M5 research factory converts to a fully repaired A6M5b research factory (in Scenario 1). A fully repaired production Ki-43-1c factory upgrades to a fully repaired Ki-43-Iia factory with the same capacity when the Ki-43-Iia model becomes available . (you can turn this on and off for each factory (see "Upg" in the industry screen.) You can see what upgrades will benefit from this by looking at the "upgrade to" column on the Aircraft Replacement Pool screen which is accessible from the Intelligence Screen. (Press hotkey "I" then "3" to brings this screen up).
� Research factories do not repair every turn. The chance that an R&D factory will repair is the size of the factory in the number of days til arrival for the aircraft. A size 30 factory will have about a 1 in 12 chance to repair when the you are a year before arrival. It would repair every day (assuming good supply) when you are less than 30 days from arrival.
� Research factories convert to production factories when the aircraft they are researching arrives.
� With Realistic R&D "On", factories cannot be converted from Production to Research or from Research to Production. Realistic R&D "Off" allows MORE R&D shenanigans, not less.
� On average, the time to fully repair an unrepaired factory will be ~63% of the time to arrival. The mathematics are fun, and can be found here:
○ http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3022096&mpage=1&key=
○ http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2908046&mpage=2&key=
○ http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2253970&mpage=2&key=
� Japan has 74 research factories on 12/7/41 in scenario 1

< Message edited by InfiniteMonkey -- 2/18/2017 1:55:08 AM >

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 8

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/18/2017 1:49:52 AM

InfiniteMonkey

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1. The optimal size for an R&D factory is 30. This is because:
a. You get one extra research point from engines PER FACTORY
b. The number of points produced by a factory varies from 0 to 3 per day. If you read michaelm's last post in the link from my previous post, he states that it takes a size 300 factory will guarentee a 2nd point.� Obviously, if you can repair 10 x 30 for the same supply cost, you will get 10 research points per day as opposed to 2. With the engine bonus active for all, you get 20 research poins instead of 3.
2. You can accelerate late models of some airframes very easily.
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the Ha-33 production so that you are building 150-200 extra each month by March 42. (get the pool to 500)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a time: A6M2-N -> A6M5, A6M5 -> A6M5b, A6M5b -> A6M5c, A6M5c -> A6M8. Remember that upgrading along the aircrafts upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED.
d. Plan on flying the A6M8 starting in late 42 instead of . . . 8/45. Yes, this really works.
e. A similar plan works with the Ki-61Ia -> Ki-61 Ib -> Ki-61 Id -> Ki 61-II KAI -> Ki-100-Ia
f. Or Ki-44-Iia to Ki-44-Iic
g. Or Ki43-Iia -> Ki-43-IIIa or Ki-43-IV
h. Etc.
3. Repair is expensive. You might be inclined to run rampant with research, but you simply cannot afford to do that. Consider that if you build each research factory to 30, then you will repair 30 x 74 = 2,220 repair points at a cost of 2,220,000 supply. At game start, you have about 3 million supply and will produce roughly 23375 supply per day. Let's put that number in perspective: 30 days per month * 23375 supply per day * 44 months = 30,855,000 supply. Just repairing your research factories will cost you 2220000/30855000 = 7.19% of the supply you will produce in the entire war - and to get enough engines for all those factories, you will have to expand engine factories by a similar amount to build the planes in those factories or get an engine bonus for research. Fifteen percent of your supply production is gone off the bat. Oh, and I haven't even bothered to account for the increased HI needed to produce the engines. You have to pick your spots for expansion and research. You *really* want to fine tune your research to consume a minimum of supply and get the most bang for your buck.

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)

Post #: 9

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/18/2017 7:29:38 AM

Chris21wen

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

It wasn't wrong so much as simply incomplete.

I did say the BASICS

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 10

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/18/2017 7:32:33 AM

Chris21wen

Posts: 6249
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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

looking for the thread(s) relative to significantly accelerating Japanese aircraft research .... Couldn't find it ... Looking for help .....

These are the basics as I know them assuming you have R&D set to realistic and PDU ON.

You don�t need to R&D to get a plane. They will arrive on the date defined.
R&D factories are useful only to advance a planes scheduled arrival.
R&D will not produce points until all factories are repaired. Optimal size is 30 per factory.
Production factories will produce anytime as long as 1 factory unit is repaired and there are enough HI points available.
R&D factories can become production facilities once research reaches 100. This can be controlled through the 'Prod' switch for the factory. If ON you have one turn to decide.
R&D and Production factories will upgrade automatically when there's a new upgrade due (along the same upgrade path). You can control this using the 'Upgd' Switch.
Engines are not used in R&D but there is a R&D bonus if the engine pool is >500. This is one point/day for each fully functional factory (30).
You need the right model engine available to produce a plane.

That is is outright wrong. Size 30 factory, repaired, engine bonus = 2 points of advancement and 1 engine consumed.

Size 60 factory repaired, engine bonus = 2 points of advancement and 1 engine consumed.

Size 15 factory repaired and engine bonuse = random number rolled and half the time 2 points of advancement and 1 engine consumed and the other time no progress and no engine consumed. A random number is rolled each time...so it is not accumulative.

Plus other things you mention are a little simplistic...a great reason to have a r&d facility is not to advance the plane, but to prepare a factory for immediate production. Say you want to build 30 helen transport planes a month, but you haven't r&d it. 30-60 days prior to the arrival convert another r&d factory to Helen KAI and set to repair. You don't have a chance to accelerate it, but you will be producing immediately.

PS: Didn't mean to sound harsh, but there is so much misinformation floating around, feel compelled to correct some of it.

I should have said not used per aircraft, but as I said at the beginning it was the basics.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 11

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/18/2017 8:59:41 PM

rustysi

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From: LI, NY
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InfinateMonkey's posts were very informative and AFAIK correct, but I have a few things to add.

quote:

� Each capacity point of a factory will cost 1000 supply to repair.
� Research factories will not repair if you do not have sufficient supply.

This is true, but for clarity I would like to add that you need to have the supply at the base where the R&D factory is located and it must be >10k for the 'repair' to occur.

quote:

� Japan has 74 research factories on 12/7/41 in scenario 1

Japan in fact has 77 research factories. TBH though WRT the Mavis-L, the Rufe, and the Nick R&D factories, they go straight to production when they get there. That will leave you 74. At least that's how I do it.

quote:

c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a time: A6M2-N -> A6M5, A6M5 -> A6M5b, A6M5b -> A6M5c, A6M5c -> A6M8. Remember that upgrading along the aircrafts upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED.
d. Plan on flying the A6M8 starting in late 42 instead of . . . 8/45. Yes, this really works.
e. A similar plan works with the Ki-61Ia -> Ki-61 Ib -> Ki-61 Id -> Ki 61-II KAI -> Ki-100-Ia
f. Or Ki-44-Iia to Ki-44-Iic
g. Or Ki43-Iia -> Ki-43-IIIa or Ki-43-IV

Keep in mind that this practice is frowned on by many. You are taking advantage of a game option that is probably not intended. In short its a practice that would be referred to as 'gamey'. I've only played as Japan as yet and I don't do it, and I've been aware of the possibility of its use since I started playing. The preferred method is to bring each model to a possible production before you begin research on the next model. Now how you play is up to you, but you must clear such things with your opponent before you begin playing. If he/she says OK then fine, if not you need to find a different opponent if that's how you wish to play. To say nothing will more than likely lead to a broken game and trust. I know if I were the Allies and I saw an A6M8 in Nov. '42 it would be game over with a question of why you had wasted my time.

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Post #: 12

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/20/2017 3:46:02 PM

adarbrauner

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Worth being being made a sticky thread.

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 13

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/20/2017 4:03:05 PM

goodboyladdie

Posts: 3469
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From: Rendlesham, Suffolk
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For the record I am the opponent in question and suggested this to Scott. As far as I am concerned, it is up to him what he spends his finite resources on. Just because in real life the Japs made serious errors in what they produced, does not mean that he has to. As his pilots are so precious and he cannot really afford to train loads more, armour in his planes is a no-brainer as far as I can see. Same thing with utilising an existing engine with the Ki-61 airframe - how did it take so long for the Japs to see it? Scott cannot afford to do any more than a couple of these anyway and I have complete faith in his sense of fairness and proportion, after playing him since 2005.

Besides, he needs all the help he can get...

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Art by the amazing Dixie

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Post #: 14

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/21/2017 1:10:48 AM

scout1

Posts: 2899
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From: South Bend, In
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quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

For the record I am the opponent in question and suggested this to Scott. As far as I am concerned, it is up to him what he spends his finite resources on. Just because in real life the Japs made serious errors in what they produced, does not mean that he has to. As his pilots are so precious and he cannot really afford to train loads more, armour in his planes is a no-brainer as far as I can see. Same thing with utilising an existing engine with the Ki-61 airframe - how did it take so long for the Japs to see it? Scott cannot afford to do any more than a couple of these anyway and I have complete faith in his sense of fairness and proportion, after playing him since 2005.

Besides, he needs all the help he can get...

OMG .... it's really been 12 years ... ?

(in reply to goodboyladdie)

Post #: 15

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/21/2017 1:22:00 AM

John 3rd

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From: La Salle, Colorado
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Don't forget one ALSO has to have the ENGINES as well!

I was ready to produce the Sam in April 1944 but had to wait to May because the engines didn't advance quite as fast as the airframe.

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Post #: 16

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/21/2017 12:12:26 PM

goodboyladdie

Posts: 3469
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From: Rendlesham, Suffolk
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

For the record I am the opponent in question and suggested this to Scott. As far as I am concerned, it is up to him what he spends his finite resources on. Just because in real life the Japs made serious errors in what they produced, does not mean that he has to. As his pilots are so precious and he cannot really afford to train loads more, armour in his planes is a no-brainer as far as I can see. Same thing with utilising an existing engine with the Ki-61 airframe - how did it take so long for the Japs to see it? Scott cannot afford to do any more than a couple of these anyway and I have complete faith in his sense of fairness and proportion, after playing him since 2005.

Besides, he needs all the help he can get...

OMG .... it's really been 12 years ... ?

Yep! Surprised me too.

_____________________________

Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to scout1)

Post #: 17

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/21/2017 2:56:33 PM

Revthought

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From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
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quote:

ture. Give some more info about your likes/dislikes, and/or which scenario and game-style. I'm sure more info will follow.

I will get around to playing the Japanese when the game allows me to waste time and precious resources on Japan's notion that it would manufacture a Tiger tank variant.

_____________________________

Playing at war is a far better vocation than making people fight in them.

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Post #: 18

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/21/2017 6:26:15 PM

InfiniteMonkey

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Joined: 9/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

quote:

ture. Give some more info about your likes/dislikes, and/or which scenario and game-style. I'm sure more info will follow.

I will get around to playing the Japanese when the game allows me to waste time and precious resources on Japan's notion that it would manufacture a Tiger tank variant.

Why not hold out for the M1A2 Abrams, the F-22, and the V-22?

(in reply to Revthought)

Post #: 19

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/21/2017 6:36:47 PM

Revthought

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From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

Why not hold out for the M1A2 Abrams, the F-22, and the V-22?

Well, the Japanese at least purchased a Tiger tank, and had planned for its shipment to Japan, along with its design specifications and the right to produce it. It cost the Imperial Government 600,000 marks.

In fact, it was sitting in Marseilles waiting for submarine transport to Japan on June 6th, 1944. The Germans hadn't quite figured out how they were going to disassemble the tank for transport in the submarine when Overlord started. As a result, the Germans leased the tank back from the Japanese government for use against the Allies. I believe it was eventually lost in France.

All that said, you might be on to something! I wish I was artistically inclined so I could draw up a scene of IJA soldiers riding around on an M1A2!

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Post #: 20

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/21/2017 7:57:48 PM

adarbrauner

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I heard or read that that was a Panther tank actually.

(in reply to Revthought)

Post #: 21

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/21/2017 8:18:02 PM

Zorch

Posts: 7087
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

Why not hold out for the M1A2 Abrams, the F-22, and the V-22?

Well, the Japanese at least purchased a Tiger tank, and had planned for its shipment to Japan, along with its design specifications and the right to produce it. It cost the Imperial Government 600,000 marks.

In fact, it was sitting in Marseilles waiting for submarine transport to Japan on June 6th, 1944. The Germans hadn't quite figured out how they were going to disassemble the tank for transport in the submarine when Overlord started. As a result, the Germans leased the tank back from the Japanese government for use against the Allies. I believe it was eventually lost in France.

All that said, you might be on to something! I wish I was artistically inclined so I could draw up a scene of IJA soldiers riding around on an M1A2!

'That way it comes under the monthly current budget, not the capital accounts budget.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd9NQxIeAAc (at the end)

(in reply to Revthought)

Post #: 22

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/22/2017 10:25:41 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

For the record I am the opponent in question and suggested this to Scott. As far as I am concerned, it is up to him what he spends his finite resources on. Just because in real life the Japs made serious errors in what they produced, does not mean that he has to. As his pilots are so precious and he cannot really afford to train loads more, armour in his planes is a no-brainer as far as I can see. Same thing with utilising an existing engine with the Ki-61 airframe - how did it take so long for the Japs to see it? Scott cannot afford to do any more than a couple of these anyway and I have complete faith in his sense of fairness and proportion, after playing him since 2005.

Besides, he needs all the help he can get...

And as I've always stated when players agree anyway you play is fine.

_____________________________

(in reply to goodboyladdie)

Post #: 23

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/23/2017 12:28:34 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

I heard or read that that was a Panther tank actually.

There was a picture a few months back on this forum showing the Tiger I tank with Rising Sun meatball on it. The IJA might have also looked at the Panther - a much more practical tank to operate, but, like the Tiger, poorly designed for rapid maintenance/repair.

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(in reply to adarbrauner)

Post #: 24

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/23/2017 12:39:59 AM

Canoerebel

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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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A few days ago, my auto-minded son told me about Mercedes going through a massive redesign of one of its vehicles in the mid 1980s. The changes included lights (green, yellow, red) that indicated the oil level (state of the art stuff, at the time). After changing the oil, a mechanic then had to flip a switch to reset the light to "green." The engineers put that switch somewhere behind the engine. In order to get access to it, the auto repair guy had to loosen the engine mount and move the engine, thus making a simple oil change incredibly expensive.

Germany engineering is fabulous (I hear, though I've never owned a state-of-the-art German vehicle, airplane or tank), but sometimes the littlest things....

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 25

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/23/2017 12:55:25 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A few days ago, my auto-minded son told me about Mercedes going through a massive redesign of one of its vehicles in the mid 1980s. The changes included lights (green, yellow, red) that indicated the oil level (state of the art stuff, at the time). After changing the oil, a mechanic then had to flip a switch to reset the light to "green." The engineers put that switch somewhere behind the engine. In order to get access to it, the auto repair guy had to loosen the engine mount and move the engine, thus making a simple oil change incredibly expensive.

Germany engineering is fabulous (I hear, though I've never owned a state-of-the-art German vehicle, airplane or tank), but sometimes the littlest things....

Sometimes I think the designs must be a way of making sure the dealerships can charge huge amounts for labour and thus keep their loyalty to Mercedes (or whatever manufacturer). I remember having a tail light go out (can't remember which car model though), and the only non-destructive way to change it required removal of body panels to expose the back of the tail light module, which then had to be totally removed before you could get to the bulb! And of course every auto maker has their own proprietary bulbs! It's a plot, I say!

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 26

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/23/2017 2:36:05 AM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A few days ago, my auto-minded son told me about Mercedes going through a massive redesign of one of its vehicles in the mid 1980s. The changes included lights (green, yellow, red) that indicated the oil level (state of the art stuff, at the time). After changing the oil, a mechanic then had to flip a switch to reset the light to "green." The engineers put that switch somewhere behind the engine. In order to get access to it, the auto repair guy had to loosen the engine mount and move the engine, thus making a simple oil change incredibly expensive.

Germany engineering is fabulous (I hear, though I've never owned a state-of-the-art German vehicle, airplane or tank), but sometimes the littlest things....

Sometimes I think the designs must be a way of making sure the dealerships can charge huge amounts for labour and thus keep their loyalty to Mercedes (or whatever manufacturer). I remember having a tail light go out (can't remember which car model though), and the only non-destructive way to change it required removal of body panels to expose the back of the tail light module, which then had to be totally removed before you could get to the bulb! And of course every auto maker has their own proprietary bulbs! It's a plot, I say!

It definitely is... on the luxury lines. Buy a Ford or a Chevy and it's not that way.

Cadillac, BMW, and Mercedes have always been that way.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 27

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/23/2017 5:27:25 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

These days with LED lights, the bulbs stand a good chance of lasting the life of the car.

There was a story I read a while back that Pontiac produced a new car in the 60s with fenders that extended down over the back wheels. A month or so after starting production they discovered the back wheels couldn't be removed without cutting the fender. They had to do a recall and modify the fenders. They didn't discover the problem because the wheels were installed before the body was mated with the frame.

Bill

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(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 28

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/23/2017 6:51:32 PM

Revthought

Posts: 523
Joined: 1/14/2009
From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

I heard or read that that was a Panther tank actually.

It is actually quite a complicated story. The Japanese did purchase a Panther, 2 Panzer IIIs, and a Tiger I from Germany; However, the only tanks that were actually "delivered" were the Tiger and the Panzer IIIs (the Panzer IIIs being the only ones to make it to Japan).

One of the researchers at Wargaming (World of Tanks, World of Warships, and World of Warplanes guys) wrote a great little article about the Japanese Tiger. You can read it here

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Playing at war is a far better vocation than making people fight in them.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 29

RE: Japanese A/C Research Accleration thread - 2/23/2017 9:29:08 PM

bomccarthy

Posts: 414
Joined: 9/6/2013
From: L.A.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A few days ago, my auto-minded son told me about Mercedes going through a massive redesign of one of its vehicles in the mid 1980s. The changes included lights (green, yellow, red) that indicated the oil level (state of the art stuff, at the time). After changing the oil, a mechanic then had to flip a switch to reset the light to "green." The engineers put that switch somewhere behind the engine. In order to get access to it, the auto repair guy had to loosen the engine mount and move the engine, thus making a simple oil change incredibly expensive.

Germany engineering is fabulous (I hear, though I've never owned a state-of-the-art German vehicle, airplane or tank), but sometimes the littlest things....

Sometimes I think the designs must be a way of making sure the dealerships can charge huge amounts for labour and thus keep their loyalty to Mercedes (or whatever manufacturer). I remember having a tail light go out (can't remember which car model though), and the only non-destructive way to change it required removal of body panels to expose the back of the tail light module, which then had to be totally removed before you could get to the bulb! And of course every auto maker has their own proprietary bulbs! It's a plot, I say!

It definitely is... on the luxury lines. Buy a Ford or a Chevy and it's not that way.

Cadillac, BMW, and Mercedes have always been that way.

Not always - years ago a tail lamp bulb burned out on my 2001 BMW 330i. The dash display showed the location of the bad bulb and the owners handbook showed how to reach the bulb from inside the trunk/boot (an access panel that unscrewed with a coin). The operation took ten minutes and a $2 bulb from the local Pep Boys.

This was a major contrast with replacing a front daytime running lamp on my 1998 Camaro - the bulb wasn't expensive but it took an hour to figure out a way to get a socket wrench to the back of the light from underneath the front air dam, with the help of a handheld mirror and a flashlight.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 30